Bang Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 we should NOT intervene. These folks all over the region have spent the better part of the last fifty years telling us how much they hate our intervening, so listen to them. No intervention. what plays out plays out. Maybe that makes me callous or cold, but I don't so easily forget how many of these people have wanted Death To America over my entire lifetime. It's not a matter of spite of vengeance, but in the past there was no good deed left unpunished, and I see no reason to do it again and open ourselves up for more of the same when they get restless again. We do not need to prove our place in their eyes. In fact it's vice versa. Let them make their own way and we can forge our alliances after the dust settles. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 we do NOT intervene.These folks have spent the better part of the last fifty years telling us how much they hate our intervening, so listen to them. No intervention. what plays out plays out. Maybe that makes me callous or cold, but I don't so easily forget how many of these people have wanted Death To America over my entire lifetime. It's not a matter of spite of vengeance, but in the past there was no good deed left unpunished, and I see no reason to do it again and open ourselves up for more of the same when they get restless again. We do not need to prove our place in their eyes. In fact it's vice versa. Let them make their own way. ~Bang And then in the future, we get accused of helping install radical regimes in those countries, by doing nothing. Like some idiots still say about Afghanistan. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 And then in the future, we get accused of helping install radical regimes in those countries, by doing nothing. Like some idiots still say about Afghanistan. LOL Pretty much how it's been throughout my lifetime it seems. We've been damned if we do and damned if we don't in that region since I can remember. Whenever something bad happens there's always the cries for American intervention or assistance. So we do, and after it's all said and done we get to hear about how awful we are and how much they don't want us intervening. So give them the freedom to handle it on their own. If the new governments want to create good relations, they and we can make the diplomatic gestures after they've established themselves. Treat them as equals on the world stage. I think that is the best we can do. We don't need to be their dad. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Pretty much how it's been throughout my lifetime it seems. We've been damned if we do and damned if we don't in that region since I can remember.Whenever something bad happens there's always the cries for American intervention or assistance. So we do, and after it's all said and done we get to hear about how awful we are and how much they don't want us intervening. So give them the freedom to handle it on their own. If the new governments want to create good relations, they and we can make the diplomatic gestures after they've established themselves. Treat them as equals on the world stage. I think that is the best we can do. We don't need to be their dad. ~Bang This is my general opinion on this matter. When revolution is occurring elsewhere, let it happen and don't intervene. It's too much of a gamble and the upsides are minimal. Even if we are on the right side of the revolution, we could still be on the wrong side of history if the leader of that revolt becomes a dictator. This is a matter between Libyans and their leader. This has nothing to do with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejaydana Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yeah, I don't think Libya has nearly the amount of westernization that Egypt does. In fact, I find myself wondering, in my ignorance: How similar are the Libyan and Egyptian people? Would they be better off, combined? Quadafi has, very deliberately, fostered a country where tribes rule so the divisions are quick to present themselves in that country. Consequently the country can fall into civil war very easily. If he steps down it's while in a pine box. He's as obstinate (and compassionate) as Saddam Hussien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Pretty much how it's been throughout my lifetime it seems. We've been damned if we do and damned if we don't in that region since I can remember.Whenever something bad happens there's always the cries for American intervention or assistance. So we do, and after it's all said and done we get to hear about how awful we are and how much they don't want us intervening. So give them the freedom to handle it on their own. If the new governments want to create good relations, they and we can make the diplomatic gestures after they've established themselves. Treat them as equals on the world stage. I think that is the best we can do. We don't need to be their dad. ~Bang Pretty much agree here. Much of what we're seeing accross the Middle East is the benefits of technology, and finally the inability of the ruling parties to shut off information. It's just not possilbe anymore. It's easy to keep an uninformed populace subjegated. Much more difficult an informed populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I assume everyone's heard seen the news from Gaddafi's speech and some of the news from the other things going on in Libya today. Gaddafi has promised to purify his country and wipe out every last protester in Libya house by house. His forces have been butchering people in Tripoli and are reportedly moving towards other villages intent on taking them back. I can't believe everyone is saying we should stay out of this because they might resent us later. The international community needs to get off their collective ass and do something to help people in Libya. Whether it's calling for him to resign, sending aid, food, or helping logistically, or to stop the airstrikes somehow, I don't know, but to just sit back and watch the country be destroyed by a madman is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The international community needs to get off their collective ass and do something to help people in Libya. Whether it's calling for him to resign, sending aid, food, or helping logistically, or to stop the airstrikes somehow, I don't know, but to just sit back and watch the country be destroyed by a madman is ludicrous. I agree...I hate how it is always the US that has to get involved...why cant China or Russia get off it's ass and do something for once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Qadafi might be the most bat**** insane dictator since Caligula. I think the UN needs to step up. But what's the chances of that? The Arab League has already banned Libya. Maybe they can do more? I really think the US should stay out of it though. At least not go solo on this. What happens when we wipe out Qadafi and Libya is a) taken over by religious extremists, fights a civil war for the next 10 years or c) a combination of the two? We'll be blamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I agree...I hate how it is always the US that has to get involved...why cant China or Russia get off it's ass and do something for once? Well let's be honest, they aren't going to at least without some serious prodding, because they don't care and because they don't want to encourage anyone at home to protest. (they also have a lot of longstanding major business deals with some of the slimier places out there) There are plenty of other countries however that can do something to help that I would have expected to offer more than empty words so far. ---------- Post added February-22nd-2011 at 05:51 PM ---------- Qadafi might be the most bat**** insane dictator since Caligula.I think the UN needs to step up. But what's the chances of that? The Arab League has already banned Libya. Maybe they can do more? I really think the US should stay out of it though. At least not go solo on this. What happens when we wipe out Qadafi and Libya is a) taken over by religious extremists, fights a civil war for the next 10 years or c) a combination of the two? We'll be blamed. I don't think anyone wants the US to singlehandedly invade Libya or anything like that...although I have seen Libyans in Tripoli even calling for Nato peace keepers. Personally, I'd at least like to see us do more than give some weak statements of complaint however. I think the first thing we and other countries need to do is talk to the people in charge on the ground among the opposition and find out what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What if we got together a coalition of the willing and.....eh,never mind,let's pass a UN resolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I meant more be the face of/driving force behind any intervention. I'm not sure that's possible if we're publically involved in even the slightest. Now if behind the scenes we can push the Arab League or African Union to step in, then yeah, let them do it. But keep the US out of it completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 I would be all for enforcing a no-fly zone to prevent bombing of civilians, but beyond that, no intervention. Zoony is right - Libya is going to turn into chaos. It is a fragmentary society with tribal divisions like Afghanistan, but even less of a national heritage to tie it together. However things unfold will be disastrous, and unless you want a 3rd major occupation force, don't kid yourselves that that there is some middle ground where we can make everyone get along without a decade or more of occupation and several thousand casualties. Let's remember what happened the last time we intervened in a former Italian colony in North Africa to prevent a humanitarian crisis caused by tribal conflict.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 So a no fly zone to prevent bombings but nothing to stop tanks or artillery? What's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 http://blogs.aljazeera.net/africa/2011/02/22/live-blog-libya-feb-23 2:08pm A contact with friends and family in Libya has set up a YouTube channel to pass on videos from the troubled country. One is particularly interesting, because it appears to show clear footage of a Chinook transport helicopter flying over what we've been told is Jomhouriya Street in Tripoli. Separate witnesses have reported that armed troops, possible the "mercenaries," have been moving about the capital using such helicopters. 1:55pm The European reaction to Libya begins to get stronger: Following on the French president's call for EU sanctions, UK prime minister David Cameron has said he wants to see a full UN security council resolution regarding the bloody violence in Libya, the Reuters news agency reports. 1:25pm The Wall Street Journal newspaper has weighed in on Libya with a fiery editorial that argues the West should be asserting itself more forcefully to end Gaddafi's 42-year reign, beginning by offering humanitarian aid to protesters and enforcing a no-fly zone in the country and extending to threatening to bomb Libyan airfields and arming the protesters. The Wallstreet Journal goes farther than I have, lol. Although I have dreamily wondered if there's any possibility of an international navy fleet showing up outside Tripoli to warn Gaddafi and folks to surrender to the people. --------- Al Jazeera has shown some live footage from Tobruk to the east of Benghazi, and near the Egyptian border. Misrata near Tripoli seems to have been taken by the protesters, but is now in the midst of many skirmishes with Gaddafi mercanaries and diehards who are trying to go house by house and wipe out the protesters as he has told them to. There are reports now that Gaddafi has decided to burn a lot of his oil fields. Not sure as to the credibikilitty of these specific reports. A female Al Jazeeran reporter is talking about how calm it is in Bhengazi where she is and in al Bayda as well. http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ So far a ton of international refugees have fled the country and many more are stranded there and starving. Libyans have fled to Egpyt to send in videos and such and gone back into Libya. The Italian foreign minister says he estimates that around 1,000 are dead in Libya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I like the idea of group (European + US) bombing their military airports so they cant bomb their own citizens...air raids arent too involved. plus, whenever they finally get a new leader, hopefully he will be pro-West and we can supply him with American planes since we destroyed what they had previously in the air raids :pfft: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Let Europe handle it. So much of Gaddahfi's legitimacy among the Libyan people in the past came from him defying the U.S. government and the U.S. oil companies. It wasn't happenstance that his address to the nation came from the bombed out ruins of his palace - it was a visual reminder to his dwindling supporters that he stood up to the Great Satan and survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I find myself agreeing with Gacolb and Bang. For ONCE can we just mind our own business. We have our own issues to fix before we worry about other people, and their issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Qadafi might be the most bat**** insane dictator since Caligula. Um... just gonna go out on a limb here, but in between the two there was this German guy with a little mustache... and this Russian guy with a big mustache.... ;pfft; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 the only way Gaddafi will leave Libya is in a pine box. It appears Gaddafi and his goons already suspect the US and Israel for inciting the protests: A government spokesman said U.S. and Israeli intelligence operatives were behind the unrest. "We will get rid of them, in collaboration with our people in the eastern province," he said. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/23/libya.protests/index.html?hpt=T1 So, going in there may be a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 So, am I being over-the-top in hoping that when they do put a bullet in Qadaffy's head, it's caught on video? ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECU-ALUM Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hey Qadafi if you want o be a martyr there are several thousand of your fellow Libyans who would be all too happy to help you reach that goal. Let them help you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 So, am I being over-the-top in hoping that when they do put a bullet in Qadaffy's head, it's caught on video?~Bang CoughCeaucescuCough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 CoughCeaucescuCough. When Ceaucescu was executed, there were so many Romanians eager to pull the trigger they had to hold a lottery to win a spot on the firing squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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