CNN: Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 16

[visionary]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/23/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least 14 South Korean military personnel and two civilians, the Yonhap news agency reported.

Four of the military personnel were seriously injured, Yonhap said.

At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time, Yonhap said.

South Korea's military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.

The South Korean army also raised its alert condition, the report said.

Images of plumes of smoke were quickly broadcast on Yonhap television from the island of Yeonpyeong, but it was not immediately clear what the artillery had hit.

The island that was hit has a total of about 1,300 residents, a fisherman who lives on the island told Yonhap.

The South Korean government immediately called an emergency meeting of its security ministers.

The North Korean fire came as the South's military conducted routine drills in waters off the island.

This is getting ridiculous.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Ok as a 17 year old, I'm not in touch with international happenings so my question is ... " how concerned should this make me?"

[fullnelson9999]

Ok as a 17 year old, I'm not in touch with international happenings so my question is ... " how concerned should this make me?"

Who knows with these guys. It could end up being an isolated incident, or it could escalate into something bigger. We'll have to wait and see.

I will say that things have been a little too tense for my taste lately.

[aREDSKIN]

If one nets everything down isn't NK just a proxy for China??

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

If one nets everything down isn't NK just a proxy for China??

No. NK is kinda like China's **** up little brother who just does the dumbest **** and is a burden on the family and their very existence is nothing but a headache, but it's still family and they have history so they do what they can for him.

Outside of having that little buffer on their border that North Korea provides, I don't think that China really cares all that much about North Korea. Besides that, all they do for China is stick them in the middle of crap like this and pour starving, illegal NK immigrants into their country.

The Cold War is over. China has moved on to bigger and better things. NK is stuck in the past. They are like the last living fossil from the Cold War. Everyone else has moved on. Even Cuba is moving on. (Chavez is just a poseur.)

[JMS]

If one nets everything down isn't NK just a proxy for China??

We had a thread about this a few months ago. North Korea isn't a proxy for China. China is one of the few countries which has political swey with N. Korea, but N. Korea doesn't ask their permission.. What is driving this incident is

1. We just found out that N. Korea has built a second uranium enrichment facility and reniged on it's pledge to stop enriching plutoneum. A pledge the west paid deerly for. This casts in doubt all the aid the west has been giving N. Korea, aid N. Korea can not afford to give up.
   
2. South Korea just hosted the G-20 conference, a very prestegious event. That upset N. Korea because their economy is a basket case.
   
3. The leader of North Korea is politically weak. He's been sick and has started the transfer of power to his oldest son. Which means the leadership there is in flux. It's a chance for some of the generals to get out of line and try to score points in their own bid to amass power before Kim Il Jong's son is fully installed in power.
   

On the I'm worried scale 0 being camolot style peace and 10 being full out nuclear war; this is like a six or a seven. N. Korea is a nutty country with the second largest military in the world. ( Russia is first, South Korea is third and the United States is 8th. )

This could easily turn into a blood bath and would definitely suck us and likely China into it. North Korea has it's own nuclear weapons stockpile too. It has tested delivery systems capable of targeting American cities too.

On a bright note... N. Korea has tens of thousands of artilery tubes facing Seul, the most densly populated part of S. Korea. That's a bright note because N. Korea hasn't shelled the city. It means this thing still might be containable. They've shelled a small isolated island, and S Korea returned fire.

If N. Korea escalates and shells Seul, I think all the gloves come off. Until that happens I think their is still hope to put the cork back in this bottle.

[JMS]

The Cold War is over. China has moved on to bigger and better things. NK is stuck in the past. They are like the last living fossil from the Cold War. Everyone else has moved on. Even Cuba is moving on. (Chavez is just a poseur.)

Everything you said is true. but this part is unclear to me. China got involved in the Korean war in the 1950's to deny the United States a military base directly on her boarders. Something Moa deemed as an existencial threat to China. You're right that N. Korea is a huge hassle to China. I'm not sure however if China would accept South Korea and the United States absorbing N. Korea without again interceeding though... China has it's own powerful whackadoodle generals to deel with. Where they, and she comes down on this is entirely unclear.

You are right though, economically China would be idiots to challenge the west. We buy all her stuff. It's just that the economic leadership and the military leadership in china don't always discuss things, and the military leadership has shown themselves very willing to throw around their clout and complicate delicate political confrontations with the west in the passed.

Also today N. Korea has nuclear weapons of their own, along with sophisticated delivery systems... "sophisticated" for them anyway. The Chinese deterant which Truman delicately tip toed around in the 1950's is today in N. Korea's possession.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

North Korea isn't going to do anything. They are just feeling lonely in a world that has passed them by so they scream for attention whenever they can.

We thought for years that the Soviets were just fanatical and crazy enough to end the world. But everyone wants to live, i.e. mutual assured destruction. This is the same thing on a smaller scale. North Korea won't do anything because they want to exist and South Korea isn't going to do anything because NK will wipe Seoul off the map within the first 10 minutes. China won't do anything because they're too busy becoming a world power and we won't do anything because we don't want **** with China. In the end, everyone screams and gets scared and then life goes on.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Everything you said is true. but this part is unclear to me. China got involved in the Korean war in the 1950's to deny the United States a military base directly on her boarders. Something Moa deemed as an existencial threat to China. You're right that N. Korea is a huge hassle to China. I'm not sure however if China would accept South Korea and the United States absorbing N. Korea without again interceeding though... China has it's own powerful whackadoodle generals to deel with. Where they, and she comes down on this is entirely unclear.

Also today N. Korea has nuclear weapons of their own, along with sophisticated delivery systems... "sophisticated" for them anyway. The Chinese deterant which Truman delicately tip toed around in the 1950's is today in N. Korea's possession.

Oh I doubt China would be happy about the unification of the Korean peninsula. But if it naturally occurs, I don't think they go to war over it. It's not the existential threat that it once was. Kinda like Taiwan isn't the big deal it used to be. Now if it comes down to shots being fired and a forced unification I'm not sure what would happen.

Though I gotta say, I don't know that South Korea would even want to absorb North Korea. That country is a disaster. I can't imagine them wanting to be responsible for the people there. I'm sure they want nothing more in life than a different regime/government that stops posing a threat, but I'm not sure they'd want complete unification.

[JMS]

North Korea isn't going to do anything. They are just feeling lonely in a world that has passed them by so they scream for attention whenever they can.

We thought for years that the Soviets were just fanatical and crazy enough to end the world. But everyone wants to live, i.e. mutual assured destruction. This is the same thing on a smaller scale. North Korea won't do anything because they want to exist and South Korea isn't going to do anything because NK will wipe Seoul off the map within the first 10 minutes. China won't do anything because they're too busy becoming a world power and we won't do anything because we don't want **** with China. In the end, everyone screams and gets scared and then life goes on.

True, but this is like the guns of october. North Korea and the South are nvolved in an artilery duel. Right now that's isolated to a remote island. Soon however somebody will gain the upper hand in that battle. When that occurs the artillery duel could spread. If that spreads to Seol, then the Rubicon has been crossed. It will be out of everybodies hands. It will be an all out war between North and South and that will draw in the US, and likely China.

That's how wars start. They just get out of hand.

[Veretax]

I think the answer is simple, if NK starts a ware, get the chinese to let us use their ground to stage an attack from the north, and when we conquer/liberate NK have China, SK, the US, and perhaps Russia sit on a panel of some kind to help rebuild their society like we did in Iraq. Once civil governance has returned we can get out of the peninsula and stop worrying. Setup a treaty with China ahead of time stipulating then when its all done a new NK will be put together, and the peninsula remains divided.

[ixcuincle]

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-korea-shelling-react-20101123,0,3289455.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews+%28L.A.+Times+-+Top+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Seoul residents expressed growing alarm late Tuesday after a deadly North Korean artillery attack on a South Korean island, leading many to try to make sense of Pyongyang's latest provocation.

"It has finally come to this, the very day we all feared," said Douglas Shin, a Seoul activist. "This is real confrontation. If it goes a few notches higher, I'm worried that cooler heads will not prevail, and that there will be no point for standing down."

As South Korean President Lee Myung-bak and his security chiefs huddled in an underground bunker to devise a response, several academics and former lawmakers called for caution.

"Civilian casualty is of grave concern and the Seoul government should firmly denounce the North's action," said Chung Young-chul, a professor at Sogang University's Graduate School of Public Policy. "Having said that, South Korea shouldn't react emotionally, and further conflict should be avoided. We're not yet sure of the exact cause of the provocation."

[aREDSKIN]

Here's a nother view

In fact, the Chinese government has consistently defended Pyongyang from punishment by America and the international community. Beijing has more leverage over North Korea than any other state, yet is unwilling to use it. The U.S. has been negotiating with Pyongyang for 15 years under three different administrations. The whole time, China persistently has done its best to dilute UN sanctions and bog down negotiations.

Meanwhile, Beijing possesses the tools to wipe out Kim Jong Il in a week.

China supplies North Korea with about 90 percent of its oil, 80 percent of its consumer goods and roughly 40 percent of its food. It is Pyongyang’s largest military supplier, and its closest friend and strongest defender in the UN Security Council and other international organizations. “If it weren’t for the Chinese,” wrote author Gordon Chang recently, “there would be no North Korean missile program, no North Korean nuclear program and no North Korea.”

So why does China keep North Korea alive?

http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=6246.4679.0.0

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

1) It provides a buffer on their border

2) China doesn't want millions of half-starved North Koreans pouring over their border if North Korea fails

3) History, politics, **** measuring contest with the US and whatever else

Do you have another explanation?

And there is a difference between supporting a country and using a country as a proxy.

JMS, I gotta run but I'm gonna get back to you on the Guns of August (not October btw) thing when I can, maybe sometime tonight. I'd love to talk WWI with someone on here.

[AsburySkinsFan]

First the sinking of the SK ship, then the nuclear revelation and now this...Kim Jong is pushing his luck.

[KingGibbs]

My wife is going to be sick to her stomach. Our son will be stationed in Korea Dec 8th. He'll be in Camp Humphries.

[Boss_Hogg]

My wife is going to be sick to her stomach. Our son will be stationed in Korea Dec 8th. He'll be in Camp Humphries.

whoa, I'm sorry to hear that. Please send my regards to your son for his service and sacrifice.

[twa]

My wife is going to be sick to her stomach. Our son will be stationed in Korea Dec 8th. He'll be in Camp Humphries.

Nothing quite like fearing for your child and the helplessness..... this is not likely to escalate much and there are certainly more hazardous posts though.

I know that doesn't help,but you have plenty of company.

[Madison Redskin]

Has anyone else read North Korea's press release about this incident? It says something like, "In response to the treacherous puppet government's evil behavior, the glorious and magnificent defenders of freedom in the North Korean army struck a death blow to the traitors in the South." What kind of government drafts press releases like that? It's like they went to the Fox News School of Exaggeration, Deceit and Oversimplification.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's like they went to the Fox News School of Exaggeration, Deceit and Oversimplification.

In defense of Faux News even they aren't as bad as Kim Jong Il's ilk.

Now I need a shower.

[Mickalino]

May want to update the title - 2 SK Marines are dead

[SkinInsite]

Lovely, this business trip for Seoul is looking better and better.

[Kilmer17]

I bet we send them a strongly worded letter.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I bet we send them a strongly worded letter.

What do you think we should do then Kilmer? Kim Jong has been baiting us for months, what's your plan?

[The Sisko]

In defense of Faux News even they aren't as bad as Kim Jong Il's ilk.

Well, I'd say it's a push. Faux News wins on grammar but Kim wins on factual accuracy.

Seriously, I have to wonder how long China's desire to keep poor, hungry N. Koreans in N. Korea continues to win out over their desire to maintain stability and preserve their business interests. As is the case with us, and the S. Koreans, I have to think their patience has to be wearing awfully thin with their effed up "little brother". Eventually even the historical "family ties" won't be enough and "big brother" will decide that he's merely enabling dysfunctional behavior. Let's hope that happens before something bad goes down rather than after. As previously mentioned, N. Korea doesn't stand much of a chance but they can sure as heck kill a lot of people in the process.