Redstate: Mexico is America's Next Afghanistan

[Hubbs]

Figured this was radical enough to deserve its own thread apart from the "Evolution of Mexico" thread:

With the exception of, perhaps, Texas governor Rick Perry, no public official wants to publicly admit an obvious fact: The United States of America will likely be forced to invade Mexico. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. The question then becomes: What to do with Mexico after we invade it and wipe out the drug cartels (as much as can be). Does the United States merely return Mexico to a nation state of corrupt politicians, failed economic policies, and lawlessness, or do we annex Mexico and turn it into the 51st state?

For many of us, there is a certain false security in believing that, since most of America’s streets are not filled with the murder and mayhem that is going on just South of our borders, we have nothing to worry about. The feeling that most Americans likely have is: Well, it’s their problem, not ours. However, that illusion of security is quickly being eroded with the stories of American police officers being threatened by Mexican drug cartels, of kidnappings and drug murders in Arizona and Texas, of control of certain parts of Arizona and forays into New Mexico and Colorado by drug cartels, of teenagers being turned into hitmen, and American tourists being kidnapped or killed while on vacation in Mexico.

Mexico, with its kidnappings and more than 28,000 murders in the last four years alone, is being terrorized. Now, instead of economic refugees coming across our borders in search of jobs and income, humanitarian refugees are fleeing Mexico in order to stay alive. However, despite all of that, if one thought that only certain parts of Mexico are under the control of the cartels, that illusion was shattered on Tuesday when this map (see upper right) was presented on a heart-breaking post on RedState that shows that almost all of Mexico has been taken over by drug cartels.

The article is obviously written to sound over-the-top in order to get attention, but I'm honestly not sure how far off it is when it comes to military action. I've wondered about how bad things would have to get in Mexico for real American intervention, and while I think there's still a pretty long way to go before it's even considered a serious possibility, I also think we're moving in that direction. The Mexican government is losing control of its own country, and I honestly don't think it'll be able to regain control by itself. Calling an intervention an "invasion" is hyperbole, as the Mexican government would probably be asking for help by the time we were actually getting ready to send in our own soldiers, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see American troops in Mexico within a few years.

[rocazares]

Figured this was radical enough to deserve its own thread apart from the "Evolution of Mexico" thread:

We can give you CLEAN WATER AND A LOT OIL.

Just send the toughest mofos to decimate the cartels and a big of course, the thieves with tuxedos called: politicians.

[shk75]

Yes because we all know how well US involvement in the Americas has been historically....:doh:

[Hubbs]

Yes because we all know how well US involvement in the Americas has been historically....:doh:

Well, instead of getting involved, we could solve a huge part of the problem by not throwing people in jail for possessing one of the substances on a completely arbitrary list of illegal substances. It's far more likely, however, that you and I will continue to pay for the room and board of countless inmates while people die every day both abroad and here in the United States because of the violence that comes with the money that can be made in the world's biggest black market. So to keep that lovely exercise going, we'll have to start using our own soldiers to fight the cartels in Mexico if the Mexicans lose what's looking more and more like the mere illusion of control. Some of our soldiers will die if this happens, by the way. Our own men and women. The best of the best.

But anyway, let's keep arresting hippies.

[shk75]

Well, instead of getting involved, we could solve a huge part of the problem by not throwing people in jail for possessing one of the substances on a completely arbitrary list of illegal substances. It's far more likely, however, that you and I will continue to pay for the room and board of countless inmates while people die every day both abroad and here in the United States because of the violence that comes with the money that can be made in the world's biggest black market. So to keep that lovely exercise going, we'll have to start using our own soldiers to fight the cartels in Mexico if the Mexicans lose what's looking more and more like the mere illusion of control. Some of our soldiers will die if this happens, by the way. Our own men and women. The best of the best.

But anyway, let's keep arresting hippies.

....Im lost did I ever argue against this point??? I agree our drug laws are stupid and archaic and contribute to the problems at hand.

[twa]

Stupid comparsion....it is in no way like Afghanland

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yes because we all know how well US involvement in the Americas has been historically....:doh:

Please, we're not only funding the war, we're also supplying the arms. The reason there is a war South of the border is because of the people North of it.

[shk75]

Please, we're not only funding the war, we're also supplying the arms. The reason there is a war South of the border is because of the people North of it.

What, that is perhaps the most arrogant thing I have ever heard.

Edit sorry I thought it said the reason there IS A SOUTH of the border is because of the people NORTH

[Hubbs]

....Im lost did I ever argue against this point??? I agree our drug laws are stupid and archaic and contribute to the problems at hand.

Ha, sorry, didn't mean that to be confusing, I was just making a general argument against the War on Drugs because it directly feeds the growth of the cartels. It wasn't directed at you. I generally agree, we've had some bad screwups here in our home hemisphere.

[rocazares]

Stupid comparsion....it is in no way like Afghanland

I'm with you twa, but believe me, even at DF (Mexico city), down here we all live in a total mayhem.

This war is dangerous, because like I said on the other thread, everyone is living a "normal" life and then ... the cross fire begins!!

We can get caught by cross fire at the bus, at the subway, at downtown, at the movies, just walking normally in important avenues, waiting the grenn light, damn! even outside the church.

Cross fire between rival gangs or cartels versus federals, or the worst, federals who protect the cartels versus honest federals.

[Beans]

The reason there is a war South of the border is because of the people North of it.

This is laughable, yet predicatble. Obviously you struggle with circular logic.

So let me get this straight, because Americans have an insatiable apetite for illegal drugs, we are responsible for the suppliers killing each other and innocents? No, the reason there is a war south of the border is because Mexico has failed as a nation. Mexico has failed.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I'm with you twa, but believe me, even at DF (Mexico city), down here we all live in a total mayhem.

This war is dangerous, because like I said on the other thread, everyone is living a "normal" life and then ... the cross fire begins!!

We can get caught by cross fire at the bus, at the subway, at downtown, at the movies, just walking normally in important avenues, waiting the grenn light, damn! even outside the church.

Cross fire between rival gangs or cartels versus federals, or the worst, federals who protect the cartels versus honest federals.

How do you feel about the idea of the US invading Mexico to do the job the Mexican government cant?

[shk75]

This is laughable, yet predicatble. Obviously you struggle with circular logic.

So let me get this straight, because Americans have an insatiable apetite for illegal drugs, we are responsible for the suppliers killing each other and innocents? No, the reason there is a war south of the border is because Mexico has failed as a nation. Mexico has failed.

That really is a simplistic view of the situation and if you think the US plays no role in this than you are sadly mistaken, of course Mexico shares a large part of the blame as well but it is not black and white.

[Hubbs]

This is laughable, yet predicatble. Obviously you struggle with circular logic.

So let me get this straight, because Americans have an insatiable apetite for illegal drugs, we are responsible for the suppliers killing each other and innocents? No, the reason there is a war south of the border is because Mexico has failed as a nation. Mexico has failed.

No, it's because we make people who use and sell a random set of substances automatic criminals, which results in only hardcore criminals doing what's necessary to become a major player. Mexico is the country that most drugs have to go through to get to the US, because the drugs have to be smuggled over land or through coastal waters. The cartels are absurdly powerful. I don't know why you think that a different government would be more effective.

[Beans]

No, it's because we make people who use and sell a random set of substances automatic criminals, which results in only hardcore criminals doing what's necessary to become a major player. Mexico is the country that most drugs have to go through to get to the US, because the drugs have to be smuggled over land or through coastal waters.

This is irrelevant. So the U.S.'s criminal justice system is to blame for the corruption and moral failure of Mexico? I going to have to disagree with you on this one. The irony is, if Mexico would have secured both sides of their own border eons ago, innocent women and children would not be getting slaughtered, and people wouldn't be fleeing like crazy to the U.S.

The cartels are absurdly powerful. I don't know why you think that a different government would be more effective.

laughable. Corruption is what has allowed the cartels to become as powerful as they are. The Mexican government over the years owns 100% of the blame. Maybe it is just the human condition.

Hubbs, this can easily turn into the chicken and the egg argument. Could the U.S. do more, or alter policies to stifle demand for narcotics? Of course. But it is not our responsibility. Poverty, corruption, cowardice, and moral decay have sunk Mexico.

[Cept One]

Please, we're not only funding the war, we're also supplying the arms. The reason there is a war South of the border is because of the people North of it.

The cartels do not get the majority of their weapons from The US... do you have any idea how much an automatic weapon cost in the States? Fully Automatic Ak-47s go for about $15,000 a piece. Modern weapons like MP5's and M16s are well into the $20,000 range. I'm guessing you read the story in the WaPo a month or two ago that stated the the majority of traced guns in Mexico originally came from the US. What the Post and other publications fail to mention is that 80-90% of the guns seized can not and were not traced... why pay such a premium for weapons in a tightly controlled country like the United States when you can just go to any war torn country and get weapons for pennies on the dollar? I may be mistaken but i remember reading that after Saddam was overthrown you could get an AK-47 for a pack of cigarettes in Iraq.

[rocazares]

How do you feel about the idea of the US invading Mexico to do the job the Mexican government cant?

Mmmmh well ... I don't know what to say bro.

I can make absurd jokes about this issue but ...

The goverment in Mexico is corrupt to the core, the goverment is the big thieve of this nation and they never care about be economical strong, they steal the people every six years.

I hate them so much even more than the criminals, because we have the people, the natural resources and IQ to be the third greatest and strongest economy in America (the continent), but hell no, they only care about steal for life.

The cartels are stronger than before because of them, they let them grow and now we're screwed.

So, responding to your question. I feel fine if US or any other first world nation come here to kick some butts. Yeah maybe I'm betraying my country but I don't care.

I don't want to sound like a drama queen but I can give my life fighting for a true nation and the security and benefit for my family and loved ones.

Raise a child in this country is pure punishment for the kid, born at Mexico = no future.

[Mickalino]

We practically had riots in America over the potential arrests of illegals in Arizona, so imagine the ensuing outrage if we just start killing them off.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I've been saying for five years now that this war is the only one I feel strong enough about to make me volunteer. If Obama announced tomorrow that we're pulling out of the middle east and launching a counter terrorist attack on the cartels I'd be first in line at the recruiting office...and that scares me. A big part of me hopes this isn't true, and a big part of me knows it's probably inevitable.

[Tenjikuronin]

A friend of mine was telling me that the violence seen in places such as Ciudad Juarez really doesn't represent all of Mexico. According to him the country does have better places in the south, away from the U.S. border.

[Mickalino]

A friend of mine was telling me that the violence seen in places such as Ciudad Juarez really doesn't represent all of Mexico. According to him the country does have better places in the south, away from the U.S. border.

That is actually a well-known fact, and not a big secret

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is laughable, yet predicatble. Obviously you struggle with circular logic.

So let me get this straight, because Americans have an insatiable apetite for illegal drugs, we are responsible for the suppliers killing each other and innocents? No, the reason there is a war south of the border is because Mexico has failed as a nation. Mexico has failed.

Way to ignore the major causative effects that have made the Mexican drug war a possibility, and yes the insatiable appetite for illegal drugs is what is making this drug war possible, and it's what is fueling this war. They bring us the drugs, we pay them and then they buy our guns to fight their war. Sorry, that you don't understand the basic issues at play in this drug war.

---------- Post added December-13th-2010 at 11:06 PM ----------

The cartels do not get the majority of their weapons from The US... do you have any idea how much an automatic weapon cost in the States? Fully Automatic Ak-47s go for about $15,000 a piece. Modern weapons like MP5's and M16s are well into the $20,000 range. I'm guessing you read the story in the WaPo a month or two ago that stated the the majority of traced guns in Mexico originally came from the US. What the Post and other publications fail to mention is that 80-90% of the guns seized can not and were not traced... why pay such a premium for weapons in a tightly controlled country like the United States when you can just go to any war torn country and get weapons for pennies on the dollar? I may be mistaken but i remember reading that after Saddam was overthrown you could get an AK-47 for a pack of cigarettes in Iraq.

Apparently you haven't been watching the news.

[Destino]

When I read comparisons like this I see a great deal of bias. Comparing an advanced state ripped apart by an enemy that makes Al Qaeda look like a bunch of amateur hour morons to a nation with no infrastructure. Afghanistan, when things are going well, was run by a coalition of warlords with nothing resembling a centralized government. It makes you wonder if these people have been to Mexico or outside the US at all. Mexico is an advanced nation, surely not to the degree that the US is, but a century ahead of Afghanistan.

People need to understand that what is plaguing Mexico is no small threat. The drug cartels command armies and have logistical supply lines into every city in the world. They smuggle drugs into maximum security prisons and into nations where drugs are a punished so severely that it leaves Americans horrified. They smuggle people for a slave trade most don't even full grasp. They have so many officials subverted that they could put intelligence agencies to shame. Speaking of which they certainly aren't easily caught by said agencies so they clearly have the capability few groups in this modern world can muster... and they don't do it hiding in tribal caves and living like refugees. They live like kings and reach out and snuff out those that challenge their reign of terror... until overwhelmed and immediately replaced by their competition. The drug war has cost far more than the war on terror and there isn't a kid in the US that can't score weed in 3 days if he has the will and the money. Once that connection is made that same kid can most likely score any drug he wants other than the exotic stuff despite the US spending mountains of money and mobilizing state and federal agencies of significance to prevent exactly that.

Cartels are a serious enemy and they don't fight you, they buy your government out from under you and terrorize the rest. Columbia has fought the drug war to a nasty draw despite US intervention, military use, and a powerful militia that basically dedicates itself to murdering drug cartel members. Mexico is in a world of **** and it's a crying shame. We are watching an advanced nation die and the world doesn't seem to want to recognize the scope of the threat they are facing. We act as if cartels are small potatoes when they've proven to be the biggest threat an advanced nation can possibly face outside of a full scale war.

Just ask yourself this, how many individuals at points of entry and local governments in the US are bought by those cartels destroying mexico? What happens if they win this little fight and can focus exclusively on improving their supply lines into their cash cow?

[Hubbs]

This is irrelevant. So the U.S.'s criminal justice system is to blame for the corruption and moral failure of Mexico? I going to have to disagree with you on this one. The irony is, if Mexico would have secured both sides of their own border eons ago, innocent women and children would not be getting slaughtered, and people wouldn't be fleeing like crazy to the U.S.

False. You think the cartels wouldn't have found a way around any type of security? "Hey, we could make millions and millions of dollars, all tax-free, and we know we're powerful enough to literally kill any police officer who interferes with us in a town of our choosing, but damnit, those low-paid border patrol agents who we couldn't possibly bribe and who have families we couldn't possibly threaten are in the way. And there's a wall! A wall! How the hell are we supposed to beat a wall?"

laughable. Corruption is what has allowed the cartels to become as powerful as they are. The Mexican government over the years owns 100% of the blame. Maybe it is just the human condition.

The only thing that's laughable is your suggestion that a billion-dollar black market won't create corruption around anything it touches, and that the corruption won't become more and more concentrated as the products of the market become more and more concentrated. There's no place on earth that's hosting as many drugs at any given time than northern Mexico. No place. But yes, I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

Hubbs, this can easily turn into the chicken and the egg argument. Could the U.S. do more, or alter policies to stifle demand for narcotics? Of course. But it is not our responsibility. Poverty, corruption, cowardice, and moral decay have sunk Mexico.

No, our policies have fueled poverty, corruption, cowardice, and moral decay. You're calling the problem an egg when there's a chicken right in front of your face.

[Destino]

I hate them so much even more than the criminals, because we have the people, the natural resources and IQ to be the third greatest and strongest economy in America (the continent), but hell no, they only care about steal for life.The cartels are stronger than before because of them, they let them grow and now we're screwed.

This is true but defeatism won't help either. Cartels can be defeated but the will and the bloodshed needed to do so is significant.

So, responding to your question. I feel fine if US or any other first world nation come here to kick some butts. Yeah maybe I'm betraying my country but I don't care.

I don't want to sound like a drama queen but I can give my life fighting for a true nation and the security and benefit for my family and loved ones.

Raise a child in this country is pure punishment for the kid, born at Mexico = no future.

That is not a betrayal of Mexico. If you're home is infested with rats you put out some traps... but when it doesn't work you call for outside help. The alternative is accepting the vermin.