Skin'emAlive Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I never really liked Gay, but i wouldnt be upset with him coming here because i dont think we can create a desirable location for free agents in 2014 with a poor product. However, if we trade Crawford or the 1st this year for him, i will be upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I respect your detailed write up but I guess we are going have too agree too disagree. Your comparing Ves and Noel offensive skill set and completely leaving out that Noel is a great defender and rebounder. Noel also finishes around the rim like no other with put backs and dunks, Vess is too small too do that. Ves is what he is at this point IMO and Noel is still developing. Noel's touch around the basket is not good IMO. He can dunk but even just a foot from the rim and he struggles. He just doesn't have the shooting touch. Also you've got to acknowledge that Noel is a good defender at the college level but it will be a whole different animal in the NBA. There is no certainty he will be any good at defense in the NBA for four or five years from now. Look how long it took Dwight and Chandler to become great defenders. Chandler was probably on his third team by the time he got it figured out. He's also a good, not great rebounder. He has good instincts and good hands and he's a pogo stick and can get a lot of offensive boards. But he's not a dominant rebounder who cleans up the defensive glass. First off, he's not very strong, and his body has years to go before he will fill out. Second, he doesn't have the instincts and quickness Anthony Davis did to make up for his lack of strength. Davis was weak too, maybe even weaker, but he outrebounded Noel despite the fact he played on a much better team with much better rebounders to compete for numbers with like MKG and Terrence Jones. The tools Nerlens has: quick feet, great hops, length, hands, IQ, the ability to come up with steals playing passing lanes, see the floor and put passes on the money and facilitate the offense, clean up on the offensive glass for putbacks, catch oops, block shots and play above the rim, cover a lot of space on defense. Those are the same core tools as Vesely. And the weaknesses he has--lack of handles, lack of a shot, lack of strength, no go to scoring ability. Those are the same key weaknesses as Vesely. The main differences are Nerlens does have higher upside and is a somewhat rich man's Ves because he is a more coordinated athlete and has a better frame and he is a better rebounder. But there are also things he does worse than Ves. He has worse shooting touch and is a worse shooter with almost no range. He has no ability to play on the perimeter and Ves actually played on the perimeter in Europe. There isn't nearly as much difference between them as you claim. They have very similar future roles in the NBA. The difference in their value is basically that Ves was a 6th overall pick in a weak year and Nerlens will probably be a top 3 pick in a mediocre year. Not that big a difference. Also Ves is a 22 year old big with less than 100 games under his belt. He's the same age as Wall. He is definitely not finished growing or developing. His body hasn't even filled out yet, probably won't for a couple years. Big men usually take 4-6 years to become what they are going to be in the NBA and Ves has years before he reaches that threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Id be willing to give up Ariza, Seraphin, Ves, Singleton, and maybe Booker for him. Webster should stay, Martin is cheap, and Crawford is a 6th man. Okafor is a great backup Center. So i would keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBash Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Guys, it's 2013. If the Wizards want to get Gay, well then let them get Gay. I won't judge them. I'm open to anything and very accepting. The 2013-2014 season could be a coming out season for the Wizards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 You mean two more years... and if the deal includes Okafor than its not even a 3 million dollar hit next season. Gay's contract carries over into 2015 as a max hit that season. That's the problem. We need to have the decks cleared by the summer of 2014 IMO. Not only is that the year that we have to negotiate with our 2010 players (currently four of them), that's also potentially the greatest free agent class in league history. And it's the year the new luxury tax goes into effect. It's going to be a landscape altering summer, maybe even more so than 2010 was. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the expiring contracts you want to have are the ones like Okafor's. You want them to be coming off the books for that summer. Oak's expiring deal should be extremely valuable next year. You're going to have teams wanting to clear their books to avoid the luxury tax. And you're going to have teams that want to clear their books to make a push for the premier FAs that summer. Gay's deal expires one year too late. Summer of 2014 is also when we can make a big bid for DeMarcus Cousins. It's the first year and probably the last year for a long time we could get Cousins without having to trade for him. I would rather have a chance to get Cousins than have Gay. I'd rather have a drafted SF like Shabazz than Gay. Gay is a terrible contract. And that article saying he's a borderline All Star is like saying Kawhi Leonard is a borderline All Star. Gay would never, ever sniff an All Star game in any year Carmelo and LeBron are healthy. The difference between them and Gay is enormous. ---------- Post added January-13th-2013 at 11:25 PM ---------- Id be willing to give up Ariza' date=' Seraphin, Ves, Singleton, and maybe Booker for him. Webster should stay, Martin is cheap, and Crawford is a 6th man. Okafor is a great backup Center. So i would keep him.[/quote']Okafor or Nene almost certainly have to be part of any deal for Gay because of the contracts. Okafor's contract is the only one that makes sense. We'd be morons to trade Nene for Gay. That would of course be trading one big contract for an even worse one, trading big for small, AND giving up the superior player for a downgrade in the process. To not trade Okafor in the deal, you'd have to get a third team involved which complicates things immensely. 3 team deals are unreliable. ---------- Post added January-13th-2013 at 11:30 PM ---------- Guys, it's 2013. If the Wizards want to get Gay, well then let them get Gay. I won't judge them. I'm open to anything and very accepting. The 2013-2014 season could be a coming out season for the Wizards I think Gay could be a decent player here and I'm usually in favor of putting solid veterans who can play around Wall. But Gay's contract is a huge problem IMO. It's going to be seriously hard to cobble a team together around his deal and Nene's. If you've got those two you've got 0 flexibility for years. You can be sure that our only avenue for improvement from that point on would be the internal development of our current group of players and the draft. And if you believe we'll improve, the draft will no longer be a realistic avenue of improvement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yea, but are we going to be picking up the first overall pick this year? Even with our wizard ways, i highly doubt we get another 1st. Its going to the Kings, or wait... Seattle.... Actually i can guarandamntee that if Seattle gets the Kings, they get the first overall. And since we wont be getting that first pick, we arent getting Shabazz. But you are correct that we would be handicapped for years with the Gay acquisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuposse87 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Apparently memphis wanted Beal...if Ernie gave them Beal...I probably would have an aneurysm. Trading for gay is essentially conceding that we won't be getting Cousins in 2014. I also think the crowd that thinks we're gonna get Shabazz might be ahead of themselves...While I love the notion of having Shabazz at SF...we actually look like a semi-competent team with Wall back in the lineup. He might push us to the 5-8th spot in the pecking order. I don't think Gay is the best fit for the lineup...but I could understand the notion of going after him, in that...he is an above average SF who is massively overpaid. There are ways to interpret a feasible way for him to come here. At most, I'd offer Crawford+Vesely+Ariza+filler+a top 7 protected 1st. Wall/Price Beal/Temple Gay/Webster Nene/Booker Emeka/Seraphin While resigning wall wouldn't be a problem, having a complimentary big man for Nene in '14 and beyond would be difficult. Okafor would be expiring which is fine as most of his money would be going to Wall but if Seraphin, or any other Big man we may want, begins to turn the corner we probably wouldn't be able to make a play for him unless we can Treat Gay's last year of his contract as an expiring for a mid tier team that is willing to off some talent for salary relief...like ourselves...and the cycle continues...**** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) Maybe I haven't watched him enough, but am I the only one who thinks that Gay's best days are behind him? Even if he didn't have the monster contract, I'm not sure I'd want him just from I see from an on the court perspective. I just think that money can be better spent rather than catching a player who may be on his way down. Apparently memphis wanted Beal...if Ernie gave them Beal...I probably would have an aneurysm. Trading for gay is essentially conceding that we won't be getting Cousins in 2014. I also think the crowd that thinks we're gonna get Shabazz might be ahead of themselves...While I love the notion of having Shabazz at SF...we actually look like a semi-competent team with Wall back in the lineup. He might push us to the 5-8th spot in the pecking order. I don't think Gay is the best fit for the lineup...but I could understand the notion of going after him, in that...he is an above average SF who is massively overpaid. There are ways to interpret a feasible way for him to come here. At most, I'd offer Crawford+Vesely+Ariza+filler+a top 7 protected 1st. I would lose it if he included Beal in a deal for Gay. I'd be fine with giving up Crawford/Vesely/Ariza & top 7 protected pick. I wouldn't touch any 2014 picks though. Edited January 14, 2013 by StillUnknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Maybe I haven't watched him enough, but am I the only one who thinks that Gay's best days are behind him? Even if he didn't have the monster contract, I'm not sure I'd want him just from I see from an on the court perspective.I just think that money can be better spent rather than catching a player who may be on his way down. Well he definitely isn't as good this year as he was the past two. That's why Memphis wants to deal him in the first place. There are a lot of reasons not to make this deal. None of us really want this and all of us want to improve through acquiring vet talent. I would lose it if he included Beal in a deal for Gay. I'd be fine with giving up Crawford/Vesely/Ariza & top 7 protected pick. I wouldn't touch any 2014 picks though. I think I would probably turn in my fan card if they traded Beal for Gay. But I'd also be shocked if they did. They wouldn't give Beal up for Harden, a massively better player than Gay. They must value Beal extremely high. If it's true Memphis asked for him, I'm actually pretty shocked out how ****ing greedy they are. That would have drawn a "go **** yourself" response from me and an end to negotiation. That's massively overplaying their hand. I think Crawford Ves and Ariza plus a draft pick is a lot to give up for him too. Memphis's goal here is salary relief. We'd be giving them that, plus cheap young talent, plus a draft pick. In return we'd be getting a mediocre vet in a down year with a horrible contract. It's too much. Emeka Okafor is a better contract than Gay is this year: big man having a better season with less money and one less year on his deal. An Okafor for Gay deal straight up means we actually lose in the trade. We just should not be offering any draft picks as part of a deal for Gay. We need to be coming out even (or only a little worse than even considering our handicap). Also top seven protection is going to put us in a weird place. We could very well improve, but I still think we're a lock to pick in the top seven this year. That means the 2014 pick would be in play. I don't think we could go for even greater protection on 2014, but we'd want it because that class looks a lot better and you will be getting good players at the seventh or eighth picks. Maybe we make a leap next year and pick outside the lottery and it's all moot. But this is the Wizards. You absolutely can not take that chance. If we traded a 2014 pick that would be the year we won the lottery and Memphis comes away with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker. We just shouldn't make this deal unless it's for players we already have not named Wall, Beal, or Nene. We really shouldn't be making it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkSoULjA Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) People are selling Rudy Gay short, hes a very very good player and he is getting paid about what hes worth. I would trade Nene for him in a second, Nene has serious injury issues and I just don't trust too last hes in and out the line up. Talent for talent they are even great character guys one is often injured the other missed about than 30 games in his 7 year career. Don't trade big for small but in this case I will do it, then we draft Noel and we are on the right track. The guy is only 26 and people say his best days are behind him, he will be a 17 to 20 point scorer for another 4 years easy. And if its for Okafur and our draft pick I will do it as well, if we can protect that pick top 3 then hell where do I sign. Edited January 14, 2013 by SiCkSoULjA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Rudy Gay is NOT a good player. He underperforms, is overpaid, and you can make a case that he's past his prime. What you see with Rudy Gay is what you get. With that being said...prepare yourself for Grunfeld doing something REALLY stupid. For example, the Griz have entertained the Washington Wizards' offer for Gay. The crux of that exchange would have the Griz receiving rookie shooting guard Bradley Beal in a larger package. http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/jan/13/memphis-grizzlies-management-remains-mum-as-blow/?partner=RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I love Rudy Gay. Been following him since he was drafted. He is not the player he used to be and I am pretty sure coming here would have made things worst for him... I didn't comment on the game from Saturday night, but all I have to say is that by watching Wall on the court, it just shows you how bad you need a superstar to win in the NBA. That's why the Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls have all the rings. They had Superstars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 The Raptors supposedly offered Jose Calderon and Ed Davis for Gay and that was "offering the most" before we apparently jumped into the fray... That's a weak offer. Why do I get the feeling there is really no big time market for Gay and we'd be bidding mostly against ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Everything I read on this trade says John Wall and Bradley Beal are off limits in this trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Rudy Gay is NOT a good player. He underperforms, is overpaid, and you can make a case that he's past his prime. What you see with Rudy Gay is what you get. With that being said...prepare yourself for Grunfeld doing something REALLY stupid. http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/jan/13/memphis-grizzlies-management-remains-mum-as-blow/?partner=RSS If we include Beal, Grunfeld should be dragged into the street and beaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkSoULjA Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) If we include Beal, Grunfeld should be dragged into the street and beaten. No way we include Beal so dont trip Edited January 14, 2013 by SiCkSoULjA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 It's not about next year. It means they crush the cap for the 2014 free agent class which is supposed to be the best in years. I would guess they if they are serious about trying to get Rudy Gay that management wants him to be apart of the long term and not just for the next two years. This team sucks and they are eliminating future flexibility. Free agent classes rarely mean as much as the hype would imply. The salary cap kicks in next season and we screwed that up with Okariza. Gay is one year longer and with him this team might stop being a massive joke. Certainly better than adding more not-so-great draft picks to a team that can ill afford to get younger. Wall Beal Gay Nene That's a team that can at least lure a decent coach or GM and win enough games for fan to not feel tremendous shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 we'd be bidding mostly against ourselves? Ernie has been doing that since he's taken over. FA contracts or trades. Prepare to be housed in this trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 People are selling Rudy Gay short, hes a very very good player and he is getting paid about what hes worth. I would trade Nene for him in a second, Nene has serious injury issues and I just don't trust too last hes in and out the line up. Talent for talent they are even great character guys one is often injured the other missed about than 30 games in his 7 year career. Don't trade big for small but in this case I will do it, then we draft Noel and we are on the right track. The guy is only 26 and people say his best days are behind him, he will be a 17 to 20 point scorer for another 4 years easy.And if its for Okafur and our draft pick I will do it as well, if we can protect that pick top 3 then hell where do I sign. I don't think Gay matches Nene talent for talent. Nene is better IMO. He makes a big impact in all parts of the game and Gay is mostly just a scorer. Nene is a lot more efficient than Gay too. He doesn't make bad plays. He's also a true big man that occupies a lot of space. Plus Nene isn't as expensive as Gay. If you deal Nene, you create a big hole in the front court that's going to very hard to fill. We don't have bangers outside Nene. Oak doesn't have his strength and Seraphin is too soft to replace Nene. Nah you just can't trade Nene for Gay. You need to get a true big man back for any deal involving Nene to replace him. Gay is overpaid. He's usually about a 20 ppg but he doesn't do it with efficiency like the other All Star guys and Gay is a max contract with three years left. He's also having a down year so far. Okafor has actually been outplaying Gay this year all things considered and he's got a better contract. If you trade Okafor, you don't need to be putting draft picks into the deal. Deal Okafor and a young player we already have. I would deal Okafor and Singleton + Booker. That's a fair offer for Memphis considering the risk we're taking back in Gay's contract and the cap relief Memphis would be getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave25 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/21554672/report-bradley-beal-discussed-in-rudy-gay-trade-talks Fire Grunfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I don't see why Memphis would want any expensive big guys in return in a straight up deal which would mean any deal would almost certainly involve Beal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Free agent classes rarely mean as much as the hype would imply. The salary cap kicks in next season and we screwed that up with Okariza. Gay is one year longer and with him this team might stop being a massive joke. Certainly better than adding more not-so-great draft picks to a team that can ill afford to get younger. Wall Beal Gay Nene That's a team that can at least lure a decent coach or GM and win enough games for fan to not feel tremendous shame. That's a pretty good core. But how do you get Gay without doing something bad? Also I might be wrong, but I thought the new salary cap taxes started the summer of 2014, so going into the 2014/2015 season rather than next year. If you can trade for Gay without giving up Beal, Nene, or the draft pick, then you can potentially build something special. Assuming John makes the leap of course. PG: Wall SG: Beal SF: Gay PF/C: Nene PF/C: high draft pick--Nerlens, Zeller, Len, Bennett. Gotta be a big man and gotta be someone who can rebound IMO. That's a really strong starting five, it's young for the most part, and it would have a ton of upside. Then you just pare down the role players to a handful of key guys and you've got your good 8-10 man rotation: - Crawford - Martell - Seraphin - Vesely/Booker/Singleton - backup PG ---------- Post added January-14th-2013 at 12:19 PM ---------- I don't see why Memphis would want any expensive big guys in return in a straight up deal which would mean any deal would almost certainly involve Beal. Because they are trying to get out of Gay's awful contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Because they are trying to get out of Gay's awful contract. I get that, but it's only for one more year than what they would get back from the Wiz. More importantly, they will need someone in return that they think can fill some of the scoring void left by Rudy Gay. It just doesn't make sense for them to do a straight up deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuposse87 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Ok, first thing, these Gay reports are coming from Memphis sources...I want to say it is mostly them overinflating his value and simply lying that we'd entertain such a scenario but we do have EG leading the way....so I am currently, scared ****less. Gay is essentially a 6'8 Crawford. It isn't like he's going to catapult us into the playoffs, or that he has a large enough following where he'd fill the seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I get that, but it's only for one more year than what they would get back from the Wiz. More importantly, they will need someone in return that they think can fill some of the scoring void left by Rudy Gay. It just doesn't make sense for them to do a straight up deal. It wouldn't be straight up most likely because we'd probably still have to add one more small contract just to make the deals match. Gay is that expensive. Bottom line, they'd be getting a guy who is playing better, is a big man, is cheaper, and has one year less on their deal + change. Memphis has proven they can play well without Gay too. Also the one year makes a huge difference given the luxury tax penalties kicking in summer of 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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