Where does Shaq rank all time for centers?

[boobiemiles]

4th. He was better than Akeem.

[Sticksboi05]

4th. He was better than Akeem.

Understanding that you saw Hakeem in his prime and I did not so you don't have to pull an annoying Bubble Screen cop-out, do you put 5-8 more PPG over Defensive First Team and DPOTY play? Just asking, not being a smartass.

[Skins_Fan82]

Top 5. No question.

I remember his rookie season when he was tearing down the rims....

[ABQCOWBOY]

4th. He was better than Akeem.

No, he probably wasn't better then Akeem. At least I don't think he was. Olajuwan was the most complete Center I've ever seen play. He had excellent footwork. A lot of moves around the basket, an extremely difficult to defend turn around jumper. He had quickness and agility that was as good as I've ever seen in a post player. He could run the floor, he could jump out of the gym, he could pass out of the double, he could board on both ends of the floor, he could shoot the mid range jumper, he could block shots as well as anybody I ever watched play and he was one of the top 5 defensive Centers I ever saw play. He was also a better then 70% Free Throw shooter for his career.

He was exceptional. At least, that is my opinion.

[Skins_Fan82]

^dude...what was it...94? When they won. I remember that baseline jump hook being SO nasty. There was literally nothing you could do about it.

[Destino]

Destino, I think that's a great analysis. I would just add one other thing. Non of your states really deal with defense and the NBA in Russel's day was predudiced in favor of offense.... The one state I would add would be the ability to dominate a game defensively like nobody before or after him. You are right Russel was undersized. But so what. He was fast, was an excellent jumper, and incredible defensive player. Arguable he was the most dominant center in the history of the game. He just didn't do it offensively so folks hold that against him.

The problem with that is that the rules have changed now. Defense in the current league (3 second rule, hand checking, forearm) isn't played the same way.

[PeterMP]

Destino, I think that's a great analysis. I would just add one other thing. Non of your states really deal with defense and the NBA in Russel's day was predudiced in favor of offense.... The one state I would add would be the ability to dominate a game defensively like nobody before or after him. You are right Russel was undersized. But so what. He was fast, was an excellent jumper, and incredible defensive player. Arguable he was the most dominant center in the history of the game. He just didn't do it offensively so folks hold that against him.

His defensive win shares put him #1 by a wide margin, but he is still on 16th for total win share and well behind Kareem and Wilt.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

---------- Post added June-2nd-2011 at 07:02 PM ----------

This argument's ridiculous. The Magic got swept by the Rockets.

Shaq - 28 PPG 12.5 RPG 6.3 APG 0.3 SPG 2.5 BPG on 59.5% from the field

Hakeem - 32.3 PPG 11.5 RPG 5.8 APG 3.5 SPG 1.5 BPG on 48.3% from the field

It's funny to hear the argument that "Hakeem had no teammates". Let's look at Hakeem's teammates in the '95 Finals..

Game 1: Kenny Smith hit 7 3-pointers and had 23, as did Clyde Drexler (remember him?). Robert Horry had 19 points, 8 rebounds and 5 blocks.

Game 2: Sam Cassell had 31 off of the bench, Clyde goes for 23

Game 3, Drexler had 25 points and 13 rebounds, Robert Horry had 20 points and 9 rebounds, and Mario Elie had 17 points

Game 4: Horry had 21 points and 13 rebounds, Mario Elie had 22 points.

And Shaq had...Penny.

Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, and Horace Grant were all on that Orlando team too and considered pretty good players.

[Heisenberg]

Definitely #1 in my mind.

http://www.tout.com/m/jgm0gr

[deejaydana]

I'll tell you one area where Shaq is almost w/o peer: Product pitcher and marketing icon. The guy has been so bankable for so many companies and products for so long I'd say he's right up there alongside MJ and Magic (maybe even more so but this is more because he benefited from the foundation they laid before him). he still does so many endorsements even in the twilight of his career.

BTW: Rumor has it he's also never spent a dime from his NBA paychecks (though I'm sure his ex wife is now feasting on that pile of loot he's amassed).

[skinfan2k]

Wilt, Russell, Jabbar, The Dream, Shaq

[Sticksboi05]

I'll tell you one area where Shaq is almost w/o peer: Product pitcher and marketing icon. The guy has been so bankable for so many companies and products for so long I'd say he's right up there alongside MJ and Magic (maybe even more so but this is more because he benefited from the foundation they laid before him). he still does so many endorsements even in the twilight of his career.

BTW: Rumor has it he's also never spent a dime from his NBA paychecks (though I'm sure his ex wife is now feasting on that pile of loot he's amassed).

Pretty sure Jordan is still doing Hanes commercials.

[deejaydana]

Pretty sure Jordan is still doing Hanes commercials.

I mean his total body of work. Shaq is the ultimate pitch man because he enjoys the limelight much more than Jordan ever has. No fault there of course.

[megared]

His defensive win shares put him #1 by a wide margin, but he is still on 16th for total win share and well behind Kareem and Wilt.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

---------- Post added June-2nd-2011 at 07:02 PM ----------

Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, and Horace Grant were all on that Orlando team too and considered pretty good players.

But the argument was that somehow Hakeem had no help. Revisionists make it seem like Hakeem averaged 40 and 20 a game while limiting Shaq to 10 & 5. Or overlook that he had a HOFer in Drexler on his team.

[C26 Run]

Russell

Wilt

Kareem

Hakeem

Shaq

:helmet:

[boobiemiles]

shaq's 1st ten years blows Hakeem's out the water.

[PeterMP]

But the argument was that somehow Hakeem had no help. Revisionists make it seem like Hakeem averaged 40 and 20 a game while limiting Shaq to 10 & 5. Or overlook that he had a HOFer in Drexler on his team.

You responded to a post that simply stated that Hakeem beat Shaq, which he did. You then went on to state that Hakeem had all sorts of help from people like Horry and Kenny Smith, while Shaq only Penny.

The fact of the matter is that before the series most people thought the teams were pretty evenly matched. Yes, Drexler is a HOF, but he is really an HOF for the years in Portland where he was an amazing open court player. He was clearly on the downside of his career by the time he went to Houston. At the time, I think most people right then would have called him and Penny a toss up.

The likes of Scott, Grant, and Anderson were considered solid players and at least of similar skill to the supporting casts.

[Sticksboi05]

shaq's 1st ten years blows Hakeem's out the water.

Not when you factor in defense.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In '95, Penny was considered a far far better player than Drexler. Penny was an All-NBA first teamer that year. From '94 to '96, I would think most people thought Penny was a Top Five player with potential to win multiple MVPs.

Here is a fun question: What is the NBA's all-time forgotten team?

From this thread, the center is Moses. Kemp is probably the power forward. Penny is the small forward. Sydney Moncreif is the 2 guard.

Who is the point guard? Mo Cheeks? Norm Nixon?

God, that would be an awesome team. I would have a +25 rebounding edge in every game.

[Thiebear]

8 movies to include Steel and Kazaam, has to be top 6.

[DCranon21]

Shaq is top 3 easily. His 1999-00 MVP season was something nice. Besides him getting owned by Akeem in the 95 Finals, he had to be the most dominating force in the middle for about 16 years. In the 95 playoffs, no one I mean no one could stop Akeem. I think David Robinson is still having nightmares from that WCF.

[Destino]

You responded to a post that simply stated that Hakeem beat Shaq, which he did. You then went on to state that Hakeem had all sorts of help from people like Horry and Kenny Smith, while Shaq only Penny.

Hakeem's team beat Shaq's team. Look closer at the stats.

1 - Shaq held Hakeem to 48% from the field. He averaged 57.4% that season. Hakeem shot 10+ more shots per game than Shaq.

2 - Shaq had more rebounds

3 - Shaq had more assists

4 - Shaq had more blocks

What does this mean? Hakeem had more help.

[PeterMP]

Hakeem's team beat Shaq's team. Look closer at the stats.

1 - Shaq held Hakeem to 48% from the field. He averaged 57.4% that season. Hakeem shot 10+ more shots per game than Shaq.

2 - Shaq had more rebounds

3 - Shaq had more assists

4 - Shaq had more blocks

What does this mean? Hakeem had more help.

I doubt a team has ever been swept by another team in a 7 game series where the best player on the team that won didn't get more help from the other players than the best player on the team that lost.

My point is simple though. The Magic were considered to have other good players. People didn't look at that series as a mismatch.

It wasn't considered to be Penny and Shaq against Hakeem, Drexler, Horry, Anderson, etc where Shaq and Penny were going to be completely overwhelmed by the superior over all talent of the Rockets.

I don't think that series is a considerable argument for Shaq vs. Hakeem. Hakeem was in his prime and Shaq was still pretty young.