Redstate: Mexico is America's Next Afghanistan

[Cept One]

You don't like the CIA saying Mexico is the #1 foreign producer of pot for the american market....

I never said Mexico wasn't the #1 foreign producer i said that the majority of cannabis in the US is home grown right here in the US. The cartels have even started to grow in the national forest of Cali because their garbage brick weed does not sell in the current market.

[JMS]

I never said Mexico wasn't the #1 foreign producer i said that the majority of cannabis in the US is home grown right here in the US. The cartels have even started to grow in the national forest of Cali because their garbage brick weed does not sell in the current market.

According to the sources cited.... Half of the Pot sold in the United States comes from Mexico. Half is home grown. Of the half grown in the United States the Mexican Cartels are also the largest internal producers of domestic pot in the United States. While still smuggling the bulk of their drugs into the country, they have shifted some of their production inside the United States in recent years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/us...pagewanted=all

[Cept One]

Half of the Pot sold in the United States comes from Mexico. Half is home grown.

so if 50% comes from the US and 50% comes from Mexico that leaves Canada less than 1% of the importation... which is simply not true. The problem with statistics relating to a black market is they are complete bull**** based on estimates from drug bust and the word of arrested criminals & snitches. Not exactly reliable sources if you ask me.

[JMS]

so if 50% comes from the US and 50% comes from Mexico that leaves Canada less than 1% of the importation... which is simply not true. The problem with statistics relating to a black market is they are complete bull**** based on estimates from drug bust and the word of arrested criminals & snitches. Not exactly reliable sources if you ask me.

I don't know what your point is anymore. Canada doesn't have a violent drug cartel murdering Canadian policemen.. We haven't had a recent Canadian drug bust where 130 tons of canadian weed has been confiscated....

The point is Pot is a staple of the Mexican drug cartels. It's their largest crop, it's one of their most profitable crops. If pot were legalized tommorrow it would take a huge chunk of profits out of their pockets... As would cocain, herione and Meth.

[Cept One]

It's their largest crop, it's one of their most profitable crops. If pot were legalized tommorrow it would take a huge chunk of profits out of their pockets... As would cocain, herione and Meth.

Of course it is their largest and most profitable crop... cocaine & heroin are not grown or produced in Mexico just smuggled thru it. Meth is produced in Mexico but is not a crop. All drugs must be legalized to have any real effect on the cartel's profits. I was just trying to clarify the misconception that cannabis is a large portion of the cartels income when it is just a small slice of the pie which is decreasing rapidly due to their inferior product.

[Taylor4Life]

The black market rules a big part of this economy and some big corporations long way back helped little cartels to make some money and that way the money laundering was faster than before. Now the cartels are terrorists overwhelming every federal, military force.

There's no way back, the fix solutions are no longer a possibility, if US' economy will absoofrb us in a short period of time, a lot of work must be done.

Sometimes I get the feeliing that the Mexican government wants to pay a whole lot of lip service to treating the symptoms of the problems, without trying to find a cure to the disease.

They want to fight the drug cartels, kidnapping, and they even want to get rid of the priated movies that are sold at flea markets for a dollar a pop, but they never really address economic reform and alleviating poverty. For that reason, many Mexicans are frustrated and feel powerless.

[JMS]

Of course it is their largest and most profitable crop... cocaine & heroin are not grown or produced in Mexico just smuggled thru it. Meth is produced in Mexico but is not a crop. .

Mexico does grow poppies and refine opium to manufacture heroin.

Mexico - major drug-producing nation; cultivation of opium poppy in 2007 rose to 6,900 hectares yielding a potential production of 18 metric tons of pure heroin, or 50 metric tons of "black tar" heroin, the dominant form of Mexican heroin in the western United States;

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2086.html

And the Mexican Cartels are in the Cocain production market too..

Mexican drug czars are muscling into Colombia, encroaching on the multibillion-dollar cocaine industry traditionally controlled by cartels from cities like Medellin and Cali, according to several U.S. intelligence officials.

Mexican drug organizations are “dipping further ... into Colombia’s cocaine market,” said a U.S. law enforcement official, with knowledge of Mexican and Colombian drug operations.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/world/mexican-drug-czars-encroach-colombian-cocaine-cartels#ixzz18JCpQYwf

All drugs must be legalized to have any real effect on the cartel's profits. I was just trying to clarify the misconception that cannabis is a large portion of the cartels income when it is just a small slice of the pie which is decreasing rapidly due to their inferior product.

The Heroin and Cocain markets are cyclical. They grow and shrink depending upon supply and demand. The Pot market is much more reliable and always growing. That's what makes it so important. I believe the Meth demand is also constantly growing as Meth is very addictive. but I'm not sure about that.

[Hubbs]

Come back to reality, Hubbs. Your position is that we should make all drugs legal. No one of consequence is interested in bringing anything to your table.

That's not even remotely true and you know it.

[Cept One]

Mexico does grow poppies and refine opium to manufacture heroin.

Yes but not on a large scale...

In 2007, 92% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan according to the UNITED NATIONS Office on Drugs and Crime. The US is the largest consumer of illicit drugs so it is safe to say that the majority of heroin in the US is not from Mexican grows.

And the Mexican Cartels are in the Cocain production market too..

yes but not in Mexico... if it is grown in Colombia it is a Colombian crop.

The Heroin and Cocain markets are cyclical. They grow and shrink depending upon supply and demand. The Pot market is much more reliable and always growing. That's what makes it so important. I believe the Meth demand is also constantly growing as Meth is very addictive. but I'm not sure about that.

The demand for all drugs has been consistently on the rise in the US for at least the last 30yrs.

[mardi gras skin]

That's not even remotely true and you know it.

Fergasun asked, how do we avoide becoming collateral damage in the emerging drug war? You responded, "Easy. Eliminate the cause of the drug war."

Obviously, legalizing only pot doesn't eliminate the cause of the drug war. If not the legalization of all illegal drugs, what were you suggesting?

edit: No, I was right. In post #77 you respond to Destino, making it clear you want to legalize all drugs. Destino nailed it. Legalizing meth, heroin, coke, etc. is not going to happen. You'd have better luck pushing the pixie dust angle.

[Cept One]

Legalizing meth, heroin, coke, etc. is not going to happen. You'd have better luck pushing the pixie dust angle.

you are probably right and the violence in Mexico will continue until this changes

[Hubbs]

Fergasun asked, how do we avoide becoming collateral damage in the emerging drug war? You responded, "Easy. Eliminate the cause of the drug war."

Obviously, legalizing only pot doesn't eliminate the cause of the drug war. If not the legalization of all illegal drugs, what were you suggesting?

edit: No, I was right. In post #77 you respond to Destino, making it clear you want to legalize all drugs. Destino nailed it. Legalizing meth, heroin, coke, etc. is not going to happen. You'd have better luck pushing the pixie dust angle.

You think I was referring to your description of my stance?

That's not was untrue, and what you know was untrue. What was untrue was your claim that "no one of consequence is interested in bringing anything to [my] table."

Try again.

Legalizing meth, heroin, coke, etc. is not going to happen. You'd have better luck pushing the pixie dust angle.

Right, because this hasn't been done in another First World country ohheywaitaminute....

By the way, I like how your goal isn't to figure out the best way to deal with our problems, but to openly laugh at potential solutions because it would take a lot of effort to sway Americans to believe they're correct.

[mardi gras skin]

By the way, I like how your goal isn't to figure out the best way to deal with our problems, but to openly laugh at potential solutions because it would take a lot of effort to sway Americans to believe they're correct.

Of course I'm laughing. You think legalizing meth, heroin, and cocaine is a fantastic solution to the Mexican cartel problem. That's laughable, Hubbs. It will not happen. Its less likely to happen than the nuke-em-all "solution" offered by the less enlightened following 9/11. Mutter whatever you want into your empty beer bottle, but don't expect me to mistake your rant with a realistic solution.

The only way the cartel's power will diminish is if Mexico grows beyond third world status. You're wrong about Canada and Mexico being interchangeable. Mexico lacks the economic, political, judicial, and social service infrastructure that Canada has. Mexican police and politicians STARTED the cartels. If Mexico's economy and government was as robust as Canada's, the cartels there would have no more power than gangs do the United States.

So pop open another one and go on ranting about your magic fairy dust...your silver bullet of drug legalization that will solve all our problems. But when you sober up, you'll realize the cartels won't lose power until Mexico's government and economy improves dramatically. Simply taking away one stream of revenue doesn't address the corruption that gave rise to the cartels or the pressure to generate an underground economy. There are no shortcuts.

[Hubbs]

Of course I'm laughing. You think legalizing meth, heroin, and cocaine is a fantastic solution to the Mexican cartel problem. That's laughable, Hubbs. It will not happen. Its less likely to happen than the nuke-em-all "solution" offered by the less enlightened following 9/11. Mutter whatever you want into your empty beer bottle, but don't expect me to mistake your rant with a realistic solution.

"It won't happen because it won't happen!"

I suggest you find a new rallying cry.

The only way the cartel's power will diminish is if Mexico grows beyond third world status. You're wrong about Canada and Mexico being interchangeable.

Well, at least you've presented a lot of evidence for that argument. Like... um... gosh, I must be blanking. Care to refresh my memory? At least I have real-world experiments. What do you have?

Mexico lacks the economic, political, judicial, and social service infrastructure that Canada has. Mexican police and politicians STARTED the cartels. If Mexico's economy and government was as robust as Canada's, the cartels there would have no more power than gangs do the United States.

I notice that every time I've asked you to point to an example of your beliefs playing out in real life, you haven't answered.

Feel like answering yet?

So pop open another one and go on ranting about your magic fairy dust...your silver bullet of drug legalization that will solve all our problems. But when you sober up, you'll realize the cartels won't lose power until Mexico's government and economy improves dramatically. Simply taking away one stream of revenue doesn't address the corruption that gave rise to the cartels or the pressure to generate an underground economy. There are no shortcuts.

Of course there will be organizations dealing in other illegal activities. The cartels wouldn't be eliminated. But their power would be greatly reduced.

[mardi gras skin]

"It won't happen because it won't happen!"

I suggest you find a new rallying cry.

Suggest whatever you want. You and I both know its true. It. Won't. Happen. When you find me just 5 congressmen of either house willing to make cocaine, heroin, and meth legal, get back to me.

Well, at least you've presented a lot of evidence for that argument. Like... um... gosh, I must be blanking. Care to refresh my memory? At least I have real-world experiments. What do you have?

Did I miss some side-by-side comparison where you demonstrated how the two countries were similar?

I notice that every time I've asked you to point to an example of your beliefs playing out in real life, you haven't answered.

Fine, apparently you have some information I don't have. Do you have examples of Canadian government corruption and police extortion that compare to those found in Mexico? I haven't heard of them. Am I wrong that the Canadian economy is far more diverse and robust than Mexico's? Please, show me where I'm wrong. Is it true that the Canadian judicial system is as dysfunctional as Mexico's? Enlighten me.

Here's the thing, Hubbs. Not all statements require equal proof. Your assertion that Mexico and Canada are interchangeable is the more unbelievable. Burden of proof falls to you.

[visionary]

I don't think legalizing drugs here will do a whole lot to stop the killing in Mexico.

These guys have plenty of other illegal avenues for money and violence besides drug smuggling and they aren't going to just let their power slip away without trying to switch to something else possibly worse or having a bloodbath to hold onto what they have)

Of course anyone who thinks that our drug usage in the US is the reason people are dying there is encouraged to do their best to try to lower the usage by pleading with anyone they know who uses drugs to stop supporting the cartels....

Probably more helpful than constantly complaining about drug laws that aren't going to change much anytime soon.

(Although I do think pot will be slowly legalized eventually.

I don't think it will happen in time to help Mexico a whole lot in the near future, if it even would make much of a difference in the violence (doubtful in my mind))

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

What other illegal avenues for money would lead the cartels to wage war with each other and essentially wage war with a country?

[Cept One]

I don't think legalizing drugs here will do a whole lot to stop the killing in Mexico.

These guys have plenty of other illegal avenues for money and violence besides drug smuggling and they aren't going to just let their power slip away without trying to switch to something else possibly worse or having a bloodbath to hold onto what they have)

It would definitely reduce their income making it more difficult for the cartels to bribe and corrupt Gov't and Military officials. Violence between the rival cartels would almost certainly increase in the short term while they struggle to keep control which is why a military campaign against the cartels while they are weak might not be such a bad idea.

[mardi gras skin]

What other illegal avenues for money would lead the cartels to wage war with each other and essentially wage war with a country?

Los Zetas were early adaptors into diversified revenue streams like piracy kidnapping and slavery. They are also Mexico's most ruthless cartel. They aren't only waging war to project their drug trade.

The focus on drugs in myopic. The 72 people killed a few months ago wasn't a drug trafficking incident, that was a Zetas human trafficking incident. The cartels see extortion and slavery (people sold and used for labor or prostitution) as a lucrative cash crop. A highly renewable cash crop. They can only sell an ounce of cocaine once but they can sell a 13 year old girl over and over and over until she's used up. Right now, there are over 50,000 child slaves in Mexico earning the cartels income, mostly at tourist destinations like Cancun.

The cartels fight to control this resource as hard as they do any other revenue stream.

[visionary]

What other illegal avenues for money would lead the cartels to wage war with each other and essentially wage war with a country?

Well obviously kidnapping is huge over there. And dog fighting is pretty big too, although that's probably more a gang thing.

Political corruption is pretty good for business down there too and I'm sure it doesn't require drugs to fund it, plenty of people die over it though.

Sexual slavery, assassination contracting, human trafficking, stuff like that as well.

And what about all the drugs that people use In Mexico?

I admit that I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Mexico has a lot more problems than just drugs being smuggeled into the us.

I think it's pretty simplistic to think that legalizing drugs in the US (possible or not) is going to suddenly save Mexico from all this corrution and violence.

It's kind of like removing a chunk of ice from the top of an iceburg.

[Hubbs]

Suggest whatever you want. You and I both know its true. It. Won't. Happen. When you find me just 5 congressmen of either house willing to make cocaine, heroin, and meth legal, get back to me.

Your argument is preposterous. Virtually all of these substances have been legal before, and you won't even consider the possibility that legalization is the best option for everyone because the US has developed a stubborn stance that will take time and effort to counter? The fact that you'd literally rather mock those who are willing to put in that time and effort than even acknowledge the slightest chance that even though my odds are slim, my idea could potentially be the best option, is a really unflattering reflection upon your own values. You know I'd support every intermediate step - like legalizing pot by itself or decriminalizing possession in small amounts and offering medical help instead of jail time - but my opinion that full-scale legalization would be best for everyone apparently infuriates you so much that you can't stand even the mere suggestion of that possibility on an Internet message board.

I never said it would be easy. I never said it's likely. All I said was that it was the best choice. You can't even stand a debate about the matter. So go ahead, keep plugging your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs. But I'd appreciate it if you merely allowed me to try to do what I think is right, rather than engaging in a crusade to convince others not that my evidence is trumped by better evidence, not that a discussion about social changes that could save lives isn't worthwhile, but that I can't change peoples' minds because I can't change peoples' minds. If that's all you have to add to the discussion, then I believe quite a few of those minds that I'm attempting to change would actually agree with me when I say that you should show some common ****ing courtesy and get out of the thread.

Did I miss some side-by-side comparison where you demonstrated how the two countries were similar?

Did I miss any evidence at all that you've posted to refute what I've been saying?

Fine, apparently you have some information I don't have. Do you have examples of Canadian government corruption and police extortion that compare to those found in Mexico? I haven't heard of them. Am I wrong that the Canadian economy is far more diverse and robust than Mexico's? Please, show me where I'm wrong. Is it true that the Canadian judicial system is as dysfunctional as Mexico's? Enlighten me.

Here's the thing, Hubbs. Not all statements require equal proof. Your assertion that Mexico and Canada are interchangeable is the more unbelievable. Burden of proof falls to you.

No, here's the real thing, mardi. You're literally the only person who I've ever discussed this with - including plenty who disagree with me for other reasons - who hasn't acknowledged that Mexico is one of the most fertile grounds for drug cartels in the world by virtue of the simple facts that Canada is the only country to our north while there are several dozen countries to our south, that most drugs that are smuggled into the US are smuggled by land, that Mexico is the only country by which any drugs can be smuggled over land into the US from the south, and that Mexico is an easy funnel for drug traffic from an entire continent while Canada is an easy funnel for drug traffic from, well, Canada. No, instead you want me to somehow prove a negative, that it's not a difference in corruption when much of the corruption is likely caused by the very difference in drug activity that you dismiss so casually, and when it's impossible to know the true level of corruption because when it's successful, it's a secret.

Los Zetas were early adaptors into diversified revenue streams like piracy kidnapping and slavery. They are also Mexico's most ruthless cartel. They aren't only waging war to project their drug trade.

The focus on drugs in myopic. The 72 people killed a few months ago wasn't a drug trafficking incident, that was a Zetas human trafficking incident. The cartels see extortion and slavery (people sold and used for labor or prostitution) as a lucrative cash crop. A highly renewable cash crop. They can only sell an ounce of cocaine once but they can sell a 13 year old girl over and over and over until she's used up. Right now, there are over 50,000 child slaves in Mexico earning the cartels income, mostly at tourist destinations like Cancun.

The cartels fight to control this resource as hard as they do any other revenue stream.

Ah, well that makes sense. The fact that drugs aren't the only profitable illegal activity means that any calls to legalize for the greater good are foolish, as removing mere billions of dollars for the cartels' revenue stream couldn't possibly be a major blow to their operations. On the other hand, I'm sure we're much more likely to eradicate all black markets through sheer force, since that's been accomplished exactly zero times in human history.

[r3dsk1ns4L1fe]

What percentage of guns in Mexico come from the United States?

the percentage is essentially difficult to trace but the fact that an industrialized nation regulates the availability of assault weapons amongst its population with blatant disregard for safety or possible repercussions within nations that share a border with us is rather ignorant dont you think? i am the son of illegal immigrants, i am proud to be an american, but this country needs to learn that this bull**** ronald reagan drug policy hasnt worked for decades, makes us look bad and affects what happens in countries that share borders with us.

---------- Post added December-20th-2010 at 04:33 AM ----------

my cousin was murdered in the massacre at Tamaulipas. yes she was on her way here illegally (from El Salvador) but that doesn't justify the actions of los zetas. they're a ****ing a joke, mexico is a failed state and until the US intervenes militarily in a war that it is directly responsible for its only going to get worse on both sides of the border.

[twa]

Texas deploys armored gunboats on the border.....overkill or just right??

http://98.158.189.153/lalinea/armored-gun-boats-on-the-rio-grande

In early December, the Texas Department of Public Safety unveiled its new armored gun boats. The fact that DPS now has a tactical marine unit received scant news coverage. There was also little mention that each boat is equipped with anwhere from four to six machine guns. That’s right, one or two machine guns just doesn't cut it for DPS when it comes to fighting the "War on Drugs."

If you're curious, that’s two machine guns on each side of the boat. Then another gun positioned in the front and one in the back. Not bad if you’re patrolling the Suez Canal for Somali pirates. But these are for the Rio Grande

Is the U.S. Military Deepening its Operations in Mexico?

http://www.texasobserver.org/lalinea/is-the-us-military-deepening-its-operations-in-mexico

With the security situation worsening in Mexico, Army North seems to be taking a stronger interest in our neighbor to the south. In 2012, U.S. Gen. William Caldwell will take over command of Army North in San Antonio. He’s spent the last two years training Afghan security forces. Caldwell is relatively young and very well respected inside and outside the Beltway.

It doesn’t seem logical that the U.S. Army would send Caldwell to San Antonio unless they had an important operation for him to command. Northern Command has already been tasked with training Mexican security forces for the past three years. With Caldwell in charge the question is will U.S. Northcom ramp up its efforts in Mexico? Anybody vaguely familiar with U.S.-Mexico relations knows that no Mexican politician who wants to win an election would ever allow armed and uniformed U.S. soldiers onto Mexican territory. But how far will they allow U.S. officials to operate covertly?

[deejaydana]

I'm actually open to the idea of annexation. We could start with only the Baja Peninsula and use it as a trial phase. I've been going down to/traveling to Mexico for 2 decades and it's sad to see how badly the average person there has been shafted by their own gov't. Nothing ever changes and this wave of unending violence has pretty much swamped much of their tourist trade. It's no wonder they come here in search of something more stable and safe. Interesting read and certainly thought provoking.

[Madison Redskin]

tdub,

Are those a pair of SAWs on the front of that boat? Do they plan to go upriver and kill Colonel Kurtz?