Redstate: Mexico is America's Next Afghanistan

[JMS]

S0mething f0rmer Mexican Pres F0x sp0ke 0penly ab0ut w0rking 0n with Bush.

It w0uld help c0mpete with China financially, that's f0r sure.

It would help maintain America's economy at the top, it would make us more compeditive going forward. It would generate trillions of new government infrastructure contracts for industry to get fat off of.

There is a lot of up side to the plan.. economically....

The down side is of coarse the entire thing is being engineered in the shadows.

---------- Post added December-14th-2010 at 02:10 PM ----------

Hey man, just watch that larry king clip with President Fox.

I know... When George Shultz and Warren Christopher two leading foreign policy experts from both the democrat and republican parties attend these meetings.. you have got to think serious talks are going on.

[Hubbs]

Hubbs what you're asking for is never going to happen. Wide scale drug legalization will not occur at any point in the near future because many of the drugs in question are simply too dangerous to warrant legal status.

It'll never happen because too many people believe things like "many of the drugs in question are simply too dangerous to warrant legal status."

That's a joke. It's provably false over and over and over again. Yet here I sit, having to state that it's provably false, because so many people believe it to be true. Like I said... boogeymen.

Decriminalization may HELP drug cartels that have literally set up shop on our borders.

You can't possibly be serious. Name a legal addictive substance that's controlled by black market cartels who take down entire countries.

"Did you hear about Bacardi's drive-by that killed 14 Captain Morgan employees last week? Looks like Bacardi's getting serious...."

Marijuana can certainly be legalized at some point with limited societal impact but I don't think slave creating drugs like heroin, meth, and crack (which is coke) will ever be up for the legalization discussion.

Again, Portugal.

Plus remember these guys don't just smuggle feel good pills, they smuggle people and anything else the black market needs to move that pays enough to justify the risk.

You know what would put an end to every incentive to smuggle anything at all really, really quickly?

These organizations have to be dismantled. In order to see what is necessary first you have to view them properly and stop pretending they are a small threat.

If you think I consider them to be a small threat, then I doubt you've read any of my posts in this thread.

The Taliban took down a tribal nation with a great deal of help from the cold war. The Cartels battled a much more formidable modern state in Columbia to a draw despite US help and they are doing it again with an even stronger state in Mexico. Two modern nation states being almost entirely subverted on the US side of the world. Meanwhile despite the US's best effort, and amazing amounts of money, drugs are readily available in the US to anyone that wants them. Bolivia has caved to the cartels as well and that moron President of theirs sleeps at night telling himself he has them under control.

How many states have to fall before it's time to recognize the growing threat on our side of the planet?

It's amazing how you can acknowledge the same reality that I do, yet come to the conclusion that the solution is to double down on the things that haven't worked for forty years.

I can tell you exactly what will happen if we follow your suggestions in three words: They won't work.

But go ahead, keep believing that you're going to be able to shut down a billion-dollar industry fueled by addicts who will do anything and pay anything for their next hit and by black market organizations that make more money than God and that can offer massive bribes to anyone and can threaten to send anyone the heads of their own family members in UPS boxes. I have no idea why you think that legalization would somehow empower the cartels when example after example after example shows that legalization pulls the rug out from under black market organizations because legal organizations simply work better. Portugal has decriminalized virtually all drugs, and Portugese teenagers are using virtually every drug that was previously deemed illegal less than when they actually were illegal. Spain's not far behind. The Dutch are famous for their pot legalization, yet they don't smoke as much as many EU populations who have to hide from the police. (Off the top of my head, I believe the EU has also published a study which shows that the Dutch smoke less now than they did before pot was decriminalized.) Then, of course, there's our own experience with alcohol prohibition, along with the fact that most of our illegal drugs were once not only legal, but marketed as medicine - yet we somehow managed to become the strongest industrial economy in the world while this was the case, and most of our population somehow avoided narcotic addiction.

By the way, not very many people know how the black market operates, but the reason marijuana got labeled a "gateway drug" has nothing to do with marijuana itself. It happened because selling marijuana isn't nearly as profitable as selling speed, or cocaine, or meth, or heroin. And since someone who deals pot is quite likely to sell other drugs, regular pot customers are offered a few hits of a harder drug for free. The same is true for regular customers of any other drug - they're always offered something stronger. And once they're hooked on something stronger, well, like I said, they'll pay anything for it. Ka-ching. Now imagine if we legalized and controlled harder drugs, which we already do through companies like CVS. (I'm continually surprised by how many people seem to be damn near unwilling to grasp how similar many legal drugs are to illegal drugs. Want to know how similar Oxycodone, morphine, and heroin are?) When was the last time someone at CVS said, "Hey, I see you're buying Robitussin, would you like some free Percocet with that?"

Most addicts are created on purpose by dealers. And this continues to happen because the only people who sell illegal drugs are people aren't controlled by any medical, ethical, or legal boundaries. They're controlled by their desire to make money. Period. When you advocate continued drug prohibition, you advocate countless new addictions, and then you tell yourself that you're really preventing addictions because there are just so many people out there who want to become addicted to heroin, yet would only do so if it wasn't against the law.

I hear firsthand accounts (the kind, truthfully, I shouldn't be hearing) about the Mexican Drug Cartels and the way they do business. They are absolutely ruthless. They make the mafia look boy scouts. The human trafficking and recruitment of "soldiers" is probably the most sad.

One thing that nobody is talking about is the pending drug war here in the US. We're already starting to see it. In many cities the Mexicans control all of the supply but none of the distribution. That is starting to change, where Mexicans are starting to distribute as well. Think this is going to go over well with our street gangs? It is going to be ugly... and when this starts occuring on a large scale (and it will), thats when the US will most likely act.

Oh good, more Americans dead. I bet we can eliminate gangs who are literally willing to risk death to sell drugs by threatening violence against them. Yeah, that sounds like it'll work.

The question we should be asking is, are we at fault enough to send our boys and girls down to the slaughter. I say no. Last thing we need right now is another war we can't win in a country that doesn't want us there fighting a group of insurgents that you cannot tell apart from the locals.

Like I said, when the violence erupts on this side of the border, that's probably when we'll get in line.

I'm not absolving the US of blame. I think your 99% is about right . I cringe, however, when I read how we're at fault because we are a consumer. When you extrapolate that logic, it doesn't hold up.

Right. As long as other people are dying, that's fine.

This theory ignores the fact Mexico is perfectly capable of handling the problems,in fact it is a needed step for them to advance.

It's gonna be ugly though.

No, Mexico isn't capable of that.

Agreed. Mexico is fully capable of handling this themselves. But why bother when big brother to the north will just take care of it for them.

Yeah I agree too this is part of the process they have to go through. Look at Chile just 30 years ago it was in the process of a dirty war with the US operating the School of the Americas and playing a part in removing Allende, yet Chile was able to overcome this themselves and are now a model nation of the Americas. Mexico needs to go through this process to weed out the corrupt officials. Hopefully someone will be able to spark change within and the government that comes out of this process will help lead the resurgence of Mexico.

Jesus Christ, the heads of police officers are being sent to police stations, the government has called upon the military to fight the cartels, entire towns have dug ****ing trenches around their borders to trap dealers, and this many people really think Mexico just doesn't have enough gosh-darned political will on this one? Really?

[r3dsk1ns4L1fe]

I just wrote a paper on this and basically...

By establishing lenient gun laws, promoting ineffective drug policies, and remaining the primary purchaser of drugs from Mexico, the United States has greatly contributed to the declining security in Mexico and bordering cities within the U.S.

If you fail to realize this then I don't know what to tell you.

[zoony]

I just wrote a paper on this and basically...

By establishing lenient gun laws, promoting ineffective drug policies, and remaining the primary purchaser of drugs from Mexico, the United States has greatly contributed to the declining security in Mexico and bordering cities within the U.S.

If you fail to realize this then I don't know what to tell you.

In other news, China is responsible for our deficit, not us.

[GoSkins561]

I just wrote a paper on this and basically...

By establishing lenient gun laws, promoting ineffective drug policies, and remaining the primary purchaser of drugs from Mexico, the United States has greatly contributed to the declining security in Mexico and bordering cities within the U.S.

If you fail to realize this then I don't know what to tell you.

What percentage of guns in Mexico come from the United States?

[Koolblue13]

I just wrote a paper on this and basically...

By establishing lenient gun laws, promoting ineffective drug policies, and remaining the primary purchaser of drugs from Mexico, the United States has greatly contributed to the declining security in Mexico and bordering cities within the U.S.

If you fail to realize this then I don't know what to tell you.

N0t t0 menti0n, changing the laws that dep0rted Mexican criminals back h0me, where they were able t0 establish gangs like MS13 and create an even sm00ther way t0 get the drugs back and f0rth.

[Cept One]

What percentage of guns in Mexico come from the United States?

a very small percentage and those weapons are almost completely small arms (pistols, shotguns & semi-automatic rifles) not the military grade weapons pictured below

[GoSkins561]

a very small percentage and those weapons are almost completely small arms (pistols, shotguns & semi-automatic rifles) not the military grade weapons pictured belowG]

Must be our lenient gun laws that contribute to all of the violence in Mexico.

[Skin'Em84]

I just wrote a paper on this and basically...

By establishing lenient gun laws, promoting ineffective drug policies, and remaining the primary purchaser of drugs from Mexico, the United States has greatly contributed to the declining security in Mexico and bordering cities within the U.S.

If you fail to realize this then I don't know what to tell you.

We have and we haven't.

That's like saying that if you cut someone off in traffic and they get pissed and go home and beat their wife, it's your fault.

Mexico failed as a country because Mexico failed. Did we give them the help we probably should? Nope, but that's a whole different argument.

[Hubbs]

We have and we haven't.

That's like saying that if you cut someone off in traffic and they get pissed and go home and beat their wife' date=' it's your fault.

Mexico failed as a country because Mexico failed. Did we give them the help we probably should? Nope, but that's a whole different argument.[/quote']

I love how the simple fact that Mexico failed is proof of the cause of Mexico's failure. Because no nation has ever fallen apart due to forces it couldn't control.

[Spec138]

It'll never happen because too many people believe things like "many of the drugs in question are simply too dangerous to warrant legal status."

That's a joke. It's provably false over and over and over again. Yet here I sit, having to state that it's provably false, because so many people believe it to be true. Like I said... boogeymen.

You can't possibly be serious. Name a legal addictive substance that's controlled by black market cartels who take down entire countries.

"Did you hear about Bacardi's drive-by that killed 14 Captain Morgan employees last week? Looks like Bacardi's getting serious...."

Again, Portugal.

You know what would put an end to every incentive to smuggle anything at all really, really quickly?

If you think I consider them to be a small threat, then I doubt you've read any of my posts in this thread.

It's amazing how you can acknowledge the same reality that I do, yet come to the conclusion that the solution is to double down on the things that haven't worked for forty years.

I can tell you exactly what will happen if we follow your suggestions in three words: They won't work.

But go ahead, keep believing that you're going to be able to shut down a billion-dollar industry fueled by addicts who will do anything and pay anything for their next hit and by black market organizations that make more money than God and that can offer massive bribes to anyone and can threaten to send anyone the heads of their own family members in UPS boxes. I have no idea why you think that legalization would somehow empower the cartels when example after example after example shows that legalization pulls the rug out from under black market organizations because legal organizations simply work better. Portugal has decriminalized virtually all drugs, and Portugese teenagers are using virtually every drug that was previously deemed illegal less than when they actually were illegal. Spain's not far behind. The Dutch are famous for their pot legalization, yet they don't smoke as much as many EU populations who have to hide from the police. (Off the top of my head, I believe the EU has also published a study which shows that the Dutch smoke less now than they did before pot was decriminalized.) Then, of course, there's our own experience with alcohol prohibition, along with the fact that most of our illegal drugs were once not only legal, but marketed as medicine - yet we somehow managed to become the strongest industrial economy in the world while this was the case, and most of our population somehow avoided narcotic addiction.

By the way, not very many people know how the black market operates, but the reason marijuana got labeled a "gateway drug" has nothing to do with marijuana itself. It happened because selling marijuana isn't nearly as profitable as selling speed, or cocaine, or meth, or heroin. And since someone who deals pot is quite likely to sell other drugs, regular pot customers are offered a few hits of a harder drug for free. The same is true for regular customers of any other drug - they're always offered something stronger. And once they're hooked on something stronger, well, like I said, they'll pay anything for it. Ka-ching. Now imagine if we legalized and controlled harder drugs, which we already do through companies like CVS. (I'm continually surprised by how many people seem to be damn near unwilling to grasp how similar many legal drugs are to illegal drugs. Want to know how similar Oxycodone, morphine, and heroin are?) When was the last time someone at CVS said, "Hey, I see you're buying Robitussin, would you like some free Percocet with that?"

Most addicts are created on purpose by dealers. And this continues to happen because the only people who sell illegal drugs are people aren't controlled by any medical, ethical, or legal boundaries. They're controlled by their desire to make money. Period. When you advocate continued drug prohibition, you advocate countless new addictions, and then you tell yourself that you're really preventing addictions because there are just so many people out there who want to become addicted to heroin, yet would only do so if it wasn't against the law.

I could have sworn I argued something like this with you before, but I agree with everything you've said. +1

[twa]

I love how the simple fact that Mexico failed is proof of the cause of Mexico's failure. Because no nation has ever fallen apart due to outside forces.

Is it outside forces?..Those with power allowed both the corruption and drug trade to grow over the years,and one feeds the other

The dog has slipped it's leash,but the match ain't over yet

[Hubbs]

I could have sworn I argued something like this with you before, but I agree with everything you've said. +1

If we argued, there must have been some miscommunication. I'm one of the most frequent anti-WOD posters here.

Is it outside forces?..Those with power allowed both the corruption and drug trade to grow over the years,and one feeds the other

The dog has slipped it's leash,but the match ain't over yet

I edited the post a bit because I realized I needed to include domestic cartels, but I wonder what you'd say about our own efforts. We've had the War on Drugs for damn near 40 years now. Do we just suck that much at enforcing our own laws, or is the overwhelming strength behind a black market that we created enough to make continued drug trafficking to the tune of billions of dollars inevitable?

[twa]

The war on drugs is about as real as the war on poverty....more of a police action

[Hubbs]

The war on drugs is about as real as the war on poverty....more of a police action

Funny how I pay part of the roughly $40 billion a year (if my memory serves me correctly) to keep something that isn't even "real" going.

[rocazares]

No, Mexico isn't capable of that.

Jesus Christ, the heads of police officers are being sent to police stations, the government has called upon the military to fight the cartels, entire towns have dug ****ing trenches around their borders to trap dealers, and this many people really think Mexico just doesn't have enough gosh-darned political will on this one? Really?

We aren't capable even to erradicate one simple cartel's gang, trust me.

The goverment's reason to lie behind the curtains saying the war have high % of victory is simple, economy.

They lie. C'mon!!!! every ones knows in this place the law doesnt even exists any more.

If this rats said the true to the world a lot of economy projects will fall down in a blink. Like is already happen.

But that's irrelevant for the masses down here, they're struggling everyday trying to survive.

[Skin'Em84]

I love how the simple fact that Mexico failed is proof of the cause of Mexico's failure. Because no nation has ever fallen apart due to forces it couldn't control.

Point taken, but to say that the sole reason for Mexico's collapse is the US is about as ridiculous.

[Hubbs]

Point taken' date=' but to say that the sole reason for Mexico's collapse is the US is about as ridiculous.[/quote']

There are always additional factors contributing to complex problems. But ask yourself this: If the US didn't exist, do you really think Mexico would be a de facto cartel-run nation?

[mardi gras skin]

There are always additional factors contributing to complex problems. But ask yourself this: If the US didn't exist, do you really think Mexico would be a de facto cartel-run nation?

Why Mexico? Why isn't Canada failing? Are we as responsible for Canada's success as we are Mexico's failure?

[GoSkins561]

There are always additional factors contributing to complex problems. But ask yourself this: If the US didn't exist, do you really think Mexico would be a de facto cartel-run nation?

Yes, how many countries to the South of Mexico are "de facto cartel ran nations?

[SnyderShrugged]

so sad to see the impact of our failed WOD on Mexico.

[mardi gras skin]

The cartels are going to find ways to make money. If there isn't money in drugs (because its legal or because its too risky) there's always human trafficking.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2010/0830/Mexico-massacre-How-the-drug-war-is-pushing-cartels-into-human-trafficking

I've got some friends who help with people who have gotten free of human trafficking. They say this is where the up and coming money maker for the cartels.

[twa]

Well we can legalize that too

[SnyderShrugged]

The cartels are going to find ways to make money. If there isn't money in drugs (because its legal or because its too risky) there's always human trafficking.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2010/0830/Mexico-massacre-How-the-drug-war-is-pushing-cartels-into-human-trafficking

I've got some friends who help with people who have gotten free of human trafficking. They say this is where the up and coming money maker for the cartels.

Then lets end the WOD and have a war on trafficking!

[twa]

How about a compromise?...Open borders and execute drug users on the spot.

I'll throw in legalized prostitution as a sweetener.