You say it now, but you're a liar.

[GibbsFactor]

we wont be tanking, but i think you and i are on the same page that this roster looks weak enough to lose on its own without doing it on purpose.

But isn't that doing it on purpose?

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Let's say, hypothetically, I hope the Redskins "tank" and finish 0-16.

Then what? What are you going to do about it? Call me a bad fan on the Internet?

[GibbsFactor]

Let's say, hypothetically, I hope the Redskins "tank" and finish 0-16.

Then what? What are you going to do about it? Call me a bad fan on the Internet?

Nope because I can see you see the big picture and will hope for 9-7 the year after and the sky beyond.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

wrong, i wouldnt want the skins to tank if vinny was still here cause i know he'd butcher it lol.

but i believe in allen and shanny a lot more than i did in friggin zorn and cerrato. night and day.

My point, though, is that the Lions have had 10 stinkin' years of amassing top-10 prospect level young talent...and it has yet to pay off in even an 8-8 record, nonetheless turn them into consistent winners.

And Vinny has a decent record while here of top 10 draft picks...Samuels, Arrington, Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, even Carlos Rogers. I would love to believe that group of young players is good enough to help propel any team to a string of winning seasons.

[onedrop]

one question to all those that care more about a draft pick than the season. are you really going to root against our beloved Redskins this year? can you truly see ourselves saying "come on dallass, beat the Skins"?

it hurt just to type that.

im not asking those that simply think well naturally be that bad. im specifically asking those that want us to get the draft pick at all costs.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

But isn't that doing it on purpose?

lol, technically yes. but still, john beck and rex grossman are completely fine with losing multiple games. i stated in another thread both QBs are a combined 3-12 over 15 starts since 2007. and somehow theyre gonna win 5-6 games here with a bunch of rookie RB, rookie/2nd year lineman, rookie WRs, and good tight end group? lolzors

[RonArtest15]

Tank? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I just want this team to go out, compete, and play hard. Looking at the roster, I don't think we'll be any better than 4-5 wins. I'd love to be wrong, but this is just my opinion. I love the fact that we're having somewhat of a youth-movement on the roster. It's a long time overdue, but we should look at the 2009 Bucs as a team to model ourselves after. True, they got their franchise QB in the draft (and we may do the same next year), but I like their roster make-up and the direction the team is heading. We'll get it right...we're going to take our lumps, but that's all part of the growing process. Be patient.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You keep saying majority. Has there been a poll of all Redskin fans that grants that as fact?

Fans who follow this team should only expect to see improvement (and not in the record book, necessarily).

However, that will not be 100% the case. It also won't be 0% the case. Neither you or I know who the majority is. We just know that there are people on both sides of the fence.

How about this, then: of the posts I have read and the Skins fans I have talked to either in person or on numerous message boards, the majority of them do NOT expect "x" number of wins...the only thing they expect is to see improvement and to see that the personnel drafted and signed by the team was by and large the right decisions to make.

I extrapolate that out to encompassing the Skins fan base as a whole...if you don't want to, that's cool.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 09:53 AM ----------

one question to all those that care more about a draft pick than the season. are you really going to root against our beloved Redskins this year? can you truly see ourselves saying "come on dallass, beat the Skins"?

it hurt just to type that.

im not asking those that simply think well naturally be that bad. im specifically asking those that want us to get the draft pick at all costs.

I'm not one of the Tankers (reminds me of "birthers" and Obama lol)...but my take towards Skins games is one of two approaches:

- I want them to win the game...

- I want them to win the game, but won't get too affected by it if they don't...

How I approach any given game during any given week of any given season changes drastically lol ...but I've never once told myself "I hope they lose".

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

My point, though, is that the Lions have had 10 stinkin' years of amassing top-10 prospect level young talent...and it has yet to pay off in even an 8-8 record, nonetheless turn them into consistent winners.

And Vinny has a decent record while here of top 10 draft picks...Samuels, Arrington, Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, even Carlos Rogers. I would love to believe that group of young players is good enough to help propel any team to a string of winning seasons.

and my point right there was that matt millen was doing the picking, and that was the problem, which has since been removed. notice how the lions have actually gotten better when they got a legit coach, new front office, and some real talent that werent just WR?

arrington was a crappy pick in the long run, he had 2 good seasons, rogers was a failure of a top 10 pick, landry has been very good but not #6 very good. taylor and samuels were the only legit beasts up there that he found. and obviously it isnt just about 1st round, especially considering how bad his QB selections were (ramsey and campbell who both cost of multiple years). i mean for christs sake vinny passed up aaron rodgers to draft carlos rogers when we NEEDED a QB. unreal.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Nope because I can see you see the big picture and will hope for 9-7 the year after and the sky beyond.

I hear you, and agree to an extent, but....

Personally, I think one can see the big picture w/ out rooting for the team to lose for three hours on Sunday. I guess it's not so black-and-white to me. I watch football because it's fun. The day I start watching football games so that I can see how it'll impact my team in 2014, is the day I'll decide to do something better with my time.

I'm also not sure why this is even a debate, though--just look at the Skins roster. It speaks for itself. There's no need for me to "hope" for anything, because it's all gravy: if the Skins have a losing record, it's expected and fits the talent on the roster, and they're young and rebuilding. If they play over their heads and finish 10-6, it's a sign that many of the young players have a very bright future; it won't be some aging team willing itself to the Wildcard Round on its dying legs, giving false hope for the future.

So why are people even arguing about this stuff? Why the need to take attendance on how others root for this team? IT'S ALL SET-UP FOR, NOTHING TO LOSE, no matter who you are.

Relax, people.

[Jericho]

I feel 100% confident in saying I'm okay with the Redskins losing. Not because I *want* them to lose, but because this is about rebuilding. And it's okay to lose if its part of winning the next championship. It's the idea you either are competing for a championship now or building for the next one. The Redskins the last decade have failed at both. Not for lack of trying, but they were not realistic threats to win Super Bowl with those teams, particularly the QBs, as constructed. And they failed to build a young core for a future championship.

I'm not hell bent on going 8-8 just for the sake of winning a few extra games by signing every veteran under the sun. Some people seem to represent that every Redskins loss ruins their entire lives and I just don't feel that way. It's about the big picture, not the immediate result. And no, I don't know the Redskins will ever build a championship under Shanahan. But at least they're legitly trying the right way to do so.

[KDawg]

Did you actually read my post? :doh:

I said the record did NOT play a role for the most part...it was Shanahan's decision making that lead a large percentage of those people to call for his head...NOT the number of wins. I even said that if we HAD won more games and had a winning season, most of those same people still would have been calling for Shanahan's head. I couldn't have been any clearer.

I'm curious if you still don't get that point or not, to be honest lol...

I don't think you're understanding. I had a problem with all of those stupid moves. I didn't call for his head. Why? I have patience. It's a process.

Year one = get in what you can, evaluation of existing personnel

Year two = get your people in

Year three = show real improvement

Year four = Should be extremely competitive

Year five = Playoffs

The plan can be accelerated, but that should be the course.

???...I never said it made them "intelligent"

??? I never said you did?

Nor did I say it was the majority.

Oh, you didn't?

CalifanThe ONLY expectation the majority of us have is in seeing real improvement...not in any set number of wins. We HOPE the improvement we expect to see leads to more wins, and we end up frustrated when it does not. But that doesn't mean we expect to win "x" number of games.

There is where you used, "majority"

Here's a take you don't seem to be considering: perhaps if the Skins can only win 2 games, Shanahan SHOULD be on the hot seat to be fired.

There's this notion that the Skins only winning 3-4 games at most is a foregone conclusion to anyone who views the team objectively...so if they only win 2 games it shouldn't be too much of a surprise, a record like that is to be "expected".

Shanahan being fired after this year for a bad record shows a lack of patience. This is the first real rebuild we've endured in 20 years. If you want him fired after a bad year you're one of the impatient ones. Minimum he should be three years to prove this team is improving. Minimum.

You can take team with an entire roster of undrafted free agents, and win 2 games with them if the coaching and scouting is good enough.

This is a ridiculous statement. I really hope you don't actually think this. Undrafted free agents?

[Oldfan]

My point, though, is that the Lions have had 10 stinkin' years of amassing top-10 prospect level young talent...and it has yet to pay off in even an 8-8 record, nonetheless turn them into consistent winners.

And Vinny has a decent record while here of top 10 draft picks...Samuels, Arrington, Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, even Carlos Rogers. I would love to believe that group of young players is good enough to help propel any team to a string of winning seasons.

Cherry picking.

Detroit in the Millen years is an example of a team that couldn't draft well.

Vinny's Skins are an example of a team that drafted well enough at #1, but traded away too many 2,3, and 4 picks.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

and my point right there was that matt millen was doing the picking, and that was the problem, which has since been removed. notice how the lions have actually gotten better when they got a legit coach, new front office, and some real talent that werent just WR?

Exactly...focus on bettering the team more than on betting your draft position. Just hiring Shanahan and Allen isn't enough.

arrington was a crappy pick in the long run, he had 2 good seasons, rogers was a failure of a top 10 pick, landry has been very good but not #6 very good. taylor and samuels were the only legit beasts up there that he found. and obviously it isnt just about 1st round, especially considering how bad his QB selections were (ramsey and campbell who both cost of multiple years). i mean for christs sake vinny passed up aaron rodgers to draft carlos rogers when we NEEDED a QB. unreal.

It wasn't about whether or not the players lived up to their draft slot...it was whether or not that group of young talent could help ANY team become consistent winners. My opinion is, yes, definitely :yes:...it wasn't a lack of talent on those players' parts that kept the Skins down, it was multiple coaching and FO changes, no consistency, no long range plan being followed, etc, etc...put those same players on an organization that knew what it was doing, and half the Skins fans on this board would be wanting Snyder to sign them when they became free agents ...So, no, I don't think Vinny sucked eggs when it came to who he drafted (or had a hand in drafting) in the top 10.

[CrypticVillain]

we could be 15-0 going in to week 17 and resting all our starters, and i will still be mad if we lose....

New Sig

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I don't think you're understanding. I had a problem with all of those stupid moves. I didn't call for his head. Why? I have patience. It's a process.

Year one = get in what you can, evaluation of existing personnel

Year two = get your people in

Year three = show real improvement

Year four = Should be extremely competitive

Year five = Playoffs

The plan can be accelerated, but that should be the course.

That's fine, for you...but there were numerous others who felt differently. That's what I was pointing out to you.

??? I never said you did?

Then why bring it up if it's a stance nobody is making?

Oh, you didn't?

There is where you used, "majority"

Right...I used "majority" in terms of fans who only "expect" to see improvement. YOU said I used "majority" in terms of fans who expect us to win "x" number of games. That's what I said you were wrong about...I never claimed that the majority of fans expected the Redskins to win a lot of game.

Shanahan being fired after this year for a bad record shows a lack of patience. This is the first real rebuild we've endured in 20 years. If you want him fired after a bad year you're one of the impatient ones. Minimum he should be three years to prove this team is improving. Minimum.

I would agree...but your comment was about fans calling for his head after a 2-14 season. My comment was that aiming the viotrol at Shanahan for that craptastic a season should not be chalked up to nothing more than fan impatience...that in that scenario maybe Shanahan deserves to be put on a hot seat.

This is a ridiculous statement. I really hope you don't actually think this. Undrafted free agents?

If the coaching and scouting is good enough, yep :yes:...Care to explain why that would be impossible?

[KDawg]

That's fine, for you...but there were numerous others who felt differently. That's what I was pointing out to you.

*blink*

Alrighty, then.

Then why bring it up if it's a stance nobody is making?

I'm not allowed an original thought?

Right...I used "majority" in terms of fans who only "expect" to see improvement. YOU said I used "majority" in terms of fans who expect us to win "x" number of games. That's what I said you were wrong about...I never claimed that the majority of fans expected the Redskins to win a lot of game.

Ugh. You continue to miss my point. You have no idea if its the majority of not. That was the point.

I would agree...but your comment was about fans calling for his head after a 2-14 season.

How can you tell me what my intentions were?

My intention was that a large portion of our fans are impatient. I used the record as an indicator, not as a singular example.

My comment was that aiming the viotrol at Shanahan for that craptastic a season should not be chalked up to nothing more than fan impatience...that in that scenario maybe Shanahan deserves to be put on a hot seat.

That's your point of view. We disagree

If the coaching and scouting is good enough, yep :yes:...Care to explain why that would be impossible?

No amount of scouting is going to put the best players back on the board. And no scouting is going to negate all of the vets in the league. You go ahead and hire the best coaches you can and the best scouts you can and try to win. You think a UFL team can beat an NFL team, too? 1 out of every 16 tries?

[pjfootballer]

I get pissed off, scream, shout and throw things. It doesn't matter if we're 3-13, 4-12, 5-11 or 11-5, 12-4, 13-3. It doesn't matter if we're up 31-7 or down 28-10. I'm a competitor and like to win. Winning! Duh!!

[2STaylor1]

New Sig

lol thats awesome

[Skinsfan4life83]

I honestly dont see the Skins being as bad as everyone seems to think they will be. They lost a bunch of games by less than a touchdown and now since the dead weight has been cut and younger talent brought in I think its idiotic to think this team will only win 3-4 games. There are at least 7-8 very winnable games on the schedule. This is how I see it(whether you care or not:))

Giants/Loss- True they have owned the Skins for the last few years but it is a division game so you never know but I say Loss.

Arizona/Win- The only thing the Cards did was pick up Kolb whom I think is incredibly overrated.

@Dallas/loss-I never pick these games because it doesnt matter what the records are when they play, it a coin toss really.

@Rams/Win-The Rams are a up and coming team but no one besides Bradford really scares me on this team.

Philly/Loss- Another game that is hard to call. I think people are hyping the Eagles up way too much.

@Panthers/Win-Rookie QB on a terrible team, no matter how good he is he doesnt play defense.

@Bills/Win-Another terrible team that can be beaten.

49ers/Loss-They have upgraded pretty well but this one could also go either way.

@Miami/Win-I dont see losing to this team.

Dallas/Win- Always split with the Cowgirls

@Seahawks/Win- This team is a mess and they just let their best QB go to the Titans.

Jets/Loss-This team is usually in beast mode this late in the season

Patriots/Loss-I would love to beat the Pats but I dont see it happening

@Giants/Win- By this time of the season Skins should be gelling pretty well.

Vikings/Loss- McNabb gets payback.

Eagles/Loss- Philly should be resting starters by this time.

Now mind you these are just predictions and mean very little in the overall scheme of things. And my predictions are based on Grossman being the starter, not Beck. Grossman performed just as well as McNabb did last year and ther is no reason to think he wouldnt perform better this year. However if Beck is the starter I could easily see 3-13. It seems some of you are hopeing the team will suck and basing that hope on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. I want to win, I dont give a damn if a cloned Peyton Manning was in next years draft, you dont have to pick in the top 3 to get a great QB but some people seem to believe this lie wholeheartidly. Its really sad. I can easily see 7-8 wins on this schedule, it isnt a brutal one by any means.

[Oldfan]

I get pissed off, scream, shout and throw things. It doesn't matter if we're 3-13, 4-12, 5-11 or 11-5, 12-4, 13-3. It doesn't matter if we're up 31-7 or down 28-10. I'm a competitor and like to win. Winning! Duh!!

Are you a smart competitor? If you could increase your chances of building a better roster long term by sacrificing some wins on the short-term would you pass on that strategy?

[pjfootballer]

Are you a smart competitor? If you could increase your chances of building a better roster long term by sacrificing some wins on the short-term would you pass on that strategy?

Depends on what we would be guaranteed to get. Of course nothing in the draft is guaranteed. I say that now when there are no games being played, but when they kickoff, I don't even think about draft picks or years ahead. My focus is on the game at hand and I want them to win every game.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I'm not allowed an original thought?

You are, but it would help it if at least had something to do with the debate at hand ...

Ugh. You continue to miss my point. You have no idea if its the majority of not. That was the point.

And you continue to miss my POSTS lol...because here's what I said:

How about this, then: of the posts I have read and the Skins fans I have talked to either in person or on numerous message boards, the majority of them do NOT expect "x" number of wins...the only thing they expect is to see improvement and to see that the personnel drafted and signed by the team was by and large the right decisions to make.

I extrapolate that out to encompassing the Skins fan base as a whole...if you don't want to, that's cool.

How can you tell me what my intentions were?

My intention was that a large portion of our fans are impatient. I used the record as an indicator, not as a singular example.

??...There was nothing in that quote that talked about your intentions lol...seriously, you MUST be reading someone else's posts to be reading MY posts so inaccurately.

No amount of scouting is going to put the best players back on the board. And no scouting is going to negate all of the vets in the league. You go ahead and hire the best coaches you can and the best scouts you can and try to win. You think a UFL team can beat an NFL team, too? 1 out of every 16 tries?

So then, finding players like Tony Romo sits to pee, London Fletcher, and Jeff Saturday would never happen in your scenario...and no level of coaching could turn a team with enough of those players on it into a two win team...That's your stance.

[Oldfan]

Depends on what we would be guaranteed to get. I say that now when there are no games being played, but when they kickoff, I don't even think about draft picks or years ahead. My focus is on the game at hand and I want them to win every game.

There are no guarantees, but choosing the right strategy increases your odds of winning. A good win-now plan increases the chances of winning in the upcoming season, but drops your chances of ever winning championships. That's the choice you are being asked to make.

[pjfootballer]

There are no guarantees, but choosing the right strategy increases your odds of winning. A good win-now plan increases the chances of winning in the upcoming season, but drops your chances of ever winning championships. That's the choice you are being asked to make.

Let's just say I'm on board with the current strategy and I'll let the chips fall where they may in the April. I can't sit here and say, "yeah, I would rather us lose now to win in the future." Because losing now is no guarantee that you'll win in the future. Detroit has been fighting that battle for years. Losing records and high picks, but they still continued to lose due to an inept FO.