Redstate: Mexico is America's Next Afghanistan

[elkabong82]

Legalize pot and pass immigration reform, and many of the problems along the border are greatly reduced, IMO.

The biggest problem in Mexico is the poverty. You raise the poverty level to one where most can survive and you eliminate a good chunk of people who are either corrupt or are permissive of corruption because they don't care and are looking out for themselves. If the US were allowed to intervene on a small level, one where they simply play matchmaker between Mexico's resources and viable suitors, I think that could be a positive step in the right direction. Mexico's abundance of silver alone should have them better off than they are, if those resources were utilized and sold effectively.

[Destino]

laughable. Corruption is what has allowed the cartels to become as powerful as they are. The Mexican government over the years owns 100% of the blame. Maybe it is just the human condition.

What's your point? Corruption absolutely allowed the cartels to become powerful. They operate via corruption and with the money they command corruption isn't hard.

BTW - The US isn't exactly clean on corruption in the drug war. You don't actually think they smuggle literal tons of material into the US without inside help do you? They corrupt companies, officials, and law enforcement. The US is the selling point not the home base so you don't get the same type of corruption. I wouldn't doubt for a minute they've bought out more than few officials all over the US though.

[Cept One]

Apparently you haven't been watching the news.

lol do a little research on this issue and you will see that a very very small number of guns found at Mexican crimes scenes can be traced... something like 11% if i recall correctly were submitted to the US for tracing. Yes the majority of the firearms sent to the US for tracing originated in the US... this should come as no surprise since the Mexican Gov't is the one who decides which firearms to submit in the first place. Where did the other 89% come from? Not to mention the fact that the cartels are arming themselves with military grade weaponry like grenades and rocket launchers

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The enhanced weaponry represents a wide sampling from the international arms bazaar, with grenades and launchers produced by U.S., South Korean, Israeli, Spanish or former Soviet bloc manufacturers. Many had been sold legally to governments, including Mexico's, and then were diverted onto the black market. Some may be sold directly to the traffickers by corrupt elements of national armies, authorities and experts say.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

[Destino]

The blame game is fun. The US did it! No the Mexican government did it!

Ok now what?

[Mickalino]

The blame game is fun. The US did it! No the Mexican government did it!

Ok now what?

Now, we get more specific : The U.S. DEMOCRATS did it

[rocazares]

This is true but defeatism won't help either. Cartels can be defeated but the will and the bloodshed needed to do so is significant.

The will of 80% of mexicans citizens is buried. And I talk about citizens because the goverment dont' do a *****.

The military forces are alone and always get ambushed because they get betrayed every single day.

The cartels get the strongest arsenal in Mexico, military's weapons seems like toys.

All the good guys doesnt have the necessary equipment.

Do I have the will to enlist in a fair major civil war against the cartels if I can get the chance? YES.

That is not a betrayal of Mexico. If you're home is infested with rats you put out some traps... but when it doesn't work you call for outside help. The alternative is accepting the vermin.

Indeed.

Every once in a while civilians groups want to do something, inmediately they got terrorized. And no one said or do something at the higher levels.

Bribes.

I don't see it like an invasion (even if the US reclaim something), I see it like helping to cut of disease, something like you said Des.

But the decisions makers of this "nation" will not be happy with this idea. Why? because that way they lose the golden goose, the big fat golden goose.

[RansomthePasserby]

The will of 80% of mexicans citizens is buried. And I talk about citizens because the goverment dont' do a *****.

Man, reading your posts rocazares makes me wish we could just go in and take out those cartels tomorrow...

[Cept One]

Man, reading your posts rocazares makes me wish we could just go in and take out those cartels tomorrow...

+1

[shk75]

I think unfortunately this goes to the policies of the drug war and what an utter disaster it has proven to be. I mean we started in Colombia, moved to Bolivia, now Mexico, it could next go to the Dominican Republic or other countries in the region. It saddens me to see what is going on with Mexico but I think getting involved will not solve the root of this problem which are ineffective policies that have been so ingrained into our society that they have become almost impossible to change.

[rocazares]

Man, reading your posts rocazares makes me wish we could just go in and take out those cartels tomorrow...

I do prefer to take out the politicians.

The politicians just want to eliminate the cartels, because they want the cartel's power and money.

When this alliance ends (goverment/cartels), the fun will start.

Some cartel's legs helps the starving (we have a lot of people starving has you can imagine), but that doesnt make him good persons at all.

[Fergasun]

Its funny this comes from Redstate.com. Neo-con anyone?

Rather than use our energy to fight a war, I prefer we use the energy to seal off the border.

[Destino]

Its funny this comes from Redstate.com. Neo-con anyone?

Rather than use our energy to fight a war, I prefer we use the energy to seal off the border.

Your going to seal a border between drug cartels and thier customers? With what? Pixie dust?

[Fergasun]

I'm just laughing at the solution. The solution is to invade Mexico?

[Hubbs]

Its funny this comes from Redstate.com. Neo-con anyone?

Rather than use our energy to fight a war, I prefer we use the energy to seal off the border.

I don't see it like an invasion (even if the US reclaim something), I see it like helping to cut of disease, something like you said Des.

But the decisions makers of this "nation" will not be happy with this idea. Why? because that way they lose the golden goose, the big fat golden goose.

There's no sealing, and there's no killing of the golden goose via force of arms. As long as the ability to become ludicrously rich is there, the cartels will find a way to get drugs into this country. If you build a wall, the cartels will find a way. If you line the border with various sensors, the cartels will find a way. If you station troops all along a border that's more than 2,000 miles long, the cartels will find a way.

You're not going to win this battle with force. The cartels will find a way around whatever your plan is. Always.

Your going to seal a border between drug cartels and thier customers? With what? Pixie dust?

We have a winner.

I think unfortunately this goes to the policies of the drug war and what an utter disaster it has proven to be. I mean we started in Colombia, moved to Bolivia, now Mexico, it could next go to the Dominican Republic or other countries in the region. It saddens me to see what is going on with Mexico but I think getting involved will not solve the root of this problem which are ineffective policies that have been so ingrained into our society that they have become almost impossible to change.

That's how it works.

I'm just laughing at the solution. The solution is to invade Mexico?

You're laughing because that's not a solution. (Odds are that we'll try it anyway if push comes to shove, losing countless American soldiers in the process.)

[Fergasun]

I guess the question is then, "how to avoid becoming collateral damage in the emerging drug war?".

I mean in some way, the cartels are incentive-ized not to become too intrusive into the daily lives of non-drug-using or drug-dealing Americans, because it would create a backlash. On the other side, they are incentive-ized to stretch their power and reach into other enterprises in the name of profit.

[Hubbs]

I guess the question is then, "how to avoid becoming collateral damage in the emerging drug war?".

I mean in some way, the cartels are incentive-ized not to become too intrusive into the daily lives of non-drug-using or drug-dealing Americans, because it would create a backlash. On the other side, they are incentive-ized to stretch their power and reach into other enterprises in the name of profit.

Easy. Eliminate the cause of the drug war.

We won't do it, though. Even though it's easy, even though it'll save you and me money, and even though other countries like Portugal show that the boogeymen that come with legalization are overblown to an absurd degree. Instead, we'll double down on the efforts we already know don't work. U-S-A! U-S-A!

[Destino]

Hubbs what you're asking for is never going to happen. Wide scale drug legalization will not occur at any point in the near future because many of the drugs in question are simply too dangerous to warrant legal status. Decriminalization may HELP drug cartels that have literally set up shop on our borders. Marijuana can certainly be legalized at some point with limited societal impact but I don't think slave creating drugs like heroin, meth, and crack (which is coke) will ever be up for the legalization discussion. Plus remember these guys don't just smuggle feel good pills, they smuggle people and anything else the black market needs to move that pays enough to justify the risk.

These organizations have to be dismantled. In order to see what is necessary first you have to view them properly and stop pretending they are a small threat. The Taliban took down a tribal nation with a great deal of help from the cold war. The Cartels battled a much more formidable modern state in Columbia to a draw despite US help and they are doing it again with an even stronger state in Mexico. Two modern nation states being almost entirely subverted on the US side of the world. Meanwhile despite the US's best effort, and amazing amounts of money, drugs are readily available in the US to anyone that wants them. Bolivia has caved to the cartels as well and that moron President of theirs sleeps at night telling himself he has them under control.

How many states have to fall before it's time to recognize the growing threat on our side of the planet?

[Koolblue13]

Her0in has n0t bec0me less available and we have m0st 0f 0ur tr00ps in the c0untry it c0mes fr0m. That appr0ach fails.

[Destino]

Her0in has n0t bec0me less available and we have m0st 0f 0ur tr00ps in the c0untry it c0mes fr0m. That appr0ach fails.

You're assuming our troops are stopping heroin production. Reports on the matter state that not only is this not the case but that NATO troops are providing security for certain poppy fields in friendly regions.

[boobiemiles]

this analogy makesd sense. You can't win the war in Afghanistan, and you won't win the war on drugs either.

[zoony]

I hear firsthand accounts (the kind, truthfully, I shouldn't be hearing) about the Mexican Drug Cartels and the way they do business. They are absolutely ruthless. They make the mafia look boy scouts. The human trafficking and recruitment of "soldiers" is probably the most sad.

One thing that nobody is talking about is the pending drug war here in the US. We're already starting to see it. In many cities the Mexicans control all of the supply but none of the distribution. That is starting to change, where Mexicans are starting to distribute as well. Think this is going to go over well with our street gangs? It is going to be ugly... and when this starts occuring on a large scale (and it will), thats when the US will most likely act.

[#98QBKiller]

IDK, but there have been 29k people killed in the Mexican Drug War since 2006 so something has to happen.

[zoony]

IDK, but there have been 29k people killed in the Mexican Drug War since 2006 so something has to happen.

I think at some point, the killing will stop. Maybe this is one we let them work out on their own.

It's funny though to see so many people blaming the US Population. I guess we should ammend our drug laws to put users in jail for 20 years and give dealers 6 months. After all, it's the users fault.

Same thing with weapons. Any company who produces a weapon will be fined every time it is used in the perpetration of a crime. Person who does the shooting gets a few months. After all, they're the helpless victim.

US=Bad

Mexico=Noble and Good. Not their fault.

[Destino]

I think at some point, the killing will stop. Maybe this is one we let them work out on their own.

It's funny though to see so many people blaming the US Population. I guess we should ammend our drug laws to put users in jail for 20 years and give dealers 6 months. After all, it's the users fault.

Same thing with weapons. Any company who produces a weapon will be fined every time it is used in the perpetration of a crime. Person who does the shooting gets a few months. After all, they're the helpless victim.

US=Bad

Mexico=Noble and Good. Not their fault.

Mexico and the US share blame though Mexico gets 99.99% of it when it comes to what is going on in their own country. Having said that you can't discount the fact that the US is the customer base. This isn't the cold war where the government funded a bad group. This time it's Americans themselves that are fund source. We can blame the government all day but the bottom line is irresponsible selfish behavior by Americans has played a major role in this.

Being that it doesn't fall in line with "American exceptionalism" I doubt that take will get much play.

[zoony]

Mexico and the US share blame though Mexico gets 99.99% of it when it comes to what is going on in their own country. Having said that you can't discount the fact that the US is the customer base. This isn't the cold war where the government funded a bad group. This time it's Americans themselves that are fund source. We can blame the government all day but the bottom line is irresponsible selfish behavior by Americans has played a major role in this.

Being that it doesn't fall in line with "American exceptionalism" I doubt that take will get much play.

The question we should be asking is, are we at fault enough to send our boys and girls down to the slaughter. I say no. Last thing we need right now is another war we can't win in a country that doesn't want us there fighting a group of insurgents that you cannot tell apart from the locals.

Like I said, when the violence erupts on this side of the border, that's probably when we'll get in line.

I'm not absolving the US of blame. I think your 99% is about right . I cringe, however, when I read how we're at fault because we are a consumer. When you extrapolate that logic, it doesn't hold up.

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