You say it now, but you're a liar.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This whole post makes me laugh. You think for one second our fans are going to be able to handle losing? This thread is verification that it won't happen. Four people? How'd you come up with that number. If you honestly believe that four people would be okay with us not being good this year due to the rebuilding process, I don't know what to tell you.

Fans won't be able to handle seeing the Skins looking like a bunch of amateurs while losing, no...we already saw several times last year where the team looked competent and competitive during losses and ES members were pretty level-headed about it...and we also saw wins where the Skins looked uncoordinated, sloppy and ugly, and fans went ballistic about it.

So, no...I don't think most fans only care about the wins and losses. But being upset about a loss doesn't mean that fan expected a win. Don't try and pretend that the only losses that bothered you were the ones in which you "expected" the Skins to win. That would be unnatural...as humans we're not wired that way. Sometimes we don't know what to expect.

[KDawg]

Fans won't be able to handle seeing the Skins looking like a bunch of amateurs while losing, no...we already saw several times last year where the team looked competent and competitive during losses and ES members were pretty level-headed about it...and we also saw wins where the Skins looked uncoordinated, sloppy and ugly, and fans went ballistic about it.

So, no...I don't think most fans only care about the wins and losses. But being upset about a loss doesn't mean that fan expected a win. Don't try and pretend that the only losses that bothered you were the ones in which you "expected" the Skins to win. That would be unnatural...as humans we're not wired that way. Sometimes we don't know what to expect.

I can honestly tell you that last year, as much as I wanted us to win, it was the first time I didn't get mad after a loss. This year, I'll be even more indifferent. We may have to take a giant step back to go forward. But what do you want to bet more than four fans call for Shanahan's head if we go 2-14 or 3-13?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Again, when we get the first back-to-back loses and the multitude of posters start screaming for the coaches head, or this and that's players head, it'll blow that theory up. There's a large proportion of this fanbase that run off pure emotion and fully expect the 'Skins to be up there challenging regardless.

The fact you may live in reality is not to say many do.

Hail.

And watch those threads, and see if the number of ES members who ridicule the over-emotional responses outnumber by a GREAT margin the number of ES members who agree. This site has, what...70,000 members? If 5 of those members start threads like the ones you described, what does that prove? ...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Your damn right results. Cutting loose players he thought did'nt fit the program. Should'nt he be held accountalbe at all for a better season NOW?

That all depends on your definition of what's going on.

I personally believe he, Allen and Snyder are all agreed on a five year plan to build this thing properly. So if he sticks to that plan, and plays the future, and they come up short in the W column and it leads us onto our QB and the next stage of that plan; I don't see his position under question at all.

If results are the be all and end all right now, then I suppose you would.

Hail.

[Kdiggy]

I have a question. Where is the gurantee that if we so call tank the season, that ANY QB we pick will be a Franchise QB????

The draft and QBs are crap shoots. Remember Heath Shuler...yeah I said it. Ryan Leaf? I could keep going....

Bottom line is I can't stand losing and never will sacrifice a season for a number 1 pick that might be a bust.

Last year I almost had several heart attacks from our games. We lost how many in the 4th qtr?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Repeat post. My bad.

Continue on.

Hail.

[KDawg]

If results are the be all and end all right now, then I suppose you would.

Hail.

And if we wanted results now with that awful roster we had, we'd be on the (very) wrong path. He needs to be given time. Next year we should show improvement for sure. Improvement this year is a bonus.

[Oldfan]

Players on losing teams with a change in the front office and coaching staff absolutely NEED to see that the program they are being asked to dedicate themselves and a good part of their careers to WILL lead to wins. This isn't a philosophy class where multiple concepts are debated and considered...these guys need to actually experience true on-the-field benefits of doing thing the coach's way...of putting in the extra work before and after practice...of knowing that things are on the right track because they are seeing positive results.

And there is no better way of achieving this than by winning as often as possible.

A high draft pick should be seen as a consolation prize...not a goal.

A strategic retreat is not the goal, it's a tactical move toward the goal of winning the war.

Assuming we don't sacrifice the long-term merit of the roster, zero wins is a better result than eight wins. NFL rules make that a fact.

Players involved in a rebuild know they're involved in a rebuild. They know they're expected to lose; so their confidence in the coaching staff is not lost. Soldiers involved in a strategic retreat understand that they will live to fight another day. They don't lose confidence in their officers.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

And watch those threads, and see if the number of ES members who ridicule the over-emotional responses outnumber by a GREAT margin the number of ES members who agree. This site has, what...70,000 members? If 5 of those members start threads like the ones you described, what does that prove? ...

SERIOUSLY? How long have you been around to see the game day threads again?

Your just being obtuse there man. You know full well a LARGE section of this boards members goes into full meltdown at ONE loss, never mind more.

Hail.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I can honestly tell you that last year, as much as I wanted us to win, it was the first time I didn't get mad after a loss. This year, I'll be even more indifferent. We may have to take a giant step back to go forward. But what do you want to bet more than four fans call for Shanahan's head if we go 2-14 or 3-13?

A lot of people were calling for Shanahan's head this past season ...but it wasn't due to the record, for the most part. It was due to the bad McNabb trade, it was due to how he supposedly treated McNabb, it was due to not trading Haynesworth, it was due to how they viewede his treatment of the whole AH situation, it was due to him not entering a "rebuild" mode from day one, it was due to him changing the defensive scheme to a 3-4 before we had the appropriate personnel...if we had gone 9-7 instead, many of these same people would have still been saying that Shanahan was a mistake and needs to go. They just wouldn't have felt as emboldened to do so in the form of a new thread lol...

[MartinC]

Fans won't be able to handle seeing the Skins looking like a bunch of amateurs while losing, no...we already saw several times last year where the team looked competent and competitive during losses and ES members were pretty level-headed about it...and we also saw wins where the Skins looked uncoordinated, sloppy and ugly, and fans went ballistic about it.

I think this is true. I'm certainly not expecting us to be a playoff contender but I am expecting our defense to better and not to have to watch games like the second Eagles game last year when it was men against boys. On offense I'm not expecting us to make me think of the '83 or '91 teams but I am expecting more balanced play calling, improved rhythm and temp, NFL quality line play lead by a much improved Trent Williams and young receivers developing. I don't know what to expect at QB.

How it all plays out in terms of wins and losses I don't know but my expectations are not high. If I can see progress and young position players developing I don't really care. If we are losing and we look like we have not made any progress from last year that will be a concern.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

SERIOUSLY? How long have you been around to see the game day threads again?

Your just being obtuse there man. You know full well a LARGE section of this boards members goes into full meltdown at ONE loss, never mind more.

Hail.

Yeah, no way I could have a valid argument or viewpoint...I'm just being obtuse.

And, yes, I often saw the blowhard, emotional threads being shot down last season, and it felt good to witness. If you want to blow off my perceptions, feel free. Doesn't mean anything, though.

[KDawg]

A lot of people were calling for Shanahan's head this past season ...but it wasn't due to the record, for the most part. It was due to the bad McNabb trade, it was due to how he supposedly treated McNabb, it was due to not trading Haynesworth, it was due to how they viewede his treatment of the whole AH situation, it was due to him not entering a "rebuild" mode from day one, it was due to him changing the defensive scheme to a 3-4 before we had the appropriate personnel...if we had gone 9-7 instead, many of these same people would have still been saying that Shanahan was a mistake and needs to go. They just wouldn't have felt as emboldened to do so in the form of a new thread lol...

Ok, so you're proving my point. People expect us to win. That doesn't make them intelligent, and that doesn't make them the majority (I don't know if they would be our majority or not). But, people expect us to win, and when they don't win they want to throw people under the bus and heads to roll. A large portion of our fanbase has no patience whatsoever. I can bet that if we go 2-14, people will say Shanahan should be fired because we got worse and throw the fact that we were rebuilding to the wayside because they have no patience.

Where I think you're correct is that the "intelligent" fans know that we won't win games, but that's not who I'm referring to. I'm referring to the fans who don't follow this teams every move and just expect that a team can become a winner overnight, and accept nothing less. That's where the issue arises.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I think this is true. I'm certainly not expecting us to be a playoff contender but I am expecting our defense to better and not to have to watch games like the second Eagles game last year when it was men against boys. On offense I'm not expecting us to make me think of the '83 or '91 teams but I am expecting more balanced play calling, improved rhythm and temp, NFL quality line play lead by a much improved Trent Williams and young receivers developing. I don't know what to expect at QB.

How it all plays out in terms of wins and losses I don't know but my expectations are not high. If I can see progress and young position players developing I don't really care. If we are losing and we look like we have not made any progress from last year that will be a concern.

:yes:...The ONLY expectation the majority of us have is in seeing real improvement...not in any set number of wins. We HOPE the improvement we expect to see leads to more wins, and we end up frustrated when it does not. But that doesn't mean we expect to win "x" number of games.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Yeah, no way I could have a valid argument or viewpoint...I'm just being obtuse.

And, yes, I often saw the blowhard, emotional threads being shot down last season, and it felt good to witness. If you want to blow off my perceptions, feel free. Doesn't mean anything, though.

Coming from you man, who's normally better than that, that's lame.

I'll take back the 'obtuse' comment, and take you on face value that you actually believe a LARGE proportion of this fan base don't live in the unrealistic World where they expect the Redskins to win EVERY game, and go absolutely ******* nuts when they don't.

You honestly don't believe that? Are the game day threads and worse something I imagine? Is this some bad episode of Dallas were I've slept through this boards recent history?

Hail.

[KDawg]

:yes:...The ONLY expectation the majority of us have is in seeing real improvement...not in any set number of wins. We HOPE the improvement we expect to see leads to more wins, and we end up frustrated when it does not. But that doesn't mean we expect to win "x" number of games.

You keep saying majority. Has there been a poll of all Redskin fans that grants that as fact?

Fans who follow this team should only expect to see improvement (and not in the record book, necessarily).

However, that will not be 100% the case. It also won't be 0% the case. Neither you or I know who the majority is. We just know that there are people on both sides of the fence.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I didn't say I would rather have Grossman or Beck, of course I'd love that "franchise" QB. But it's too early to just write either one of them off. I just think putting all our eggs in the basket with the hopes that we might luck out (pun not intended), is irresponsible. The better thing is to continue building the correct way, and the let the chips fall where they fall. A QB is not the answer to all our solutions (albeit still important), we have years and years of damagee to fix in this organization and hoping we go 5-11 and below is not going to help that.

with a QB you have to put your eggs in the basket. we did it with campbell and it was the right move at the time. i was ecstatic that we put him in in 06. when you get that potential golden goose you ride with him until its concrete that hes either a bust, mediocre, or great.

and with a QB class like this (or what its projected to be) we better hope we do poorly enough to get one of these guys. going 7-9 and drafting some impact LB or trading our entire draft for a QB is much worse than just losing 14 games and calling it a day.

all i wanna see this year is improvement from the rookies and our defense solidified. im expecting next to nothing from our offense.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 12:32 PM ----------

If I were on the "tank" side of this debate, I would stop using the Lions as an example lol...

wrong, i wouldnt want the skins to tank if vinny was still here cause i know he'd butcher it lol.

but i believe in allen and shanny a lot more than i did in friggin zorn and cerrato. night and day.

[martin49]

That all depends on your definition of what's going on.

I personally believe he, Allen and Snyder are all agreed on a five year plan to build this thing properly. So if he sticks to that plan, and plays the future, and they come up short in the W column and it leads us onto our QB and the next stage of that plan; I don't see his position under question at all.

If results are the be all and end all right now, then I suppose you would.

Hail.

Valid point indeed, however I don't think this team is going to all of a sudden snap into some super contender. I think each year under this regime,we SHOULD get better and better. I think thats a fair expectation.

[KDawg]

We shouldn't want to tank, either. We should build this team the right way and let the chips fall as the may. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want Andrew Luck, but if we lose, we have to lose the "right way". By putting in the effort and not being the better team. If we do well with Beck (or Rex) at QB, perhaps they're capable of leading us for a while longer. You can't truly evaluate personnel if you "tank" and that's a worse fate than almost any I can imagine.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

We shouldn't want to tank, either. We should build this team the right way and let the chips fall as the may. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want Andrew Luck, but if we lose, we have to lose the "right way". By putting in the effort and not being the better team. If we do well with Beck (or Rex) at QB, perhaps they're capable of leading us for a while longer. You can't truly evaluate personnel if you "tank" and that's a worse fate than almost any I can imagine.

we wont be tanking, but i think you and i are on the same page that this roster looks weak enough to lose on its own without doing it on purpose.

[martin49]

And if we wanted results now with that awful roster we had, we'd be on the (very) wrong path. He needs to be given time. Next year we should show improvement for sure. Improvement this year is a bonus.

Agreed. But I also think this year should show improvement with more of his (shanny) picks in place.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The fans have no patience.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Ok, so you're proving my point. People expect us to win.

Did you actually read my post? :doh:

I said the record did NOT play a role for the most part...it was Shanahan's decision making that lead a large percentage of those people to call for his head...NOT the number of wins. I even said that if we HAD won more games and had a winning season, most of those same people still would have been calling for Shanahan's head. I couldn't have been any clearer.

I'm curious if you still don't get that point or not, to be honest lol...

That doesn't make them intelligent, and that doesn't make them the majority (I don't know if they would be our majority or not).

???...I never said it made them "intelligent" ...Nor did I say it was the majority.

Seriously...whose posts have you been reading?

But, people expect us to win, and when they don't win they want to throw people under the bus and heads to roll. A large portion of our fanbase has no patience whatsoever. I can bet that if we go 2-14, people will say Shanahan should be fired because we got worse and throw the fact that we were rebuilding to the wayside because they have no patience.

Here's a take you don't seem to be considering: perhaps if the Skins can only win 2 games, Shanahan SHOULD be on the hot seat to be fired.

There's this notion that the Skins only winning 3-4 games at most is a foregone conclusion to anyone who views the team objectively...so if they only win 2 games it shouldn't be too much of a surprise, a record like that is to be "expected".

Thus, a 2-14 record would not and should not reflect negatively on anything Shanahan is doing or has done as coach and head of personnel.

That, of course, is bull**** lol.

You can take team with an entire roster of undrafted free agents, and win 2 games with them if the coaching and scouting is good enough.

The Skins have the talent to win 5-6 games with merely competent coaching and playcalling. If they only win 2 games, then it either means that a lot of players lost a lot of talent in a ridiculously short time...or the coaching and scouting was below "competent".

Where I think you're correct is that the "intelligent" fans know that we won't win games, but that's not who I'm referring to. I'm referring to the fans who don't follow this teams every move and just expect that a team can become a winner overnight, and accept nothing less. That's where the issue arises.

I don't think there are as many of those types of fans on this board as you are believing, though. To me, it's a lot like talk radio...the listeners with the most extreme views will tend to be the ones who call in the most, but that's not an accurate reflection of the entire listening audience. Around here, the fans with the most extreme and emotional views tend to start the most threads lol...but they are most definitely in the minority.

[Oldfan]

We have 11 players on our current roster 30 or older. They might help us win another meaningless game or two. I'd cut or trade them. If you want to call that "tanking," then I'm all for tanking.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Valid point indeed, however I don't think this team is going to all of a sudden snap into some super contender. I think each year under this regime,we SHOULD get better and better. I think thats a fair expectation.

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I just personally believe within that there's varying degrees of progression which in year two of the position we find ourselves in, shouldn't necessarily revolve around just results. All things considered, I personally wouldn't be too perturbed at all with him if he continued to play the young guys who are our future heavily this year so their growing and improving together, but they probably ultimately come up short in the final score as they go.

Whether the majority would take that longer term view of sacrificing the present for a far better future is another thing again.

Hail.