You say it now, but you're a liar.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Without even skimming through this thread, I'll just say that I'll savor every win this team has this season.

That is the purpose of loving your football team... savor it until it gets driven to the ground (not to say this hasn't already happened )

We're all still fans at the end of the day and if you say to yourself that you don't care what the end results are, then you are just kidding yourself.

[Mahons21]

I'm sure every Skins fan in the world would want them to go up 4 scores. I mean, it's the ****ing Giants. I HATE the Giants because they've had their quarterback allowing them to build the rest of the team and in the process kill us EVERY damn year.

Ay yay yay, having Eli has allowed them to build the rest of their team? I'd argue that having some of the most dominant lines in football for the good majority of the last decade helped Eli much more so than he helped them. Eli has all day to throw, a rushing attack that any RB can fill into, and one of the greatest 4-man pass rushes in football, that causes how many turnovers? If I'm not mistaken Umenyioura set an NFL record last year for forced fumbles.

In my opinion you give Eli Manning and the QB position too much credit.

Now, if it's week 5 and we are sitting at 3-1 would I want us to lose? Of course not. I never want us to lose which is why I want us to lose this year. Why does that only make sense to 20% of us? Cause if we win this year in spite of our QB, we won't win next year or the year after.

So you don't want us to lose week 5, but you do want us to lose this year? You realize week 5 is in this year? You realize are awful team last year still had a respectable record come week 5?

-And I would imagine "losing" only make sense to 20% of "us" because 20% of the people either a.) overvalue the QB position, or b.) are unaware you don't need the #1 QB every year.

Evidence:

E Manning 1st QB taken over Big Ben/Rivers.. Arguably the worst of the 3 QB's

Josh Freeman taken 3rd QB in the 20's

Aaron Rodgers taken 2nd QB in the late teens/early 20's IIRC 20 exactly I think

This past draft Cam Newton is the 1st guy taken.

Drew Brees 2nd rd QB

Obviously you also have the Tom Brady/Matt Cassell/Tony Romo sits to pee argument as well the reclamation projects; S. Young, Favre, Vick

You don't need to draft a QB first overall to get a sure-fire QB, but you do need to have a strong support system already in place.

Winning in spite of your quarterback is a horrible business model in the NFL. Make sense of that statement please (should be fun).

You're attempting to make the argument that winning with a bad QB is a poor decision because it pushes your draft position further back and the team should attempt to use their 1st rd draft pick on future QB. But this logic is extremely flawed, because for 1.) You don't need to take a QB in the top 5, and 2.) the Draft isn't the only way to acquire QB's.

I would argue that the 3-4 best QB's out right now that are on another level are:

Manning

Brady

Brees

Rodgers

The average position of where these guys were drafted excluding the Brady outlier is 19th overall.

1 of them is a top 5 pick.

[Going Commando]

You calling me a liar??

This is how you tank:

You go into the season as young as possible with as unproven quarterback as possible.

You bring in a few vets here and there to teach the ropes and push the youth.

You balk on big name free agents and then sign lesser known, younger, talent to the same basic deal.

You can call it tanking, setting up for the future, rebuilding, etc...

At the end of the day there are two basic outcomes to this season that matter.

1. Draft Position

2. Finding young talent.

Those are the goals of this season. So to win 3 extra games next year would not help you achieve your goal.

And anyone thinking we aren't setting this team up for a rookie QB next year hasn't been paying attention.

So with all that being said, I am willing to go through another awful season in the hopes we can get as high a draft pick as possible so that we can increase our odds of landing the signal caller we want.

It's called big picture. Cause the picture for this season stinks regardless.

Gibbsfactor the FO could have selected a QB this draft if they were ready to turn the team over to a rookie. They passed entirely on the position and this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks).

I think you're underestimating how serious Shanahan is about moving forward John Beck. It's natural to be skeptical of the plan to start Beck. But Shanahan's resolve to win with Beck seems pretty clear. I'm not so sure we'll draft a QB in the first round next season even if a pretty good prospect is available.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Gibbsfactor the FO could have selected a QB this draft if they were ready to turn the team over to a rookie. They passed entirely on the position and this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks).

I think you're underestimating how serious Shanahan is about moving forward John Beck. It's natural to be skeptical of the plan to start Beck. But Shanahan's resolve to win with Beck seems pretty clear. I'm not so sure we'll draft a QB in the first round next season even if a pretty good prospect is available.

Greg Cossell had this QB class very overrated. Right now I feel its very obvious they'll go with a QB in 2012, in particular if one of the big 3 is available

[CrypticVillain]

I honestly dont see the Skins being as bad as everyone seems to think they will be.

I was going to start a thread about this, but I think it fits in here:

I understand people are clowning us because of the QB situation and whatnot. But it is a proven fact that in the NFL, when you have a good defense and a good running game, you can win. That is how I see this team conducting this year. A running core of Torian, Hightower, and Helu should be strong. You add that to the fact that we are entering year two of the ZBS and you would think that our carriers will have better holes to run through.

As for the defense, I already addressed how improved we are there. We addressed the line and added depth to Linebacker and the Secondary.

If this team wins less than six games this year, I would be shocked.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Gibbsfactor the FO could have selected a QB this draft if they were ready to turn the team over to a rookie. They passed entirely on the position and this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks).

I think you're underestimating how serious Shanahan is about moving forward John Beck. It's natural to be skeptical of the plan to start Beck. But Shanahan's resolve to win with Beck seems pretty clear. I'm not so sure we'll draft a QB in the first round next season even if a pretty good prospect is available.

if Beck is poor and we dont draft a QB next season with a high draft pick i will want shanahan fired ON draft day.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Gibbsfactor the FO could have selected a QB this draft if they were ready to turn the team over to a rookie. They passed entirely on the position and this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks).

I think you're underestimating how serious Shanahan is about moving forward John Beck. It's natural to be skeptical of the plan to start Beck. But Shanahan's resolve to win with Beck seems pretty clear. I'm not so sure we'll draft a QB in the first round next season even if a pretty good prospect is available.

I honestly believe they intended to, but TN took him from our grasp. And as he was the only one Shanahan coveted, the draft strategy quickly changed (ironically for the better to me as I really wanted Locker too) into the great, expansive draft we ended up with. And now, all things being equal, they'll more than likely get their shot at an even better QB next year.

Hail.

[Going Commando]

Greg Cossell had this QB class very overrated. Right now I feel its very obvious they'll go with a QB in 2012, in particular if one of the big 3 is available

What makes you think that though? What evidence do you have to support that supposition beyond your own desire for us to draft a QB in the first?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I honestly believe they intended to, but TN took him from our grasp. And as he was the only one Shanahan coveted, the draft strategy quickly changed (ironically for the better to me as I really wanted Locker too) into the great, expansive draft we ended up with. And now, all things being equal, they'll more than likely get their shot at an even better QB next year.

Hail.

i agree with this too. i think TN jumped ahead of us and stole our guy. and once we lost out on our future QB, it was trade down city.

so next season we'll have a high draft pick and we can take our guy. i just hope we can get luck, ill be ok with one of the other guys too but luck is being touted as a once a decade QB, and just from watching his highlight reels, dude has it all. not to mention hes extremely intelligent, you dont go to stanford if youre a dummy.

[GibbsFactor]

Gibbsfactor the FO could have selected a QB this draft if they were ready to turn the team over to a rookie. They passed entirely on the position and this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks).

I think you're underestimating how serious Shanahan is about moving forward John Beck. It's natural to be skeptical of the plan to start Beck. But Shanahan's resolve to win with Beck seems pretty clear. I'm not so sure we'll draft a QB in the first round next season even if a pretty good prospect is available.

It's pretty much widely considered that the 2011 draft was not a strong one for Quarterbacks. The reason Shanahan passed on your boy Gabbert is two fold.

A. He isn't that good.

B. The team wasn't ready and needed other pieces.

Shanahan is back tracking his love for Beck and the insiders are now touting Rex as the starter. Shannahan even said he never said Beck would start.

After those facts, is it fair to say that you are overvaluing Beck? Let's be honest, the rest of the country is laughing at this because it is transparent what Shannahn intends to do with this squad.

[Oldfan]

... But it is a proven fact that in the NFL, when you have a good defense and a good running game, you can win.

I think you're living in the past, Amigo. The winning teams in the past decade throw the ball a lot. The average NFL team is at a 60/40 pass/run ratio.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If this team wins less than six games this year, I would be shocked.

Conversely, unless Beck, Grosmann or whomever shock the World and lead from the front becoming what we so crave, I'll be majorly disappointed if we win 6 games or worse, more. If we achieve that number despite, instead of because of good QB play, it will be the single worst thing that could happen IMHO.

It would just keep this franchise in the same ol' tired cycle of mediocrity, made worse by having good young players all going to waste because we have a mediocre field general leading them.

Hail.

[Going Commando]

Edit: Wrong thread.

[repo_4]

if Beck is poor and we dont draft a QB next season with a high draft pick i will want shanahan fired ON draft day.

Any QB? Or the right one? What if there isnt one still available when we draft? I agree we need one but I dont want to reach for the wrong guy either.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Any QB? Or the right one? What if there isnt one still available when we draft? I agree we need one but I dont want to reach for the wrong guy either.

even if this team does the best it can, we'll have a top 10 pick.

and theres multiple QBs coming out. if we dont take one, shanahan has lost his goddamn mind.

[derekc4]

There are no guarantees, but choosing the right strategy increases your odds of winning. A good win-now plan increases the chances of winning in the upcoming season, but drops your chances of ever winning championships. That's the choice you are being asked to make.

While I believe that delayed gratification is a trait that most Americans no longer have, I have to disagree with you completely. It's primarily a semantic argument, but I feel as thought it still valid. Whether the Redskins lose in the first round of the playoffs or go 2-14, it doesn't determine our chance of winning in the future with any certainty. There is no such thing as delayed gratification in the NFL; you always play for this season, because as in life, you are only guaranteed this season (and sometimes not even that). If Mike Shanahan goes 2-14, he might not be here next year. So for him, there is no delayed gratification: it's just a wasted year. However if he goes 6-10 or better or so, he will live for sure to fight another day. Coaches don't do what's best for the franchise, they do what's what's best for their huge salaries and their huge egos.

Do you think Shanahan would rather build a team on the cusp, lose 14 games, but give Luck or Jones to the next head coach? I think he'd rather take a slightly worse prospect with a top 10 or 12 pick (rather than top 3) and keep his job. That would be better for this team anyway. Getting a new coach would require his own coaches and his own players....

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

While I believe that delayed gratification is a trait that most Americans no longer have, I have to disagree with you completely. It's primarily a semantic argument, but I feel as thought it still valid. Whether the Redskins lose in the first round of the playoffs or go 2-14, it doesn't affect OUR chance of winning. There is no such thing as delayed gratification in the NFL; you always play for this season, because as in life, you are only guaranteed this season (and sometimes not even that). If Mike Shanahan goes 2-14, he might not be here next year. So for him, there is no delayed gratification: it's just a wasted year. However if he goes 6-10 or better or so, he will live for sure to fight another day. Coaches don't do what's best for the franchise, they do what's what's best for their huge salaries and their huge egos.

Do you think Shanahan would rather build a team on the cusp, lose 14 games, but give Luck or Jones to the next head coach? I think he'd rather take a slightly worse prospect with a top 10 or 12 pick (rather than top 3) and keep his job. That would be better for this team anyway. Besides getting a new coach would want his own coaches and his own players....

or hes already told snyder prepare for a **** year because one of these studs next year is gonna be ours, and not only will he help us win, hes gonna sell you more jerseys than portis did?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

What makes you think that though? What evidence do you have to support that supposition beyond your own desire for us to draft a QB in the first?

This is part speculation on my part as regards this year, and part fact; all of which leads me to be in no doubt a QB is Shanahan's number 1 priority.

When he got here, his first move was to identify that Campbell wasn't remotely good enough, and end the Captain Checkdown experiment. He then went in REAL hard by all accounts for Bradford, but we just didn't have enough ammo to sway the Rams sadly Not rating anyone else in his first draft as being of sufficient franchise caliber quality, he then traded for, what on the face of it at the time was a prudent move, a proven veteran QB in McNabb to lead on and off the field and help transition everything quicker. That having failed, I fully believe as I mentioned a few posts back, Locker was our man this time out. But TN usurped us there. Not rating anyone else of that ilk, he's taken the prudent option again to go with the cheap guys we have, hope they pan out into something; whilst having the safeguard of snagging a potentially fantastic one next year.

3 QB's in two years. Two young, potential franchise caliber; and a proven veteran. There's little question in my mind that getting his guy under center is the number one priority.

Hail.

[derekc4]

or hes already told snyder prepare for a **** year because one of these studs next year is gonna be ours, and not only will he help us win, hes gonna sell you more jerseys than portis did?

I think having another disastrous season would be worse for the bottomline (what we think is most important to Snyder) than the influx of jersey sales from a new quarterback. Didn't they remove sections of the stadium due to lack of season ticket sales?

[GibbsFactor]

I think having another disastrous season would be worse for the bottomline (what we think is most important to Snyder) than the influx of jersey sales from a new quarterback. Didn't they remove sections of the stadium due to lack of season ticket sales?

I suggest you broaden your scope. The only way to fix ticket sales is by winning. How do you win in the NFL?

[Crazy Levi]

It would just keep this franchise in the same ol' tired cycle of mediocrity,Hail.

Actually, it's Dan Snyder who is responsible for that, yet you don't seem to have any problems with him. Yet the idea of actually winning some games this year freaks you out.

Far out, man.

[repo_4]

even if this team does the best it can, we'll have a top 10 pick.

and theres multiple QBs coming out. if we dont take one, shanahan has lost his goddamn mind.

We have to have one, that is a fact. But we are not getting Luck (unless he has a Jake Locker type season and slips). I just dont want to have the FO panic and start trading away future picks to move up to get a guy they werent really targeting because all of the others are already gone.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I think having another disastrous season would be worse for the bottomline (what we think is most important to Snyder) than the influx of jersey sales from a new quarterback. Didn't they remove sections of the stadium due to lack of season ticket sales?

id bet money he did that because jerry jones has that at the new cowboys stadium and hes trying to compete with him. they added party decks which will hold more people and probably make more money than the season tix did.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think having another disastrous season would be worse for the bottomline (what we think is most important to Snyder) than the influx of jersey sales from a new quarterback. Didn't they remove sections of the stadium due to lack of season ticket sales?

Honestly, and I appreciate many don't share this view given his previous, I think Snyder's quite happy and has signed off on Allen and Shanahan getting the initial 5 years regardless of results so long as they follow the plan he's been sold on. He's tried it his way and failed miserably over and over. Now he's prepared to give it a good go at doing it the right way.

I honestly don't think Shanahan's position is under any threat this year regardless of what the final record is.

Hail.

[derekc4]

I suggest you broaden your scope. The only way to fix ticket sales is by winning. How do you win in the NFL?

Not by deciding to tank before the season starts. You can never win this way! Maybe if by week 10 we are 1-9 or 1-8 it would be more appropriate. You win by having well run systems and schemes with the talent to match them. Why waste a season to draft someone who will probably be good (no guarantee)? How often does tanking work? It sure worked for the Cavs!

Maybe you should broaden your scope.