The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'm in class (early Jewish history / Christian) right now and this theory came up...I have never heard of this before, but it sounds possible.. Apparently there was a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera who possibly raped Mary while he was stationed in Judea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera From Wiki: Judging from the text of the monument, Abdes Pantera was born in Sidonia, which is identified with Sidon in Phoenicia, and joined the Cohors I Sagittariorum (first cohort of archers). The meaning of his name Abdes is still disputed, although it is clearly related to the Aramaic `ebed, or "servant": some scholars believe that it means "servant of Isis", while James Tabor claims it means "servant of God", "indicating that Pantera was of Semitic or even Jewish background, whether native born, a convert, or from a family sympathetic to Judaism".[1] Pantera is the Latin name for panther. He probably obtained the Roman names Tiberius Iulius when receiving Roman citizenship after completing 25 years of service during the reign of emperor Tiberius between 19 and 37. The Cohors I Sagittariorum was stationed in Iudaea until 9, and in Bingen between 40 and 70. He served 40 years, was probably the standard bearer (signifer) of his cohort and was buried at the age of 62 in Germania Superior. The whole virgin birth to me was always questionable...it doesnt matter to me whether or not his birth was a miracle because of the great things he did - I think considering the way epics are told, they had to create a story behind Jesus to make him appear chosen by God (virgin birth, the 3 Kings, Herod trying to kill baby Jesus), Like Abraham and Muhammad, its possible Jesus was just a man that was chosen by God. I'm hoping techboy can come in here and explain things like he always does ------------------------- http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1815838&page=2 "I'm ready to let the average reader know what we scholars actually discuss. And if it's shocking, it's shocking. You don't have to accept it. Jesus had a father."Did that mean Tabor does not believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus? "I don't," he said. "I think all humans have a human father." Tabor, who studied first- and second-century Rabbinic and Greek texts, suggests a possible name for the human father of Jesus. "They begin to call Jesus, 'bar Pantera,' son of Pantera," Tabor said. "And we even have an early Greek source. He's a philosopher named Kelsus, who seems to know a bit more about it. He says that Jesus was the son of a man named Pantera, who either was or became a Roman soldier." The tombstone of Pantera is in Germany, says Tabor. "Pantera is from Palestine. And he dates 62 years old when he dies ... He's on the frontier in Germany. And if you figure his date and where he was ... he's a teenager. You know, a young man maybe 19 or 20 at the time Mary becomes pregnant," Tabor said. The suggestion that Pantera may have been the father of Jesus has been proposed before, however. "It's not some new discovery," said Dr. Donald Carson, an expert in New Testament history from Trinity University in Illinois. "It's presented in the book as this great find that has been suppressed ... But it's been discussed and carefully weighed by centuries of scholars. There is nothing new here except the association of names that go back, at the end of the day, to reports of the enemies of Christianity from the second century. Pantera was an incredibly popular name at the time of Christ." Twin Messiahs? Carson argues that Tabor's views are shaped by his own materialistic philosophy, which does not allow for any supernatural or extraordinary elements -- such as a Virgin Birth. "What Dr. Tabor has done is assumed that the whole thing cannot be," Carson said. "It is a sham and therefore the evidence has to be jiggered, it has to be selectively appealed to in order to take away the evidence of God actually doing something in space, time, history. At that point, no amount of evidence will ever convince him unless he's open to the possibility that Dr. Tabor himself is wrong ... and that God has disclosed himself in space, time and history through a man. Namely, Jesus of Nazareth." If Tabor's book is controversial on the birth of Jesus, it also raises questions about Jesus' early ministry. Tabor suggests there were two messiahs, not one. click the link for more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You are indeed one brave little toaster oven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 You are indeed one brave little toaster oven. I like the fact we can have theological discussions involving Christianity that dont involve a fatwa being issued and people being called heretics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I don't know about Jesus, but the kid next door was. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulane Skins Fan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I like the fact we can have theological discussions involving Christianity that dont involve a fatwa being issued and people being called heretics Only a heretic would start such a thread. I'm gonna issue a fatwa on you. (I don't know what a fatwa is). Seriously, on its face, I don't think this theory can be any more proven than the religious belief can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Only a heretic would start such a thread. I'm gonna issue a fatwa on you. (I don't know what a fatwa is). Seriously, on its face, I don't think this theory can be any more proven than the religious belief can. A fatwā (Arabic: فتوى; plural fatāwā Arabic: فتاوى) in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar. In Sunni Islam any fatwā is non-binding, whereas in Shia Islam it could be considered by an individual as binding, depending on his or her relation to the scholar. The person who issues a fatwā is called, in that respect, a Mufti, i.e. an issuer of fatwa, from the verb أَفْتَى 'aftā = "he gave a formal legal opinion on". This is not necessarily a formal position since most Muslims argue that anyone trained in Islamic law may give an opinion (fatwā) on its teachings. If a fatwā does not break new ground, then it is simply called a ruling - it basically is calling for the death of the heretic for a blasphemous statement against the religion Gaddafi has a fatwa issued against him at the moment...Salmon Rushdie is also another person famously having a fatwa issued against him for his book he wrote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I like the fact we can have theological discussions involving Christianity that dont involve a fatwa being issued and people being called heretics that is indeed a great thing about our country. and a great thing that our country basically INVENTED and then brought to the rest of the world. I hope that those countries that don't yet have this wonderful thing get it soon, and that we continue to resist the nutbags that would move this country back in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Well that probably wins the award for most blasphemous thing I'll hear all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Fried Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Like Abraham and Muhammad, its possible Jesus was just a man that was chosen by God. Then Jesus would not have been the Son of God. He would have basically been a random person chosen by God as a sort of prophet. Christianity is not possible without Jesus being God. He had to be God in order to die for the sins of humanity. EDIT: I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. This topic is ridiculous because you can't prove anything 100%. It's faith, but not blind faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 While extremely blasphemous, I'm not gonna call for anyone's head. That's one person's opinion and I'm sure there is rational thought behind it. Having said that, this is probably one of those discussions where I shouldn't participate since I probably wouldn't be able to keep my cool. ---------- Post added February-24th-2011 at 11:02 AM ---------- Then Jesus would not have been the Son of God. He would have basically been a random person chosen by God as a sort of prophet. Christianity is not possible without Jesus being God. He had to be God in order to die for the sins of humanity.EDIT: I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. This topic is ridiculous because you can't prove anything 100%. It's faith, but not blind faith. This is basically my stance. Christianity revolves around the idea that Jesus Christ is the son of God, born of a virgin, lived a life free from sin, died, and rose from the dead. It's a belief based on faith (since none of us were around to say that's true or not); but this is also highly suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Well, now don't chop my head off here.. but from the Atheist's point of view it's entirely possible / probable. To us, the notion of a divine conception is ludicrous, and sounds more like a story concocted by an unfaithful partner. If her lover was Roman, all the more reason to come up with a cover story. Now, i don't know the laws of the time.. (techboy?).. but if she was unfaithful, could that have resulted in a death sentence? I'm sure whatever her fate would be for infidelity certainly would not be pleasant, and would be a prime motive to lie. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Then Jesus would not have been the Son of God. He would have basically been a random person chosen by God as a sort of prophet. Christianity is not possible without Jesus being God. He had to be God in order to die for the sins of humanity.EDIT: I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. This topic is ridiculous because you can't prove anything 100%. It's faith, but not blind faith. Why argue with me? Its just a theory that was discussed in my class and I thought it was something worthy of discussing on ES :whoknows: I'm Christian, but like everyone - I have questions. The best way to develop a better understanding of your religion is to ask questions, so I dont see the harm in discussing something like this even though people consider it blasphemous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I completely understand that your curious for answers regarding our Lord (I am as well), but...I don't know about this one BLTO. I mean, this is pretty much the cornerstone of the faith, you know? If Jesus isn't who I (or more than a billion other people) think he is, then yes, I'm sure it's extremely plausible; but if we're going to accept the idea that he's the Son of the most high God, then this is a real stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Why argue with me? Its just a theory that was discussed in my class and I thought it was something worthy of discussing on ES :whoknows:I'm Christian, but like everyone - I have questions. The best way to develop a better understanding of your religion is to ask questions, so I dont see the harm in discussing something like this even though people consider it blasphemous Again, being a non-believer, take this for what it's worth. I always felt that if God did not want you to question, he would not have made us so smart and inquisitive. As you say, questioning leads to understanding. It seems though that in terms of religion, questions are discouraged by this 'blasphemy" business. I can think of a lot of things that would be terribly blasphemous,,, but honest questions would not be one of them. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It makes me think of all the stories of Greek mythology where Zeus would disguise himself as a mortal and seduce or rape a beauty. This Roman soldier theory is unprovable for many reasons. It could be true and Mary's pregnancy could have any other explanations, but depending on if you want to take a Helenistic view of it... it could be that whoever put Mary with child was acting as God's vessel and like Zeus, the mortal was only God in disguise. I don't know if that thought is repulsive to Christians or romantic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 i'm a christian too. nothing wrong with discussion. i think its good to look at religions (your own included) critically. people dont do that enough, imo. techboy could probably clue us in to the probability or lack thereof about this theory, but, in the end, its likely not something that you could ever prove.its a matter of faith. and/or personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 i'm a christian too. nothing wrong with discussion. i think its good to look at religions (your own included) critically. people dont do that enough, imo. techboy could probably clue us in to the probability or lack thereof about this theory, but, in the end, its likely not something that you could ever prove.its a matter of faith. and/or personal preference. Agreed. Faith is called faith for a reason. None of us will ever really KNOW if there is a God or not. I think everything, including atheism, requires a degree of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homercles82 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is a plausible explanation if you don't believe in the miracle of Jesus, and as a Christian, I can understand where the need for the knowledge comes despite not believing in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Interesting idea, he had to come from somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sucks for God, he had to pay all that child support for nothing. I bet he wishes he made Man invent DNA paternity testing a couple thousand years earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Agreed. Faith is called faith for a reason. None of us will ever really KNOW if there is a God or not. I think everything, including atheism, requires a degree of faith. I think this is a misconception held of most atheists. Every atheist I know rejects the concept of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homercles82 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think this is a misconception held of most atheists. Every atheist I know rejects the concept of faith. Maybe the concept of faith as religious people use it, but arguing that would be splitting hairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 It makes me think of all the stories of Greek mythology where Zeus would disguise himself as a mortal and seduce or rape a beauty. This Roman soldier theory is unprovable for many reasons. It could be true and Mary's pregnancy could have any other explanations, but depending on if you want to take a Helenistic view of it... it could be that whoever put Mary with child was acting as God's vessel and like Zeus, the mortal was only God in disguise. I don't know if that thought is repulsive to Christians or romantic? Why couldnt the child be conceived through divine intervention? God chose the soldier to father the Chosen One? He could still technically be called the Son of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Some believe he was fathered by an ancient relative of Shawn Kemp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sucks for God, he had to pay all that child support for nothing. I bet he wishes he made Man invent DNA paternity testing a couple thousand years earlier. I just had a thought of God on the Maury Povich show and it made me laugh. Sorry, Lord. Moment of weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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