You say it now, but you're a liar.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

No we're not. We're better and far more talented across the board on defense and our OL and WRs should be markedly improved from last season. McNabb was dreadful last season, his play was a primary reason we were bad. His 77.1 QB rating was 24th among starting QBs last season and our team QB rating of 78 was 22 in the NFL. We were fourth in attempts. His poor passing was killing us.

John Beck is unlikely to be worse no matter how bad he is when he plays, simply because I think you'll see our offense shift more heavily in favor of the running game. Rex Grossman is likely to be better since he was better than McNabb last season.

The defensive improvements alone should be worth a couple of games. We're going to have a big team that wears well over the course of the season and I bet you'll see us get better in November and December.

Listen to yourself. We're not going to finish with the first overall selection. Mike Shanahan is far to good a coach for that to happen.

i dont care how good a coach he is, if hes trying to make a cake with mud and sticks its gonna taste like **** no matter how awesome of a cook he is. he doesnt have much to work with, and with the amount of rookies, terrible QB options, and overall turnover at numerous positions, we could easily finish dead last.

john fox was a very good coach with a good defense, great running game, vet QB, etc. he went 1-15. that kinda stuff can happen.

[rockfan7224]

People can't handle the truth man. The funny thing about all this tanking talk is people think like, we're going to intentionally lose games. We wont have to try and lose a lot of games this year, it's going to happen naturally anyway.

I'm thinking this is a 4-6 win team, top end. I don't think that'll be good enough for #1 overall though.

I can definitely handle the truth. The problem is when people on the tanking side of the fence actually cheer for failure. I can respect different opinions, to to essentially root for the team to lose and fail seems a little off to me.

And that is exactly what it is, to say "I'd be disappointed if we won more than 6 games" is hoping the team loses. I on the other hand want to see the team fight in every game (which we were competitive in 14 out of 16 of last years), and if we end up with a winning record, fantastic, it shows the pieces we added this offseason geled and came along quite well and if we end up with a 4-12 record, oh well, we'll just have a higher draft pick. But no matter how hard I try I just can't *fathom* that some people are looking for the team to lose.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Not if we're drafting as low as that Mass man. Then your taking flyers, even in the lower first. There is some real top quality potential, but they'll be gone real early. And to trade up to a top 5 spot for even a chance of a Luck of Jones would take way too much ammo realistically given we still have a lot of holes to address going forward.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

heres a question for ya, what team is worse off at QB than we are with rex grossman/john beck?

Hehe, on paper, less than a handful. In this scheme, probably a few more.

Of course, many fans would argue that Rex Grossman looked at least average in the 3 games he started last year, which is better than McNabb past week 3, when he lost his legs, as he does every year.

But like I said, if you think getting average QB play out of Beck/Grossman is more far fetched than tanking a season, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The crowd that's convinced McNabb would be a better option than what we have is not going to be convinced otherwise. Not until the season starts, at least.

[NattyBo]

I'm not looking for the team to lose, I just see it as inevitable. I'm also foresighted enough to see that if we're playing pretty poorly like 4 games into the season, I'd probably be ok with losing out or only winning 1 or 2 more to secure us a franchise QB, something that I have yet to see in my ~20 years of actually being able to remember Redskins games, and which is generally accepted to be necessary to become an elite franchise. I'd take a season of 4-12 or sub that rather than another 8-8 mediocrity if it meant we were going to have a much better chance at making the playoffs for years to come.

[The Tris]

this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks)

Please list who you consider to be QB gurus in the NFL.

Then please list which of them took QBs.

[Long-Time-Fan]

That frustration will grow more profound with each loss and you'll invent new names for Daniel Snyder and roar in hatred of Haslett,

I think 6-10 but I hope for much much better.

I hope for Beck to be our Franchise QB for years to come.

BUT

Let it be known that my sig has been this was since Hasslett was hired.

[Going Commando]

That's silly. Of course he knows the jist of what's available next year. College scouting is a year long business. Sure, he hasn't put in hours of tape, but he knows what's out there.

I guarantee you Shanahan has never watched coaches tape of Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, or Landry Jones. I'd be willing to bet lots of money on this.

You know why? College coaches don't give their tapes to scouts to watch sophomores and NFL scouts make it a point to never openly scout underclassmen until it becomes clear they'll declare, much less scouting sophomores. And NFL coaches aren't going to watch film of 2013 prospects two years in advance. Shanahan works hard enough just watching film of the guys in the 2011 class up until the day of the draft.

So what does Shanahan have to go on to decide he's fine with going into the season with QBs he has no faith in? ESPN hype? Yeah right. Shanahan is working to make progress each season.

[KCClybun]

How about being less concerned with getting a quarterback, and being more concerned with getting the RIGHT quarterback?

JUST drafting a quarterback isn't good enough, because when you just draft a guy to draft a guy...well, you end up in the situation the Panthers are in. Drafting a quarterback isn't good enough. We have to be patient enough to wait for the right quarterback, otherwise five years down the line we're all sitting here ****ing about how Andrew Luck is a bust and how we need to only win four games so we can draft the next quarterback of the moment.

That's the reason we passed on every quarterback this year.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

How about being less concerned with getting a quarterback, and being more concerned with getting the RIGHT quarterback?

JUST drafting a quarterback isn't good enough, because when you just draft a guy to draft a guy...well, you end up in the situation the Panthers are in. Drafting a quarterback isn't good enough. We have to be patient enough to wait for the right quarterback, otherwise five years down the line we're all sitting here ****ing about how Andrew Luck is a bust and how we need to only win four games so we can draft the next quarterback of the moment.

That's the reason we passed on every quarterback this year.

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

Not that it makes your question any less relevant, but no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

[GibbsFactor]

I guarantee you Shanahan has never watched coaches tape of Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, or Landry Jones. I'd be willing to bet lots of money on this.

You know why? College coaches don't give their tapes to scouts to watch sophomores and NFL scouts make it a point to never openly scout underclassmen until it becomes clear they'll declare, much less scouting sophomores. And NFL coaches aren't going to watch film of 2013 prospects two years in advance. Shanahan works hard enough just watching film of the guys in the 2011 class up until the day of the draft.

So what does Shanahan have to go on to decide he's fine with going into the season with QBs he has no faith in? ESPN hype? Yeah right. Shanahan is working to make progress each season.

That's untrue. Scouts get that stuff at Pro Days the year before. And Shannahan is actively looking for a QB. That means he knows the deal with those three.

[The Tris]

no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

Lulz - who has ever said anything close to that?

[GibbsFactor]

Not that it makes your question any less relevant, but no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

Because the entire sporting world says so? He's like King James coming out. Best prospect since.... before Manning.

Sam Bradford is up there with Luck but Sam had the shoulder concerns. No such concern with this one.

[SpacePenguin]

Because the entire sporting world says so? He's like King James coming out. Best prospect since.... before Manning.

Sam Bradford is up there with Luck but Sam had the shoulder concerns. No such concern with this one.

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

[GibbsFactor]

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

Actually no. None of them were hyped like this.

[SpacePenguin]

Lulz - who has ever said anything close to that?

Maybe no one has, but otherwise, why would a team tank an entire season for him. They obviously think he's going to be special.

Maybe I misunderstood the Lucksters, and this whole thing makes even less sense than I thought.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 04:28 PM ----------

Actually no. None of them were hyped like this.

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Not a fan of hype.

[GibbsFactor]

Maybe no one has, but otherwise, why would a team tank an entire season for him. They obviously think he's going to be special.

Maybe I misunderstood the Lucksters, and this whole thing makes even less sense than I thought.

What is the benefit of finishing 7-9? If you have a chance to get something WE ALL have wanted since the damn late 60s, why would you not try your hardest to get it? What does 7-9 get us? What does 8-8 get us? You have to be disciplined.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

No question, The draft is a total crap shoot, no matter what position you draft and at what place. Who knows how a guy will transition from the totally different Worlds of the college to the pro game?

But when a guy's as good a college player as Luck, and has all the intangibles you could ever wish to have in a QB, I'd rather be in with a chance of gambling on that potential than not. As much as he could be a bust, he could equally be 'the' man. If you don't buy a ticket and all that .....

Oh, and for the record, as great as I think Luck will be, I really covet the Sooner Jones. But ya' know ......

Hail.

[BigMike619]

my gosh, from the talks of it you would think Andrew Luck changed water in to wine. Does he get his own cult thread on here like Colt did?

[SpacePenguin]

What is the benefit of finishing 7-9? If you have a chance to get something WE ALL have wanted since the damn late 60s, why would you not try your hardest to get it? What does 7-9 get us? What does 8-8 get us? You have to be disciplined.

What do you get for anything but winning the SuperBowl? Why win 9 or 10 games and make the playoffs unless you're sure it's your year?

Because it's football, and there are no guarantees. You fight your guts out for every win you can, if you don't, Shanny will cut you, that's what discipline is.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 04:35 PM ----------

No question, The draft is a total crap shoot, no matter what position you draft and at what place. Who knows how a guy will transition from the totally different Worlds of the college to the pro game?

But when a guy's as good a college player as Luck, and has all the intangibles you could ever wish to have in a QB, I'd rather be in with a chance of gambling on that potential than not. As much as he could be a bust, he could equally be 'the' man. If you don't buy a ticket and all that .....

Oh, and for the record, as great as I think Luck will be, I really covet the Sooner Jones. But ya' know ......

Hail.

Good post. I don't have anything against drafting a QB next year, it's the losing games to do so that bothers me. It goes against everything that competitive sports represents.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

As I see him lurking, a related question to our friendly Giant, BBJ.

Joe, would you rather of Fassel won more games in '03 than the 4 he did on a poor Giants squad, and missed out on Eli, than be sitting here now with your franchise QB?

Hail.

[onedrop]

As I see him lurking, a related question to our friendly Giant, BBJ.

Joe, would you rather of Fassel won more games in '03 than the 4 he did on a poor Giants squad, and missed out on Eli, than be sitting here now with your franchise QB?

Hail.

the giants didnt come by eli all fair and square style.

[The Tris]

NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

QB prospects are all about translatable attributes - the more they have, the higher probability of success.

No prospect is guaranteed (a cliche that is in the same category of obviousness as there's no "i" in team), but the more attributes a prospect has, the higher the probability of success.

You want to draft a QB that has the highest probability of success - Andrew Luck probably has the most NFL ready attributes since Peyton Manning and thus the highest probability of success since Manning as well.

This doesn't alone guarantee success (many external variables, as well as intangibles that are not easily identifiable play a part), but it does mean that the likelihood that he will succeed is greater than any other QB in a decade, all other factors (team, injury luck, coaching, etc) being equal.

That is why there is hype about Luck.

Of course, he is part of a very talented class of QBs himself, and is far from the only QB with a higher than average probability for success. He's not the only answer, but he is a very, very good one.

[KCClybun]

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

I was just using Luck as an example. The same could be said of Landry Jones, Barkley, Foles, Cousins, et. al.

I haven't convinced myself that he's going to be a bust. He could very well be a productive and capable quarterback. I just don't believe the hype that he's going to be some savior of the franchise. Not just ours, but EVERYONE'S. The Redskins aren't the only team with an active group of fans with a Suck for Luck campaign.

He hasn't played the season yet. His head coach is gone. I don't think that, playing in the Pac-10, he's playing against the best talent all the time. Just from a weird "I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about" prospective, I don't like the way the ball comes out of his hand; it wobbles a lot. I don't like his accuracy on the deep stuff. He throws some baffling interceptions. He's got the physical skill set and the intangibles, he's got the mobility, but there's something about him that gives me pause, the least of which is the amount of people ready to crown him the next Peyton Manning.

Alls I'm saying is, let him play first. Before he's crowned worthy of first overall pick status, and before people open advocate that we should lose lots of games to get him, I'd like to see him play and continue to improve. I could be completely wrong, and I'll gladly eat my words. But it's been irksome to hear fans talk about how we need to end up with a top 5 draft pick to get him, and if we don't end up in the top 5 we should trade up to get him, or to hear national media and bloggers talk about how we're tanking to get him.

To that end, I'm not wild on Landry Jones or Matt Barkley either. About the only quarterback a like is Kirk Cousins, who's looking like a second or third rounder. Maybe I'm just crap at evaluating guys, but I think mostly, I'm just trying to sit and watch a lot of college football and make my decisions based on 2011.

If ya wanna crown him, crown him, but I'd rather not, and hearing his name a zillion times a day has fatigued me towards him.