Yahoo: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta

[PeterMP]

I can see that reasoning.

OTOH, I also have to admit that when I read that, what I thought of are the people claiming that the people who hire illegal immigrants aren't part of the illegal immigration problem. Whereas when I think of their role in that problem, what I imagine are people standing on the US side of the border, waving $100 bills at starving Mexicans, calling "I'll give you this, if you make it across".

Larry, though that's an argument for not bothering to assess or even enforce anything.

How can we expect our police to stay honest when there is so much incentive from the criminal element to become corrupt?

We all know what the answer is. It is to adjust the penalty and odds of getting caught with respect to the value of not getting caught.

If illegal immigrants were very likely to get caught and there was a serious penalty for getting caught, we'd have fewer illegal immigrants. We have many fewer corrupt cops in this country vs. the number of illegal immigrants because cops live relatively well and the penalties for getting caught are substantial.

[Larry]

And yet, there are still padding of performance reviews, and padding of stats across the board. You say most companies behave ethically, I would ask you to prove that assertion. Because, I don't believe that most people in this world will act ethically when their bonuses and jobs are on the line...case in point the economic collapse.

Interesting analogy, and one that I'll admit I can see some parallels, too.

One thing that I've been seeing, across society, (I don't know if this is a spreading moral trend, or if it's just a case of me seeing something that's always been there), but I think of it as the tendency for supervisors to have a policy of "Just make the numbers look good, and don't tell me how you did it."

I would assert, for example, that that's what happened at Abu Gahrib, to pick a really OT example.

I seem to see a lot of instances, across society, (I've seen it in my own employment), where it becomes plain over time that what The Boss wants is to have rules that say one thing, ("any employee caught working 'off the clock' will be fired"), but what they want is for employees to break the rule. The boss gets credit for the great numbers. If the cheating gets exposed, then the boss points at the rule and says "gee, I told them not to do that".

[PeterMP]

Never said that either, but to think that testing is the be all and end all is head in the sand thinking, self preservation is the strongest human motivation and you threaten people and they will respond accordingly, for better or worse, and in most cases for worse.

We don't have an abundance, but we are cutting school budgets every year, and in fact several good teachers have been laid off in the past few years here.

Nobody is saying that testing is the be all and end all. The problem is that your argument isn't an argument against testing, it is an argument against assessment.

What method of assessment wouldn't these people have cheated on?

And that in fact suggests that you do have an abundance of teachers. I'm sure the people that got laid off wanted to keep their jobs. There are more teachers right now then there is demand for them.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 09:05 AM ----------

Yes it is. 50 random questions that ask you facts don't determine whether you can apply concepts to real life. Is it really important to know what exact day this certain General marched through New Orleans during the Civil War? No. Does it count on a test? Yes.

I'd be curious to see you point to a test that is used in assessment by a state that has such a question on it.

[Larry]

Larry, though that's an argument for not bothering to assess or even enforce anything.

How can we expect our police to stay honest when there is so much incentive from the criminal element to become corrupt?

We all know what the answer is. It is to adjust the penalty and odds of getting caught with respect to the value of not getting caught.

If illegal immigrants were very likely to get caught and there was a serious penalty for getting caught, we'd have fewer illegal immigrants. We have many fewer corrupt cops in this country vs. the number of illegal immigrants because cops live relatively well and the penalties for getting caught are substantial.

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't punish illegal immigration. (I've been called a far-right Nazi on this board, because of my statements on illegal immigration.)

I'm saying that I have a problem with the argument that the people who are handing out big bucks for cheating have no responsibility at all for the cheating.

[Busch1724]

Is there any mechanism of assessment that you suspect these people wouldn't have cheated on?

Your argument is general to all mechanisms of assessment and generally leads to the conclusion that we can't assess learning/education.

We can use the test results and analyze them appropriately, however when you tie funding to the issue that is when you will get the cheating. I think one solution, certainly not perfect, would be to have these tests designed in such a way that there is accountability on the student end. That could be passing the test to graduate or moving to the next grade. If the student doesn't pass then there is summer tutoring that is required to move on.

The thing is most kids perform well at the lower grade levels. Once the students get to high school, they have a very negative perspective toward the tests and blow them off. I know students at the high school I teach at will just fill in bubbles to get done as quickly as possible. They will tell you afterward. Rewarding students with free parking passes, gift certificates, etc. (these are a couple extrinsic rewards our school has tried) don't work. Pennsylvania is looking as getting rid of our standardized testing at the high school level and working on graduation competency exams within the next couple of years. The problem with those are there is going to be so much material to cover for the exam as written now. It's better, but not perfect.

The ironic thing is that I believe GA uses graduation exams now. Without digging around a little more; I would suspect the bulk of this cheating scandal is at the elementary and middle school levels. The article doesn't say which grades this scandal involves.

[PeterMP]

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't punish illegal immigration. (I've been called a far-right Nazi on this board, because of my statements on illegal immigration.)

I'm saying that I have a problem with the argument that the people who are handing out big bucks for cheating have no responsibility at all for the cheating.

Nobody paid big bucks for cheating. The people that paid didn't benefit from the cheating, unlike the illegal immigration situation where companies benefit from illegal immigration via reduced labor costs.

[Sticksboi05]

Nobody is saying that testing is the be all and end all. The problem is that your argument isn't an argument against testing, it is an argument against assessment.

What method of assessment wouldn't these people have cheated on?

And that in fact suggests that you do have an abundance of teachers. I'm sure the people that got laid off wanted to keep their jobs. There are more teachers right now then there is demand for them.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 09:05 AM ----------

I'd be curious to see you point to a test that is used in assessment by a state that has such a question on it.

I've seen questions like that on standardized tests I guarantee I took much more recently than you.

I'm not one of those "eliminate all testing" people but there needs to be changes and not a reliance on one 50 question test to determine if you should advance. Teachers have to skip so much **** just to prepare for that stupid crap.

[Busch1724]

The other thing is that 99% percent of these standardized tests are multiple choice, with a couple written essays on the writing portions of the exams. Any teacher will tell you that multiple choice and true/false tests do not assess what a student really knows. If we really want to assess the kids, there also needs to be a different form of the exam to eliminate the ease of guessing.

[PeterMP]

We can use the test results and analyze them appropriately, however when you tie funding to the issue that is when you will get the cheating. I think one solution, certainly not perfect, would be to have these tests designed in such a way that there is accountability on the student end.

Okay, let's be honest. These people weren't cheating because they wanted to see their school get $5 million and not $1 million dollars. They were cheating because it helped them in their jobs. They got to keep their jobs, probably got performance bonuses and were probably looked upon favorably for promotions.

Now, if you aren't going to tie those things to assessment, then I don't know what the purpose of assessment is because then you have assessment without consequences, which seems completely useless to me.

Student accountability is certainly an issue with any standardized test.

[NavyDave]

No Child Left Behind: Yet another failed Bush era policy that still lives in the supposed "change" administration.

Yet it was Teddy Kennedy who was given props for this in a good way at his eulogy. People conveniently ignore the fact that Dubba Ya in essence gave Teddy a blank check which ended up being at the time the largest education spending bill in history.

[Busch1724]

Witht that said, we won't see any change away from the testing because the companies invovled are lobbyists and the governemnt will do what they can to keep them afloat.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 09:21 AM ----------

Okay, let's be honest. These people weren't cheating because they wanted to see their school get $5 million and not $1 million dollars. They were cheating because it helped them in their jobs. They got to keep their jobs, probably got performance bonuses and were probably looked upon favorably for promotions.

Now, if you aren't going to tie those things to assessment, then I don't know what the purpose of assessment is because then you have assessment without consequences, which seems completely useless to me.

Student accountability is certainly an issue with any standardized test.

You kind of made your own point, put the accountability on the student...that is where the consequences should be. The schools should work with parents once the testing is done to work on deficient areas if there are any. If it needs to be done after school hours or during the summer, teachers could be getting paid overtime, that in effect would be their bonus. As it is now, that is not the case.

[Larry]

'Course, I think that part of the problem is the "the money goes to the school that gets the best score" rule.

To me, the money ought to go to the schools that do worst. Society needs to be focusing on the schools that are failing, not the ones where things are already doing well.

Just as an aside, I think that if resources got focused on the schools that did the worst, I think it's a safe bet that you wouldn't see teachers cheating to try to make their scores worse.

----------

I've also seen the claim made, here in ES, by an educator, concerning what he claimed were the real-world consequences of this testing craze:

• The students who are doing above average, are ignored, because they're going to do well on the test.
  
• The students who are below average, near failing, have lavish attention paid to them, to try to pull them up into passing.
  
• The ones who aren't close to passing are under tremendous pressure to label as handicapped in some way, any way, so that their failing test scores won't count.

Now, I'm not 100% certain that that's the completely wrong approach. To me, the correct way to measure the success of public education is to measure how well the students who are, say, 20% from the bottom, do. Not to measure how well the student who graduates #2 in his class does.

But I'm not certain that the above-listed, supposedly real-world effects are really the desired results, either.

[Busch1724]

'Course, I think that part of the problem is the "the money goes to the school that gets the best score" rule.

Not disagreeing with you here (playing devils advocate), but then what would be the incentive for schools to do better? Could make the case that schools should be equally funded per pupil, whether they are high performing or not. There is no perfect system because you can't regulate parenting.

Research reveals a couple of things regarding student achievement, but the one correlary that is common across the board is this: student success is directly tied to the highest level of education of the mother of the student. Poverty rates, attendence, IQ, etc. are all tied to the level of education of the mother.

[pointyfootball]

Education can not be fixed at the federal level. Has to be local/state efforts. I don't buy the lack of parental involvement as much as I used to, because I know I am WAY more involved than my parents were (as are most that I observe). Additionally, topics are being taught at an earlier age, and yet kids are still "underperforming".

Edited for my poor public school education!

[PeterMP]

'Course, I think that part of the problem is the "the money goes to the school that gets the best score" rule.

To me, the money ought to go to the schools that do worst. Society needs to be focusing on the schools that are failing, not the ones where things are already doing well.

Just as an aside, I think that if resources got focused on the schools that did the worst, I think it's a safe bet that you wouldn't see teachers cheating to try to make their scores worse.

----------

I've also seen the claim made, here in ES, by an educator, concerning what he claimed were the real-world consequences of this testing craze:

• The students who are doing above average, are ignored, because they're going to do well on the test.
  
• The students who are below average, near failing, have lavish attention paid to them, to try to pull them up into passing.
  
• The ones who aren't close to passing are under tremendous pressure to label as handicapped in some way, any way, so that their failing test scores won't count.

Now, I'm not 100% certain that that's the completely wrong approach. To me, the correct way to measure the success of public education is to measure how well the students who are, say, 20% from the bottom, do. Not to measure how well the student who graduates #2 in his class does.

But I'm not certain that the above-listed, supposedly real-world effects are really the desired results, either.

Again, these people weren't cheating so their schools could get more money and buy better/newer textbooks, new computers, etc. The first thing that has to happen for a poorly performing school is a 2 year plan to turn it around. Those plans often include giving them more money. It isn't until a school has underperformed and not shown improvement after several years (even after the 2 years there is another period where there is a plan to turn it around) does funding get cut and the school is normally closed.

They were cheating because schools that repeatedly do poorly get taken over by the state and/or federal government and many of the employees get released. They were cheating because as an administrator, if you want to keep your job, or be attractive for another job/promotion, it helps to have good scores.

Testing and assessment can be done to take into account a wide range of students and to give credit however "we" decide. It isn't hard to put a some above grade level questions on a test and essentially give a school bonus points based on how well the students do on them.

Clearly, labeling kids as "handicap" because they are underperforming is a form of cheating and would be possible under essentially any method of assessment so has very little to do with standardized tests.

[DieselPwr44]

How do you measure that growth or competency though?

By looking at their body of work during the year?

We've all seen this when we went to school: Johnny or Sue was absolutely awesome in a normal classroom setting but come test time, fall apart.

My wife teaches second grade and End of Grade Testing begins in third. She administers this test to third graders(cause her school is short staffed).

The school system uses this as an end all/be all with no consideration to what they've done during the year and no matter if that student started out below grade level and finished the year on grade level.

Surely there's a way to tweak things to make them better or a different way?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I've got to agree with twa here.

Can somebody explain to me how we can expect teachers that are willing to cheat and lie to be "honest" teachers and be honest about grades?

The testing isn't driving the cheating. The incompetence is driving the cheating.

The impossible standards are driving the cheating. The rules are basically everyone passes the test or you - as a district - fail. So, if a kid has a 86 IQ, pisses himself in class, and is obsessed with burning things, he still has to read at grade level.

[Kilmer17]

The impossible standards are driving the cheating. The rules are basically everyone passes the test or you - as a district - fail. So' date=' if a kid has a 86 IQ, pisses himself in class, and is obsessed with burning things, he still has to read at grade level.[/quote']

Well said.

It's the problem we create in all parts of society. Every kid gets a trophy in sports. We dont keep score so nobody can lose. We compare schools and kids based on tests that everyone is expected to pass.

If everyone wins, then nobody does.

[PeterMP]

The impossible standards are driving the cheating. The rules are basically everyone passes the test or you - as a district - fail. So' date=' if a kid has a 86 IQ, pisses himself in class, and is obsessed with burning things, he still has to read at grade level.[/quote']

Except that isn't true. If that were true, every school district in the country would be failing. What they want to see for now, is that schools are improving.

Is that so bad?

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 10:52 AM ----------

By looking at their body of work during the year?

We've all seen this when we went to school: Johnny or Sue was absolutely awesome in a normal classroom setting but come test time, fall apart.

My wife teaches second grade and End of Grade Testing begins in third. She administers this test to third graders(cause her school is short staffed).

The school system uses this as an end all/be all with no consideration to what they've done during the year and no matter if that student started out below grade level and finished the year on grade level.

Surely there's a way to tweak things to make them better or a different way?

Are you talking about student assessement or teacher/school assessment?

I don't understand at all why student assessment would drive large scale cheating by a school district.

[Busch1724]

Except that isn't true. If that were true, every school district in the country would be failing. What they want to see for now, is that schools are improving.

Is that so bad?

That is not true. If AYP (adequate yearly progress) is 60% of student proficient on a standardized test for 2011 (not true, just creating a scenario). In 2012 AYP might be 67%. Now the school in 2011 had 55% of students meet AYP and in 2012 58% of student made AYP, that school is now on the warning list. They improved, but not enough. Under NCLB, the benchmark was eventually that 100% of students would meet AYP/proficient. Here's the actual AYP targets:

READING:

2008-2010 – 63%

2011 – 72%

2012 – 81%

2013 – 91%

2014 – 100%

MATH:

2008-2010 – 56%

2011 – 67%

2012 – 78%

2013 – 89%

2014 – 100%

You can be a school that scores 85% in math in 2013 and begin the process of being put on the warning list. School funding is tied to this and wonder why there is cheating?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Sounds about right.

That's exactly right, teaching the test. That doesn't mean the kids are learning the material, it just means they learned the answers to the test and no matter what others may say, the two are NOT the same. Plus, what someone else said, schools that score the best get the most money...what sense does this make? If the NFL used this thinking Detroit would pick last every year, and New Orleans would have never won the Super Bowl, if you really want to improve failing schools you fund them better, and no it's not a matter of "just throwing money at them", but my guess is that if you take a look at the best performing schools and the worst ones you'll be able to tell the difference of which is which based on school funding. Well funded schools do well...poorly funded schools...do poorly.

now I'll wait for someone to post some anecdotal evidence of a poorly funded school that performs well that only serves as the exception that proves the rule.

[PeterMP]

That is not true. If AYP (adequate yearly progress) is 60% of student proficient on a standardized test for 2011 (not true, just creating a scenario). In 2012 AYP might be 67%. Now the school in 2011 had 55% of students meet AYP and in 2012 58% of student made AYP, that school is now on the warning list. They improved, but not enough. Under NCLB, the benchmark was eventually that 100% of students would meet AYP/proficient. Here's the actual AYP targets:

READING:

2008-2010 – 63%

2011 – 72%

2012 – 81%

2013 – 91%

2014 – 100%

MATH:

2008-2010 – 56%

2011 – 67%

2012 – 78%

2013 – 89%

2014 – 100%

You can be a school that scores 85% in math in 2013 and begin the process of being put on the warning list. School funding is tied to this and wonder why there is cheating?

What isn't true? That you don't have to have everybody at grade level? It is true. Your own numbers show it. His post was wrong. You don't have to have everybody at grade level or be considered a failed school. You have to meet some level of improvement.

The other thing is that 100% isn't even really 100% so even in 2014, assuming the law isn't changed, it isn't really 100%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Variability_in_student_potential_and_100.25_compliance

"In fact, the "all" in NCLB means only 95% of students, because states must report the assessment scores of 95% of students when calculating Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) scores.[43] Students who have an Individual Education Plan (IEP) and who are assessed must receive the accommodations specified in the IEP during assessment; if these accommodations do not change the nature of the assessment, then these students' scores are counted the same as any other student's score. Common acceptable changes include extended test time, testing in a quieter room, translation of math problems into the student's native language, or allowing a student to type answers instead of writing them by hand.

Simply being classified as having special education needs does not automatically exempt students from assessment. Most students with mild disabilities or physical disabilities take the same test as non-disabled students.

In addition to not requiring 5% of students to be assessed at all, regulations allow schools to use alternate assessments to declare up to 1% of all students proficient for the purposes of the Act.[44] States are given broad discretion in selecting alternate assessments. For example, a school may accept an Advanced Placement test for English in lieu of the English test written by the state, and simplified tests for students with significant cognitive disabilities. The Virginia Alternate Assessment Program (VAAP) and Virginia Grade Level Alternative (VGLA) options, for example, are portfolio assessments."

And on top of that, the Dept. of Ed. gives out waivers to schools NOW so just because you don't meet the criteria doesn't guarantee anything.

Our schools stink. Essentially everybody admits it and yet when it is discovered that there is widespread cheating by administrators, teachers, and principals, we blame the assessment.

I'm completely shocked and stunned by the response. Though, I'm now much less surprised that our schools stink.

[endzone_dave]

You have standardized testing to measure the progress (or lack of) of the education process. You don't punish the teacher/schools for the results. That's basic process improvement principles.

[The Sisko]

So the answer is to leave people in place that clearly don't have the kids best interest as a priority?

And I don't know where you live, but right now there is an over abundance of teachers in NJ for most grades. They canceled an "annual" teacher's job fair last year in my part of NJ and didn't even bother to try and put one together this year.

Whether there's an abundance of teachers in a given area is moot. What's important is whether there's an abundance of good teachers available. Good teachers are a bit harder to come by. Besides, there's an abundance of people available in most job categories these days due to budget cuts, layoffs, etc.

I agree with Corcaigh that performance assessment occurs all the time in other industries. Hell, even in the classroom kids are expected to pass non-standardized tests designed to assess their learning. However I suspect that many on the right don't like standardized testing because they see it as just more govt. intrusion. So if standardized tests set a minimum level of performance in basic skills that obstructs/minimizes the teaching of creationism and other foolishness, that's a good thing in my book.

As for the left, I think most of them don't like standardized tests because they want to mollycoddle incompetent teachers to placate the teacher's unions. Of course the kids end up being the real losers in all this. :doh:

In fairness though I don't think standardized testing is a panacea. After all, such tests are only looking at one variable in a complex system and student underachievement can be caused by a variety of factors.

[Rudechain]

Standardized testing and benchmarks for hours of instruction ( the second one is touchy but I will explain later), are probably the underlying factors in this.

Students learn at differing rates and they may not have the same triggers that encourage learning and/or critical thinking. It's patently obvious that our public education system really needs to step up but how they go about it I am not sure. I do remember seeing an article about how one particular school has adapted it's curriculum to a more individualized approach based on individual students and their abilities and while still early the initial results seemed encouraging. ( wish I could remember where I saw that) But currently, it seems like we are still trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

(hours of instruction) and this one had my wife and I upset. Back in the early 90's we lived in Alexandria and were raising my nephew and niece. Well he went to Cameron Elementary at the time and I thought very highly of the administrative staff and teachers. Well my wife would receive a call often in the early afternoons, as did quite a few other parents, with these kids acting up in class. Of course we had the "talk" with him about behavior, and spoke with the teachers as well as the Vice Principal. That's when we found out several students were having this same issue.

Well we found out that these kids had no recess during the day and would go to class immediately after eating lunch. No wonder these kids were acting up! If they could burn that energy, then they would not be as much of a problem during the afternoons. ( and a large majority of these "problems" occurred in the afternoon. Not just our nephew but several students)

When we spoke with the teachers and administrative staff, they replied they had to meet "benchmarks" for hours of instruction/teaching in math,science and a myriad of other subjects. What they found was that there were simply not enough hours in the school year for them to meet those standards and still allow the students a recess. So in there innate wisdom, they felt curtailing a chance to burn that energy was a better plan of action. However, I am a little suspect of this idea because of the amount of time taken away from instruction to instill discipline.

Education is dynamic and there is no "fix" that will work for everyone as far as I can tell. I do believe there needs to be a standard of what you have learned to graduate, I don't think it needs to be instituted in elementary school. Personally, I think if we were to base that standard off of the Scholastic Aptitude Test it would make more sense. But again, I don't think there is any one fix.