Why John Beck is Likely to Win the Job

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Look most of you, I shifted through a lot of quotes about both QBs, I'd say though these are the most comprehensive about Beck that I've noticed from both Shannys. We are going back and forth about Beck with speculation about what Shanny must think but some of it is addressed pretty well right from the horses mouth. And if you notice the Bulger comment, Gruden said that Beck reminds him of Bulger. It would seem to be a heck of a coincidence of Gruden didn't get that thought from talking to Shanny.

From Kyle with some editorial at the end from ESPN:

"Anybody who watched him in college, he's a hell of a quarterback," Shanahan said. "If you look at his career, he really hasn't had an opportunity to show that he can or cannot do it. But everything we see in practice, everything I've seen with him, it's the exact same that he showed in college. He's a very good thrower. He can get rid of it quick -- very similar to Marc Bulger in his throwing motion, how he can just get rid of it at any time. He's got a lot of zip on his ball. He does have a strong arm. And when it comes to his mobility, he'll surprise people. He can move around in the pocket, he can outflank the defense, and he can move the chains with his feet, too."

This is why the Redskins want to see Beck, even having seen Grossman do well in his first crack at it. They believe Beck's athleticism brings an element that Grossman does not. What they don't know is whether Beck can handle the opportunity, since they don't think he's ever had it.

From Mike with some editorial at the end from ESPN

"He's very confident," Shanahan said. "He believes in himself, and he should, because he's a talented guy who should be a starting quarterback in the NFL. Now, we've got to see how he plays when the lights come on. We'll put him in the game and see how he handles the pressure of being the guy. If he can handle the pressure, we know he's capable from an athletic standpoint."

That's the word both Shanahans use when they talk about Beck -- "know," not "think." Kyle and Mike Shanahan project absolute confidence in their evaluation of Beck. They say the four games he started for the 2007 Dolphins -- a 1-15 team that ranks as one of the worst ever -- are a poor gauge.

"I've been doing this for a few years. I know people that can play," Mike Shanahan told me. "He's an excellent athlete. He's got a quick release. He can anticipate throws. He's a natural leader. Extremely intelligent. So I don't even worry about what people say. I know John Beck can play in this league. Why hasn't he played? Why hasn't he had a chance? I really don't care what the different thought processes are, but I know John can play in this league. He hasn't had a chance. Everybody needs a supporting cast, so we'll do the best we can to give him a good supporting cast -- him and Rex -- and give those guys a chance to compete."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/29614/what-the-redskins-see-in-john-beck

Skinsinparadise,

That's an excellent post and set of quotes. Probably the most compelling single post I've seen, together with additional comments from the ESPN article behind the link.

If anyone wants to make the case for Beck, this is the way to do it. I find it very persuasive. It doesn't change my views of Beck, but it's persuasive about the conviction of the Shanahans and their belief in Beck.

I don't think I'm wrong about Grossman and what he can do with this offense. However, if the Shanahans believe in Beck to this degree, that may be all that matters.

Nice job!

---------- Post added August-31st-2011 at 09:48 PM ----------

One caveat I'll throw in .....

This article was written after Grossman's first game, prior to the Colts game (Beck's first game). So, this quote from Mike stands out:

"Now, we've got to see how he plays when the lights come on. We'll put him in the game and see how he handles the pressure of being the guy. If he can handle the pressure, we know he's capable from an athletic standpoint."

I didn't really get on the Grossman horse until having the chance to see Beck play against the Colts. I was very disappointed. (Others were not, I realize.)

So, a balanced view says that your ESPN article is a very compelling insight into the thinking of Mike and Kyle Shanahan before seeing Beck in an actual game this year.

Did that view hold up? I have no idea. But, I think the Shanahans have been much less gushy about Beck since that time. Certainly Beck has played well, but I think Grossman has played much better, in tougher situations. I still think this can't be lost on the Shanahans.

If actual games matter, I can't see how Grossman loses. If it's more about what the Shanahans think Beck may become, sure. Potential is always undefeated.

[wishful]

If its beck so be it.rex will be fine and be with another team next season and will still be looking for a qb

[cmman848]

If Shanahan is sold on Beck I think we have to trust that he is making the right decision for the team. If Beck does struggle, I think it will be interesting to see how Shanahan sticks with him or not. I would not be opposed to "going with the hot hand" if that would lead us to more success, although it is unconventional and could cause problems itself.... I think Beck shows signs that he could be an effective starter, but can he, a QB who hasn't started in the league since 07, be an effective consistent QB for this team over a 16 game season? Grossman will have some games where he looks as great as he did against Pittsburgh (Yes it was a preseason game), but will also have games where he is totally off.

[SWFLSkins]

Yeah but Rypien could connect on the deep ball, Campbell misses every one he throws.

And the point is, Ryp had the time..

[cmman848]

If its beck so be it.rex will be fine and be with another team next season and will still be looking for a qb

Not so sure about Rex, he didnt have any other teams going for him and why he took the contract with the Skins. Really Beck is a win-win IMO. If he's good, we'll do alright this year pending special teams and defense. If Beck falls flat, we'll be in on the Luck sweepstakes.

[joeknows]

as long as they can get him to throw a good deep ball occasionally i dont care.i just know i am sick to death of dink and dunk check down BS.....

[santanathegreat]

Look most of you, I shifted through a lot of quotes about both QBs, I'd say though these are the most comprehensive about Beck that I've noticed from both Shannys. We are going back and forth about Beck with speculation about what Shanny must think but some of it is addressed pretty well right from the horses mouth. And if you notice the Bulger comment, Gruden said that Beck reminds him of Bulger. It would seem to be a heck of a coincidence of Gruden didn't get that thought from talking to Shanny.

From Kyle with some editorial at the end from ESPN:

"Anybody who watched him in college, he's a hell of a quarterback," Shanahan said. "If you look at his career, he really hasn't had an opportunity to show that he can or cannot do it. But everything we see in practice, everything I've seen with him, it's the exact same that he showed in college. He's a very good thrower. He can get rid of it quick -- very similar to Marc Bulger in his throwing motion, how he can just get rid of it at any time. He's got a lot of zip on his ball. He does have a strong arm. And when it comes to his mobility, he'll surprise people. He can move around in the pocket, he can outflank the defense, and he can move the chains with his feet, too."

This is why the Redskins want to see Beck, even having seen Grossman do well in his first crack at it. They believe Beck's athleticism brings an element that Grossman does not. What they don't know is whether Beck can handle the opportunity, since they don't think he's ever had it.

From Mike with some editorial at the end from ESPN

"He's very confident," Shanahan said. "He believes in himself, and he should, because he's a talented guy who should be a starting quarterback in the NFL. Now, we've got to see how he plays when the lights come on. We'll put him in the game and see how he handles the pressure of being the guy. If he can handle the pressure, we know he's capable from an athletic standpoint."

That's the word both Shanahans use when they talk about Beck -- "know," not "think." Kyle and Mike Shanahan project absolute confidence in their evaluation of Beck. They say the four games he started for the 2007 Dolphins -- a 1-15 team that ranks as one of the worst ever -- are a poor gauge.

"I've been doing this for a few years. I know people that can play," Mike Shanahan told me. "He's an excellent athlete. He's got a quick release. He can anticipate throws. He's a natural leader. Extremely intelligent. So I don't even worry about what people say. I know John Beck can play in this league. Why hasn't he played? Why hasn't he had a chance? I really don't care what the different thought processes are, but I know John can play in this league. He hasn't had a chance. Everybody needs a supporting cast, so we'll do the best we can to give him a good supporting cast -- him and Rex -- and give those guys a chance to compete."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/29614/what-the-redskins-see-in-john-beck

Excellent post, SkinsinParadise. You just owned a whole bunch of people with this post.

Glad to see that the Shanny's see Beck in the same light as I do. A mobile athlete with a good accurate ball with zip. Give that man a chance! No more losers like Rex Grossman behind center please!

[ouvan59]

I didn't really get on the Grossman horse until having the chance to see Beck play against the Colts. I was very disappointed. (Others were not, I realize.).

That's utter horse crap and you know it. You were pounding the Grossman drum well before the Colts game. You were beating it in February if I recall and maybe before that. And I'm certain you were disappointed in Beck's performance but not because he did poorly but because he's a huge threat to your boy Rex.

[BADKCLARK]

That's utter horse crap and you know it. You were pounding the Grossman drum well before the Colts game. You were beating it in February if I recall and maybe before that. And I'm certain you were disappointed in Beck's performance but not because he did poorly but because he's a huge threat to your boy Rex.

This says it all. How can any reasonable person look at the Colts game and not see how Beck completely outplayed Grossman? Singling out that one game, I just don't get it. Beck made no mistakes and led the Colts to all of their points. Rex did nothing but end up throwing an interception (2nd on 2nd stringers). Now, I'm not coming down on Rex, but sheesh. Disappointed?

For the Colts game

Beck's rating: 101.0

Grossman: 46.5

Really?

What else is interesting.

We all know Beck started on the 2nd worst team in NFL history for 4 games. And yet, his overall career QBR is only 9 points shy of veteran Grossman.

Grossman - 70.9

Beck - 62.0

Considering all the experience Grossman has had, and how limited Beck's experience is, I'm surprised Grossman isn't mopping the floor with Beck. I mean...he's a super-bowler, right?

Knowing, and having followed Beck for years, give him a full season, and I can all but guarantee his QBR is going to go up.

Ya'll just don't know what kind of gem you've got in DC right now. <queue the Goonie theme music>

[Newera]

This says it all. How can any reasonable person look at the Colts game and not see how Beck completely outplayed Grossman? Singling out that one game, I just don't get it. Beck made no mistakes and led the Colts to all of their points. Rex did nothing but end up throwing an interception (2nd on 2nd stringers). Now, I'm not coming down on Rex, but sheesh. Disappointed?

For the Colts game

Beck's rating: 101.0

Grossman: 46.5

Really?

What else is interesting.

We all know Beck started on the 2nd worst team in NFL history for 4 games. And yet, his overall career QBR is only 9 points shy of veteran Grossman.

Grossman - 70.9

Beck - 62.0

Considering all the experience Grossman has had, and how limited Beck's experience is, I'm surprised Grossman isn't mopping the floor with Beck. I mean...he's a super-bowler, right?

Knowing, and having followed Beck for years, give him a full season, and I can all but guarantee his QBR is going to go up.

Ya'll just don't know what kind of gem you've got in DC right now. <queue the Goonie theme music>

I agree, I think Beck is going to turn out to be "Really Good." He just needs playing time. Elite NFL quarterback in next two years.

[ncr2h]

This says it all. How can any reasonable person look at the Colts game and not see how Beck completely outplayed Grossman? Singling out that one game, I just don't get it. Beck made no mistakes and led the Colts to all of their points. Rex did nothing but end up throwing an interception (2nd on 2nd stringers). Now, I'm not coming down on Rex, but sheesh. Disappointed?

For the Colts game

Beck's rating: 101.0

Grossman: 46.5

Really?

What else is interesting.

We all know Beck started on the 2nd worst team in NFL history for 4 games. And yet, his overall career QBR is only 9 points shy of veteran Grossman.

Grossman - 70.9

Beck - 62.0

Considering all the experience Grossman has had, and how limited Beck's experience is, I'm surprised Grossman isn't mopping the floor with Beck. I mean...he's a super-bowler, right?

Knowing, and having followed Beck for years, give him a full season, and I can all but guarantee his QBR is going to go up.

Ya'll just don't know what kind of gem you've got in DC right now. <queue the Goonie theme music>

1. Beck made several mistakes in the Colts game, including taking at least 2 unnecessary sacks and checking down with open receivers down field. He played better than Grossman that game, but the qb rating formula vastly overstates the difference in the two qbs' play during that game. Grossman had several good plays negated by drops and penalties, while beck had drives extended by penalties and long runs.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've been following Beck for years. After being drafted by the same FO that put together one of the worst teams in recent memory, he started only 3 games. The offense scored 0 tds during his time as qb during those 3 starts. He was pulled after an unforced fumble of his was returned for a td. He had 3 interceptions and 7 fumbles in basically 3 games worth of action. He went on to play uninspiringly (until this season) during the preseason for several teams. In short, there hasn't been much to follow.

Beck has been a pleasant surprise this preseason, but I would much rather see if we can get the best out of Rex Grossman than basically start from scratch with a 30 year old beck. Grossman has at least shown flashes in his career - Beck hasn't.

[Newera]

1. Beck made several mistakes in the Colts game, including taking at least 2 unnecessary sacks and checking down with open receivers down field. He played better than Grossman that game, but the qb rating formula vastly overstates the difference in the two qbs' play during that game. Grossman had several good plays negated by drops and penalties, while beck had drives extended by penalties and long runs.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've been following Beck for years. After being drafted by the same FO that put together one of the worst teams in recent memory, he started only 3 games. The offense scored 0 tds during his time as qb during those 3 starts. He was pulled after an unforced fumble of his was returned for a td. He had 3 interceptions and 7 fumbles in basically 3 games worth of action. He went on to play uninspiringly (until this season) during the preseason for several teams. In short, there hasn't been much to follow.

Beck has been a pleasant surprise this preseason, but I would much rather see if we can get the best out of Rex Grossman than basically start from scratch with a 30 year old beck. Grossman has at least shown flashes in his career - Beck hasn't.

Dude, read this article and get some real insight from the Shanahan's about Beck. And, how they don't even consider those games his rookie year . . .

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/43451/what-the-redskins-see-in-john-beck

Two sacks. Two of those sacks he virtually had no time as Trent Williams wiffed twice inside the ten.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan,

Suppose Shanahan goes with Grossman against the Giants. What will you conclude by that decision?

Pelado's Post 448 answers this question.

Thanks, Pelado.

[polywog999]

Old Fan, every time you start a John Beck thread, it only encourages Mike Shanahan to fall deeper in love with him.

Love = restraining order.

Everyone knows it, no one says it, otherwise Hallmark would go under and take the economy with it.

[ouvan59]

1. Beck made several mistakes in the Colts game, including taking at least 2 unnecessary sacks and checking down with open receivers down field. He played better than Grossman that game, but the qb rating formula vastly overstates the difference in the two qbs' play during that game. Grossman had several good plays negated by drops and penalties, while beck had drives extended by penalties and long runs..

Cite me specific examples of this please. It may have happened but there was no evidence of it when I went back and watched the replay. The cameras don't show the deeper secondary. And the check down thing has been so overblown it's not funny. He's not only averaging more yards per pass attempt than Rex, he's averaging more yards a completion. I'm sure you Rexophiles will find a way to discredit that as well. I really don't have a problem with people thinking Rex is the best option but the amount of spin and misinformation that some people throw out there just to tear down Beck is ridiculous. . .

[Oldfan]

.

The Wogger: Old Fan, every time you start a John Beck thread, it only encourages Mike Shanahan to fall deeper in love with him.

Teaching members of this board to ignore bandwagon opinions on quarterbacks and grade them on tangible evidence has been my mission in life since joining in September 2005.

Mike Shanahan obviously does that. He’s going to give John Beck the chance to prove that the bandwagon opinion on him is wrong. Beck is the standard bearer for Mike’s famous ego and mine, less famous but just as strong.

[Mahons21]

Cite me specific examples of this please. It may have happened but there was no evidence of it when I went back and watched the replay. The cameras don't show the deeper secondary. And the check down thing has been so overblown it's not funny. He's not only averaging more yards per pass attempt than Rex, he's averaging more yards a completion. I'm sure you Rexophiles will find a way to discredit that as well. I really don't have a problem with people thinking Rex is the best option but the amount of spin and misinformation that some people throw out there just to tear down Beck is ridiculous. . .

I took the time to do a very brief charting of the Indy game a couple of weeks ago. Since the argument has been that Indy plays a cover-2 which doesn't leave anything open down-field, I went through the film and only included plays that were blatantly not cover-2. There were 5 instances of this, if you know where to find Dirtbag's cut-up they fall at the 1:08, 2:15, 2:45, 3:40, 4:55 marks. In three of these instances myself, and another member who was in strong favor of Beck noticed receivers running open down-field.

Now before someone goes ham on me, I'm not using this small sample size to prove anything. Ouvan asked for examples I'm giving him the one's I can think of.

I also wouldn't take any quotes out of Redskins park too literally. This past off-season Oldfan was able to convince a large number of the masses that Shannahan wasn't gonna re-build either, many of these posters and IIRC OF himself used quotes directly from BA and MS' mouth to support their opinion, though it should be noted this is not how they formed their opinions. Just as I told them months ago, don't listen to what our FO does, pay attention to what they do.

[ncr2h]

Dude, read this article and get some real insight from the Shanahan's about Beck. And, how they don't even consider those games his rookie year . . .

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/43451/what-the-redskins-see-in-john-beck

Two sacks. Two of those sacks he virtually had no time as Trent Williams wiffed twice inside the ten.

On those 2 sacks he had enough time to hit his back step, see that his first read was open, and throw the pass. He hesitated. Those aren't on Williams, those are on Beck.

But I think a fundamental difference between Beck supporters and Rex supporters is the reliance on interviews. I place zero weight on interviews, and I'm surprised anyone around here does as well. Coaches famously give vague and misleading information in their interviews - that's why Coors Light has that ad campaign. Players are coached on how to give interviews that give no insight into what's really going on. It just amazes me how much stock I'm supposed to be putting in some interviews, when I can see with my own two eyes that Rex is playing better football right now.

[BADKCLARK]

1. Beck made several mistakes in the Colts game, including taking at least 2 unnecessary sacks and checking down with open receivers down field. He played better than Grossman that game, but the qb rating formula vastly overstates the difference in the two qbs' play during that game. Grossman had several good plays negated by drops and penalties, while beck had drives extended by penalties and long runs.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've been following Beck for years. After being drafted by the same FO that put together one of the worst teams in recent memory, he started only 3 games. The offense scored 0 tds during his time as qb during those 3 starts. He was pulled after an unforced fumble of his was returned for a td. He had 3 interceptions and 7 fumbles in basically 3 games worth of action. He went on to play uninspiringly (until this season) during the preseason for several teams. In short, there hasn't been much to follow.

Beck has been a pleasant surprise this preseason, but I would much rather see if we can get the best out of Rex Grossman than basically start from scratch with a 30 year old beck. Grossman has at least shown flashes in his career - Beck hasn't.

I followed Beck all thru college. This is what I mean by saying "following Beck for years." I freely admit I'm a homer for him, and want him to start. But, more than that, I'm a football fan, and am capable of seeing when a QB just isn't cut out. I've never felt that way about Beck.

Regarding mistakes. We can debate whether, and what kind of, mistakes he made during the Colts game. Perhaps it was overstated. But, considering EVERY drive Beck was involved in resulted in points on the board tells me that even if he did make mistakes, they were overshadowed by resulting plays. Every drive he was involved in against the Colts (save the throw away :50 end of half) resulted in points on the board.

Grossman has played a good Pre-season, but STATISTICALLY, as in QBR's, it hasn't been as good overall as Beck. If you were to throw away everything prior career-wise, you'd have to see that. Beck should be starting. Numbers don't lie. We can talk about starters vs starters and all that stuff. Beck wasn't able to play against Pitt, so we'll never know how that would have turned out. Just because Grossman got 4 series against starters w/ Baltimore (took 4 series to get points on the board), and Beck 2, doesn't mean Beck is worse. It means he had less opportunity to play against them. Blame Baltimore for not leaving starters in the 2nd half to start. Roles could have easily been reversed. You play with what you have. And Grossman hasn't exactly been all-star 2's vs 2's either.

---------- Post added September-1st-2011 at 08:26 AM ----------

On those 2 sacks he had enough time to hit his back step, see that his first read was open, and throw the pass. He hesitated. Those aren't on Williams, those are on Beck.

But I think a fundamental difference between Beck supporters and Rex supporters is the reliance on interviews. I place zero weight on interviews, and I'm surprised anyone around here does as well. Coaches famously give vague and misleading information in their interviews - that's why Coors Light has that ad campaign. Players are coached on how to give interviews that give no insight into what's really going on. It just amazes me how much stock I'm supposed to be putting in some interviews, when I can see with my own two eyes that Rex is playing better football right now.

Other than it being cited a couple times, I don't know if that is a "fundamental" difference between Beck and Rex supporters. Ignore the interviews and look at the statistics. Or ignore the statistics and go based on your gut feeling, or perspective, or whatever. Everyone has their horse in the race.

Ultimately, it's up to the coaches, and we'll see soon enough how it pans out. Best of luck to both QB's. Having a "problem" like this has to be a good thing for the coaches, and they've said as much.

[Oldfan]

...I also wouldn't take any quotes out of Redskins park too literally. This past off-season Oldfan was able to convince a large number of the masses that Shannahan wasn't gonna re-build either, many of these posters and IIRC OF himself used quotes directly from BA and MS' mouth to support their opinion. Just as I told them months ago, don't listen to what our FO does, pay attention to what they do.

My prediction that Shanahan would not rebuild was based on Probability. The probability was based on the evidence of what he DID and DID NOT DO in the past, not on what he said.

Although he still denies we are rebuilding, he DID a much better job of rebuilding this past offseason than at any time in his career.

[MartinC]

But I think a fundamental difference between Beck supporters and Rex supporters is the reliance on interviews.

Here was me thinking we were all Redskins supporters.

Its fine to have an opinion - even a strong opinion - on which QB is the better choice to be the starter. What always surprises me about these QB threads is that people find it neccasary to use a negative argument against one QB or the other. Frankly both have played welll and to pick holes in the play of either QB this preseason is really getting picky. Neither has been perfect but if either guy plays at the level they have in regular season we should all be delighted.

While personally Beck would be my choice I would have no worries if Rex was given the nod. I trust Mike and Kyle to be make a better decision than I can. Whichever guy gets the nod I guarantee we will have 'bench him' threads after the first bad game or couple of picks - its like its more important to some posters that they are right and their guy gets the gig than the Redskins play well and we see positive development.

[Mahons21]

My prediction that Shanahan would not rebuild was based on Probability. The probability was based on the evidence of what he DID and DID NOT DO in the past, not on what he said.

Although he still denies we are rebuilding, he DID a much better job of rebuilding this past offseason than at any time in his career.

I didn't say it was based solely on quotes, I said you supported it with quotes. I recall you at one time referencing BA's statement "I don't know what rebuilding is" if that wasn't you my apologies, but I'm fairly certain it was.

And we're clearly rebuilding no matter what he says.

[Oldfan]

I didn't say it was based solely on quotes, I said you supported it with quotes. I recall you at one time referencing BA's statement "I don't know what rebuilding is" if that wasn't you my apologies, but I'm fairly certain it was.

And we're clearly rebuilding no matter what he says.

You didn't say that my argument was based solely on quotes, but it reads that way. I'm sure you didn't intend that meaning because I trust you not to intentionally distort my positions.

[Mahons21]

You didn't say that my argument was based solely on quotes, but it reads that way. I'm sure you didn't intend that meaning because I trust you not to intentionally distort my positions.

Edited for clarification sake.

[Skinsinparadise]

I didn't say it was based solely on quotes, I said you supported it with quotes. I recall you at one time referencing BA's statement "I don't know what rebuilding is" if that wasn't you my apologies, but I'm fairly certain it was.

And we're clearly rebuilding no matter what he says.

Pretty much no one uses the term "rebuilding" even if indeed its being done. One NFL executive was once asked about it on one show where he said something to the effect of you never want to give the message to your current players that its not about winning now, otherwise how can they gear up to play week to week with an attitude that winning that game isn't that important. Shanny not using the word rebuilding is standard and I know I made that case on one of those threads you refer to. That's apples to oranges to Kyle saying Beck was a stud in college, he was his favorite QB in the draft, Shanny saying he knows he's going to be a good QB, he's athletic, etc. The press likes to point out that Shanny doesn't praise players that often. Shanny isn't some cuddily feel good Dick Vermeil type as Tom Boswell points out in his column today. If Beck doesn't get the starters job IMO its clear that they are just higher on Grossman at the moment as opposed to being down on Beck.