Report: Redskins front-runners for V. Young

[TK]

TK just posted that Shanahan values Fishers evaluation of QB's greatly.

Thanks for twisting what I said to fit your stance. :slap:

[SkinsTribeVA]

Ok... So let's play a game...

It's called quarterback A vs. quaterback B. You tell me which you prefer:

QB A:

-Has finished 0 of his seasons starting in all 16 games

-8.33 wins per season when he started 10 or more games

-1:1 TD to INT ratio for his career

-6.8 yards per passing attempt for career

-75 QB rating

QB B:

-33% of his seasons were completed starting all 16 games

-Over 9 wins per season

-2:1 TD to INT ratio

-6.9 YPA

-85.7 QB rating

Let's also say that QB A has a history of mental issues and QB B has a history of being a classy and well respected player.

If you guessed A was Young and B was McNabb, you'd be right.

So let's get this straight...

McNabb, who is more of a proven winner, plays in more games a year, has no mental health issues, has a better QB rating, better YPA, a better TD:INT ratio by a large margin isn't good enough to play for the Redskins... (which, for the record, I agree with, at least in his age/in this system...

But someone with mental instability fits well?

Alrighty then.

I want nothing to do with Vince Young. He'd be another major blunder in the Shanahan era... And it's just off the heels of Allen and Shanahan doing a great thing in the NFL Draft.

I don't see it happening.

VY's rating over his first three years in the league: 67.4

In the last two years: 82.8, 98.6

Plus McNabb is 34, VY is 27.

I don't think many people (if anyone) on here are saying we should sign VY as our franchise QB. Assuming McNabb gets shipped out soon, IMO we should sign both VY and Grossman (and don't offer VY much more than Rex), make the job Grossman's job to lose considering how he finished out last season, and let VY and Beck battle it out for the #2. If/when Grossman falters this season, try starting the #2 for a few games.

I would still expect us to draft a young QB next year, and this way we'd have competition for him (whoever's left at #2 at season's end) and hopefully a decent starter (whoever ends up at #1) while the young guy sits a year or two.

I understand the argument about VY having a possible negative influence over the young QB. Well if the coaches get to work with VY for a year they can make the decision about whether or not to keep him around once we get a young guy. If VY's trade value has increased during his year in DC, all the better.

edit: plus Kyle has the Texas connection to VY, so he should have some insight. If he OK's the move, I have faith.

[TK]

He took the Broncos the playoffs twice as wild card teams. And after the second wild card berth was replaced as the starter when Mike grew tired of his performances. Plummer was a 4 year starter before being replaced and was a completely different QB then Vince Young ever would be.

Actually, Plummer was replaced for going camping instead of showing up for volunteer off season practices.

[Lavarleap56]

It holds alot of water when your discussing young as a "bad" player and not person.I hear you about 2009 but he improved leaps and bounds on the field in 2010.A gameplan for Vince young and Kerry Collins are going to naturally be completely different because there two different qbs. Collins will never be a threat to run from pressure. Young has and uses the ability to run when the pressure causes it so pass attempt gets turned into a run attempt. Johnson had more carries due to Tennessee being ahead playing ball control.

[CRobi21]

The only doubts one should have about VY is his off the field issues.

He's a more athletic version of Jake Locker, has showed he can stand tall and be accurate in the pocket, and already has valuable NFL experience. If Shanahan thinks he has shed his image of being immature and having trouble off the field, I say bring him on in. He will cost next to nothing but maybe some headlines if we're to sign him. But we're used to being in the press 24/7 good or bad so this will be no different.

[MartinC]

So I know stats are not everything - its winning that counts and stats are for fantasy owners - but does whats below scream quality NFL QB?

Vince Young has a career high of just over 2,500 yards passing.

His career season high is 12 TDs (Grossman had 7 in 3 starts last season)

On his career he completes just over 57% of his passes.

I was also surprised that for a guy who is as good a runner as VY his career high is only just over 500 yards in a season and that was his rookie year.

I think what VY does really well is hand off to Chris Johnson and shout "stop 'em" to a good defense.

[jflow78]

One drive but these guys know qbs pretty well. He has improved and will continue to do so.

Okay, so this is my best breakdown:

1st down at the 1: He scrambles a little, and throws a 6 yard pass accurately to the receiver.

2nd and 4 at the 7: He throws a 2 yard pass to his 2nd or 3rd progression, after the cut, and it's late and the receiver and the ball are out of bounds, but it was accurate.

3rd and 4 at the 7 (in shotgun): He throws an 11 yard pass to his 1st progression and it's too low and into the dirt. He could have thrown it to the outside shoulder and it would have had a chance.

4th and 4 at the 7 (in shotgun): Throws a 9 yard pass to the receiver who jumps over the DB and makes a great catch. If the CB had been looking, it would probably have been knocked down or INTed.

1st at the 17: pass is tipped and luckily falls into a Titans receiver's hands. He went through his progression quickly, but if that pass hadn't been tipped it had a very good chance of getting picked off by the safety who was inside the receiver, as is shown in the replay. The tip definitely helped the Titans on that play.

1st at the 36 (shotgun): Throws a 2 yard pass after quickly going through his progression, it's accurate and the receiver gets out of bounds as he receives the pass.

2nd and 8 at the 38 (shotgun): Goes through progression quickly, passes a 6 yarder to his receiver (3rd or 4th progression), in stride and accurate. Receiver has room to it to the 50.

1st at the 50 (shotgun): Throws a 17 yard pass over his receiver and out of reach. Went through his progression and didn't seem worried about pressure. (I was impressed with his unrattled nerves and his going through his progression quickly, especially since he's supposed to be a guy that is too impatient to do so, but the pass wasn't close.

2nd and 10 at the 50 (shotgun): He's patient in the pocket and doesn't scramble until he really needs to. Again, impressed with the patience. He ran out of bounds after a 6 yard gain.

3rd and 4 at the 44 (shotgun): Cardinals bring heavy blitz up the middle, he scrambles right but continues to look for his receivers when he could have tucked it and ran. He still attempted the pass, but it was off target. He could have easily taken off but continued to look for his receivers. Maybe it wasn't the right call, but I was impressed that he was intent on passing here.

4th and 4 at the 44 (shotgun): Again, heavy blitz, this time it doesn't look like he goes through his progression but locks onto his #1 and throws a 4 yard pass to him. It was complete, but the receiver had already made his cut and had to wait on it just slightly, he still made a big play, but it could have been the game winner if the pass had been made a tick before and he didn't have to slow down when catching it.

1st at the 31 (shotgun): looks like he checks down to #3 and throws a perfect 5 yarder to his TE who doesn't break stride as he goes out of bounds.

2nd and 5 at the 26 (shotgun): Goes through his checks, then a great pump fake and the defenders bite for a second, but the pass is way out of bounds.

3rd and 5 at the 26 (shotgun): Cardinals bring a blitz up the middle and he to his #2 with a great 5 yard pass (just slightly behind the receiver, but it didn't slow him down at all and he made a great play).

1st at the 9 (shotgun): It looks like he checked to #2 and there was some miscommunication on where the route was going. Incomplete, not sure who's fault it was.

2nd and goal at the 9 (shotgun): A little bit of chaos. He looks like he's going through his progression, sees a running lane and starts to scramble, but it closes quickly and so he stops after stepping up in the pocket, he looks for a receiver but gets sacked from behind for a loss of 1.

3rd and goal at the 10 (shotgun): He goes through his progression, throws a great pass just as the receiver is getting open and the receiver drops the pass. Perfect timing and pass. He saw the receiver making his move and placed it exactly where it had to be and the receiver would have had a TD or been tackled at the one had he made the catch. Great play by VY as a passer. I was actually probably more impressed with his patience on this one, waiting for his guy to make the move that got him open, and his timing, getting it to the receiver right as he's getting open.

4th and goal at the 10 (shotgun): This play is unbelievable. Young is VERY patient. He's a playmaker, a game winner, and he knows he might be able to do something with his legs, so the fact that he buys time but doesn't try and win the game on his own is admirable in itself, BUT the pass here is ******* unbelievable. He buys some time with his legs but never stops looking for his receivers, as he finally feels pressure from his right, begins to run left and throws a perfect pass in the opposite direction where only his receiver can catch it and to the only place his receiver would have been open. There was a guy in front of the receiver, behind the receiver, and another defender covering the guy headed right at the receiver and the receiver makes the catch. Don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic catch, but the pass, running left and throwing a 20 yard pass to the right with a right handed QB is pretty special.

Okay, so I've watched this drive a couple of times before and even when I began typing this post I was still a "NO WAY anyone that wants him here has lost their minds" guy, but after actually going through the set of plays, I see why lots of people want the Skins to sign him and I do see that he's progressed as a passer, but my only concerns are still that he's not much different from McNabb and that he's a headcase.

On that drive it looked like he improved drastically from the beginning of the drive to the end, which is really nice to see someone who doesn't crumble under the pressure (and I like McNabb, but he's has been accused of this) but gets better. He wasn't very accurate with passes over 8 yards from the LOS, which is the same issue we've had with McNabb (though the last pass almost made me cry because it was so beautiful).

Altogether, I'm really more conflicted now than I was previously. I'm still worried about the guy's maturity, emotional control, and his accuracy, but I'm not as concerned about his willingness to be coached up or execute a game plan (which is shown by his progressions during a situation where a LOT of athletes that are that gifted, Mike Vick is a perfect example, would have taken the game into their own hands, he only scrambled once).

I supported AH when he came and I got burned, I don't know about Young still, but I will probably be able to get excited if we sign him and overlook the very possible ticking time bomb. Hopefully the FO does the right thing, whatever that is since, and it works out in the best interest of the Skins, whether that means we get him and he's a stable guy for years and gets more accurate, or whether that means someone else signs him and we get to see him explode in their locker room. I don't know which, but if he could (as has been said a million times) get himself under control, he would be better than McNabb IMO.

HTTR.

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 03:51 PM ----------

Thanks for twisting what I said to fit your stance. :slap:

I thought that when you said that it was actually supportive of Young.

[SkinsTribeVA]

I posted this already but will again.

"In 2009, Chris Johnson played 9 games with Vince Young at QB (not including Week-17, we exclude for the skew of performance data that a Game-16/Week-17 stats can be around the league). The first 6 games of 2009, Johnson played with Kerry Collins at QB – then Young took over for the rest of the season. The difference between Chris Johnson’s time with Young vs. with Collins was remarkable.

15.8 carries per game with Collins, 25.2 carries per game with Young (59.5% more carries with Young)"

Ask yourself why did CJ's rush attempts per game increase 59.5% with VY playing QB? I believe its because Fisher didn't trust VY throwing the ball as much as he trusted the old Collins doing that. TK just posted that Shanahan values Fishers evaluation of QB's greatly. If he trusted VY throwing the ball then he would have had him throw it more then Collins but they shifted the offense with VY under center to a primarily rushing attack. This isn't done by accident imo and it doesn't speak well of what Fisher thought of VY the pass throwing QB.

I think this is a poor argument because it demonstrates very little causal connection.

I'll agree that most likely Chris Johnson's rush attempts went up because Fisher didn't trust VY (he didn't want to start him, so obviously he didn't trust him). However, that doesn't mean that having VY in the game didn't boost CJ's performance. Opposing teams could not slow down CJ for that entire 10-game stretch (something they've been much better at since then). It also doesn't mean that we can't put blame for that same team's earlier poor performance on the coach--if CJ was easily capable of putting up those type of numbers that season (and he had put up nearly 200 yards on the ground in week 2) then why wasn't he getting more touches regardless of who was at QB? If you remember, most commentators discarded CJ as a legit MVP candidate that season because of the team's earlier performance even while he was playing fairly well, while VY was more in the conversation.

This post isn't really an argument for or against VY as a player or Redskin, it's just an argument against the validity of that particular argument.

[addicted]

Thanks for twisting what I said to fit your stance. :slap:

Sorry you don't agree with my evaluation but I was going off of your "Shanny respects Fishers QB evaluations" story you gave us earlier today which I thinks interesting

Why do you think when Young was in that Johnsons rushing attempts went through the roof compared to what they were doing when Collins was in there? I'm sure someone who can evaluate QB's as well as Fisher would have had the better passer slinging that ball all over the field and not rushing as much eh? Or maybe not.

For that matter how do you expect us to handle Young when Fisher couldn't? When did Fisher ever have player problems like he's had with Young? We all knew before Shannahan came on board that he'd had a history of player personality issues and we've seen that first hand here already. One of my problems with this pick up is simply this. How can anyone reasonably expect that Young will be a model citizen if we sign him and not repeat what he's done in the past?

And my next question is why would you want him becoming the face of the Franchise with the history he has?

[jflow78]

We will not need to trade anything for him - he has a big roster bonus due right after the league year starts (whenever that will be) and will be released in all probability. In any case no one is picking up his existing deal, he will have to sign a "prove it" deal. Thats one of the saving graces of this if it happens - it will not involve us trading a pick or player for that matter.

I'd still rather trade for him, that way we can get rid of AH and McNabb and get a 2nd rounder. Even if we didn't trade for Young, I'd take a 2nd rounder for McNabb and AH. It would be a steal at this point, IMO.

[addicted]

Actually, Plummer was replaced for going camping instead of showing up for volunteer off season practices.

Wait what?

He was replaced when the team was 7-4 in the middle of the season after they had just lost two straight games. Mike wanted to go in another direction and handed the keys off to Cutler whom he just drafted. What in the heck is this about off season practices?

http://www.nfl.com/players/jakeplummer/profile?id=PLU243945

[jflow78]

Gruden and jaws commenting on young in the pocket. I meant to post this video above but whatever. There is alot of talent here and he is alot better in the pocket then when he came into the league.

I'm not breaking this one down, someone else can do it, but he was MUCH more accurate on this drive compared to the last two minutes with the Cards, and not just with short passes either. That long pass to Nate Washington was on the money, but Washington had hands issues in the other video, and like a dumb *** dropped it.

EDIT:

I thought he was a lot better on this video. No real inconsistencies, just very sharp accurate passes, whether in bootleg or the pocket, and good decisions and patience too.

Also, it was nice to see that he wasn't in shotgun the entire time. We've already had a QB that couldn't pass from under center. Not mentioning names.

I thought, Young was better in this video, than McNabb was at any point this past season.

[MartinC]

I'd still rather trade for him, that way we can get rid of AH and McNabb and get a 2nd rounder. Even if we didn't trade for Young, I'd take a 2nd rounder for McNabb and AH. It would be a steal at this point, IMO.

If we trade for Young we have to take his contract - thats not happening. There is also no way IMO we are getting anything close to a 2nd round pick for McNabb and we will be lucky to get a bag of footballs for Haynesworth.

[SkinsTribeVA]

Sorry you don't agree with my evaluation but I was going off of your "Shanny respects Fishers QB evaluations" story you gave us earlier today which I thinks interesting

Why do you think when Young was in that Johnsons rushing attempts went through the roof compared to what they were doing when Collins was in there? I'm sure someone who can evaluate QB's as well as Fisher would have had the better passer slinging that ball all over the field and not rushing as much eh? Or maybe not.

For that matter how do you expect us to handle Young when Fisher couldn't? When did Fisher ever have player problems like he's had with Young? We all knew before Shannahan came on board that he'd had a history of player personality issues and we've seen that first hand here already. One of my problems with this pick up is simply this. How can anyone reasonably expect that Young will be a model citizen if we sign him and not repeat what he's done in the past?

And my next question is why would you want him becoming the face of the Franchise with the history he has?

Who says we would instantly make him the face of the franchise? Straw man argument. We want to sign him and make him compete because he's young and talented-- but he's immature and thus must prove himself. If he earns the starting job through offseason competition or good mid-season performance, so be it.

[MartinC]

I'm not breaking this one down, someone else can do it, but he was MUCH more accurate on this drive than the last one, and not just with short passes either. That long pass to Nate Washington was on the money, but Washington had hands issues in the other video, and like a dumb *** dropped it.

Agree the second video was more impressive than the first - that first video against the Cardinals was impressive in its own way but it showed a lot of the things that worry me about Young as well. In the second video he was much more accurate and consistent.

[Lavarleap56]

X92nv3tVvkk

Vince young vs Redskins

[texasthunder]

QB A:

-Has finished 0 of his seasons starting in all 16 games

-8.33 wins per season when he started 10 or more games

-1:1 TD to INT ratio for his career

-6.8 yards per passing attempt for career

-75 QB rating

QB B:

-33% of his seasons were completed starting all 16 games

-Over 9 wins per season

-2:1 TD to INT ratio

-6.9 YPA

-85.7 QB rating

.

.

Now Kdawg, you are one of the more level headed posters on this board,

but you did skew the stats. They are accurate, but skewed.

The stat regarding games started is correct, but when you look at the whole picture, Mcnabb

only accomplished this stat 4 out of 12 years.

Cmon man- that not a fair comparison.

Actually the best comparison would have been their first 5 years:

QB rating: DM 77.6 vs VY 75.7

YDS Per Att= DM 6.1 vs VY 6.8

The td/int rate, and the games started are about the same.

Completion%= DM 56.2 vs VY 57.9

But the two biggest issues to me are:

Age= DM 34- VY 27

Thats seven years difference, heck that can be a career for some.

And then there is the contract:

DM- $17.6 million per yr, and a $10 million bonus

VY- $8.5 million per year and a $4.25 roster bonus

But smart money says we will get a much more agreeable contract then that.

[elkabong82]

addicted: Young averaged 25 pass attempts a game in '09, Collins 30. That's not a wide enough margin to justify the extra 10 carries a game for CJ as being purely a result of Fisher not trusting Young and having him throw less. Part of the extra carries could be that Young played better than Collins, and the team had more plays as a result.

Plus, coaches with young QBs leaning on an elite rush game is not uncommon. But, in 2009 when Collins averaged 30 passes a game and CJ close to 16 carries, Collins threw just 6 TDs in 7 games, but 8 INTs. The team was 0-6 in the first 6 games of the seaso when Collins started. When Young came in and CJ's carries also increased, the team only lost 2 games the rest of the season. So it's possible that regardless of QB Fisher was going to dial up the run plays anyways.

Also, Young has had a couple games of 3 or more total TDs, I agree though that the lack of TDs and yard benchmarks is alarming, but when his pass attempts per game are rarely 30+, and he's on a team with perhaps the best rusher in the NFL, those factors will pull the QB stats down. This is not meant to be a complete explanation/excusal of the lack of production w/ 3+ TD games and 300+ yard games.

I'm on the fence with Young. He has maturity issues and he certainly is not refined at his position. But he does have talent, and if he can win here, winning typically cures all. There are things I like about Young and things I don't. If we bring him in I expect it to be a modest contract thanks to Bruce, Young will have to compete for the job, and I'll root for Young if he becomes the starter and trust Shanny isn't trying to make another QB mistake.

I wouldn't mind seeing the differences between Fisher's offense and ours to see if we'll use Young differently, andhopefully more atuned to his skill set. In a Plummer type roll I think Young has the mobility and arm to potentially do well.

[Lavarleap56]

Agree the second video was more impressive than the first - that first video against the Cardinals was impressive in its own way but it showed a lot of the things that worry me about Young as well. In the second video he was much more accurate and consistent.

Posting what I can find from last season as he improved alot as a player.

[jflow78]

If we trade for Young we have to take his contract - thats not happening. There is also no way IMO we are getting anything close to a 2nd round pick for McNabb and we will be lucky to get a bag of footballs for Haynesworth.

Which is exactly why I said it would be a steal. I know it's not going to happen, but a guy can dream right?

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

So I know stats are not everything - its winning that counts and stats are for fantasy owners - but does whats below scream quality NFL QB?

Vince Young has a career high of just over 2,500 yards passing.

His career season high is 12 TDs (Grossman had 7 in 3 starts last season)

On his career he completes just over 57% of his passes.

I was also surprised that for a guy who is as good a runner as VY his career high is only just over 500 yards in a season and that was his rookie year.

I think what VY does really well is hand off to Chris Johnson and shout "stop 'em" to a good defense.

He broke the record for rushing as a QB is rookie year. He doesn't take off as much now, he stays in the pocket most of the time now. If you watch his film you would see that. If he does take off its only to get much needed first downs or because none of the receivers are open.

[KDawg]

Now Kdawg, you are one of the more level headed posters on this board,

but you did skew the stats. They are accurate, but skewed.

The stat regarding games started is correct, but when you look at the whole picture, Mcnabb

only accomplished this stat 4 out of 12 years.

Cmon man- that not a fair comparison.

I didn't skew anything. 33% of seasons completely played > 0%

[addicted]

I think this is a poor argument because it demonstrates very little causal connection.

I'll agree that most likely Chris Johnson's rush attempts went up because Fisher didn't trust VY (he didn't want to start him, so obviously he didn't trust him).

We agree on this. This was the year that they came off an 0-5 start and were desperate.

However, that doesn't mean that having VY in the game didn't boost CJ's performance.

Now you are making a poor arguement.

Your saying that his carries, not production increased almost 60% because of VY's performances?

Sorry don't buy that.

When you have as drastic a rise in carries like this it comes down to offensive philosophy more then anything. They went from a passing team to a rushing team. Doubt that had anything more to do with it then Fisher thinking he could win that way instead of relying on Youngs arm the way he tried to rely on Collins arm. It's not that CJ's rushing yards went up, the coaches call the plays and they rode CJ more with Young as the QB showing they liked that more then Young throwing the ball.

Opposing teams could not slow down CJ for that entire 10-game stretch (something they've been much better at since then). It also doesn't mean that we can't put blame for that same team's earlier poor performance on the coach--if CJ was easily capable of putting up those type of numbers that season (and he had put up nearly 200 yards on the ground in week 2) then why wasn't he getting more touches regardless of who was at QB? If you remember, most commentators discarded CJ as a legit MVP candidate that season because of the team's earlier performance even while he was playing fairly well, while VY was more in the conversation.

BecauseFisher wanted a balanced offense and thought that Collins was his best shot for the passing game. He beat out Young to start the year and Fisher threw the ball more then. When the bottom fell out and they were desperate at 0-5 he ditched the passing game and rode CJ not Youngs arm and benched Collins.

In fact in that span of 10 games we refer too all the time Young only threw the ball more then 200 yards in 4 of those games and actually had games of 89 passing yards, 116 passing yards, 125 passing yards, and 132 passing yards for the entire game during that span.

And some of you wonder why Im not believing the "he's a winner" argument

[MartinC]

Posting what I can find from last season as he improved alot as a player.

There is some good stuff in those videos as well - he shows more paitence than I have seen and goes through some progressions. The winning drive versus the Cards was not impressive to me from a pure passing point of view although the achievement and final throw where.

I'm not a fan as you can probably tell of the idea of Young as our QB but if Shanny decides he is the guy I will be right behind him cheering him on.

[addicted]

Who says we would instantly make him the face of the franchise?

Who believes that we would sign him over other teams who need QB's just to sit him on the bench to rot?

Straw man argument.

You just made one yourself

We want to sign him and make him compete because he's young and talented-- but he's immature and thus must prove himself. If he earns the starting job through offseason competition or good mid-season performance, so be it.

And if he doesn't then what is the point about going after this guy? If you don't think he's good enough to be your starter then forget him and bring in someone with less baggage.