The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Destino]

And Boston's. And San Antonio'. Teams of legit 3 all star construction win.

If Harden isn't at least on Bosh's level, then he's not worth a top 3 pick.

If the choice for them is between Harden and Ibaka, why is it even close? Ibaka is not special. Supposedly Harden is. Strapping yourself to keep Ibaka seems like the foolish move. Especially if it means letting a 6th man of the year walk. The Thunder are trying to build like San Antonio, and that is not what San Antonio would do. The only way you let Harden go is to replace him with a potential All Star big. Perkins and Ibaka are the weak links in their group.

Boston's over the hill gang can't be compared to three superstars in their prime. San Antonio has not had anything close to three superstars, and I happen to really like Parker and Manu, but let's not lose our minds.

As for the top 3 pick, I've said it before other than Drummond and Davis this draft looks like a role player draft to me. I don't see Beal, MKG, or TRob likely becoming superstars. Harden fills a huge need and bring credibility to a franchise needing it desperately. Plus this looks a lot better with Harden in there:

Wall / Mack

Harden / Crawford / Martin

Ariza / Singleton / Vesely / Martin

Nene / Booker / Vesely

Okafor / Seraphin

[RonArtest15]

Boston's over the hill gang can't be compared to three superstars in their prime. San Antonio has not had anything close to three superstars, and I happen to really like Parker and Manu, but let's not lose our minds.

As for the top 3 pick, I've said it before other than Drummond and Davis this draft looks like a role player draft to me. I don't see Beal, MKG, or TRob likely becoming superstars. Harden fills a huge need and bring credibility to a franchise needing it desperately. Plus this looks a lot better with Harden in there:

Wall / Mack

Harden / Crawford / Martin

Ariza / Singleton / Vesely / Martin

Nene / Booker / Vesely

Okafor / Seraphin

I love that lineup. I've said it before...but James Harden is WELL worth the #3 pick this year. I'd like to think that Sam Presti is too smart to make a trade like this. However, if the opportunity presents itself, the Wizards should be all over it.

[Going Commando]

Boston's over the hill gang can't be compared to three superstars in their prime. San Antonio has not had anything close to three superstars, and I happen to really like Parker and Manu, but let's not lose our minds.

Why does it have to be three superstars? Nobody in the league has that, Bosh certainly isn't one. The Lakers are the only team that comes close to that kind of firepower.

Three all stars gets the job done though, and San Antonio certainly has that--and has had that for years. It's also been almost five years now since the big 3 came together in Boston. They've had a tremendous run--one championship, one should have been a championship but it got away, and another 7 game ECF appearance. That's just with three all stars who are undoubtedly past their prime.

The three all star construction definitely works. IMO OKC is on the cusp of having a potent three star lineup the way they're constructed. Durant is a LeBron caliber superstar, Westbrook is an elite player who is on the cusp of Superstar status, and James Harden is a bit of a poor man's Manu, a fringe all star who will make it during the right year.

To me if it comes down to a choice between keeping Harden or keeping Serge Ibaka, it's crazy to pick Ibaka over Harden. Harden is simply a much better player and they just spent a 3rd overall pick to get him. Ibaka is a two trick pony. He finishes well and he blocks shots. He's a below average rebounder and defender for his position, and he's got a mediocre jumper but no post game and less offensive creativity and ISO scoring ability than JaVale McGee had. He's the definition of the mediocre NBA starter/complimentary role player.

If money is a problem, why not go shopping in the bargain bin for a Marcus Camby or Kenyon Martin looking to piggyback on a contender than overpay for Ibaka? Then you get to keep Harden and you probably improve defensively outright.

I OKC deals Harden to cut costs to keep Ibaka to me that demonstrates a telling lack of faith in Harden. If OKC is so in love with Beal that they'd deal Harden for him, then that's also a very telling move. Perhaps we should be looking to take the guy OKC is so interested in, rather than the guy they're trying to dump to get him... We don't need to be playing behind the curve here.

As for the top 3 pick, I've said it before other than Drummond and Davis this draft looks like a role player draft to me. I don't see Beal, MKG, or TRob likely becoming superstars. Harden fills a huge need and bring credibility to a franchise needing it desperately. Plus this looks a lot better with Harden in there:

Wall / Mack

Harden / Crawford / Martin

Ariza / Singleton / Vesely / Martin

Nene / Booker / Vesely

Okafor / Seraphin

Harden is a nice guy but I feel like he's a flavor of the month player that's being extremely overrated based on one solid year of being the third wheel on a great team, and because of the fact he doesn't have much of a history (devil you don't know). Would people here be OK with trading the third overall pick for someone like Stephen Jackson?

Edited June 28, 2012 by stevemcqueen1

[Hersh]

I cannot understand why the media and some of our fans want to take Beal. Unless he is an unstoppable shooter, I can't see wasting a top 3 pick on a guy who can't light up the nets.

Because by just about all accounts he can light up the nets, plus he is a good defender. The Wizards need a SG and taking the consensus best one in the draft is a great move. Ernie also put the Wiz in a box with his pre-draft trade for Ariza and Okafor which is why some on this board have smartly wondered why that trade needed to happen before we knew who we were getting in the draft. Frankly, if we miss out on Beal, it's a total failure again for Ernie cause no matter how they spin it, that's who the trade set us up to get. Claiming Harrison barnes is somehow a SG is nothing but spin and even Barnes doesn't want to be a SG.

[Going Commando]

I think OKC is looking at Beal because he's an eventual starter for their team whereas they're unsure if Harden ever will be/if he's worth the money to keep around. Beal probably gives them 90% of Harden's offense while being a big improvement on defense and on the glass. If that's the case, then you don't have to rely so heavily on Thabo Sefalosha to guard the perimeter.

[RonArtest15]

Why does it have to be three superstars? Nobody in the league has that, Bosh certainly isn't one. The Lakers are the only team that comes close to that kind of firepower.

Three all stars gets the job done though, and San Antonio certainly has that--and has had that for years. It's also been almost five years now since the big 3 came together in Boston. They've had a tremendous run--one championship, one should have been a championship but it got away, and another 7 game ECF appearance. That's just with three all stars who are undoubtedly past their prime.

The three all star construction definitely works. IMO OKC is on the cusp of having a potent three star lineup the way they're constructed. Durant is a LeBron caliber superstar, Westbrook is an elite player who is on the cusp of Superstar status, and James Harden is a bit of a poor man's Manu, a fringe all star who will make it during the right year.

To me if it comes down to a choice between keeping Harden or keeping Serge Ibaka, it's crazy to pick Ibaka over Harden. Harden is simply a much better player and they just spent a 3rd overall pick to get him. Ibaka is a two trick pony. He finishes well and he blocks shots. He's a below average rebounder and defender for his position, and he's got a mediocre jumper but no post game and less offensive creativity and ISO scoring ability than JaVale McGee had. He's the definition of the mediocre NBA starter/complimentary role player.

If money is a problem, why not go shopping in the bargain bin for a Marcus Camby or Kenyon Martin looking to piggyback on a contender than overpay for Ibaka? Then you get to keep Harden and you probably improve defensively outright.

I OKC deals Harden to cut costs to keep Ibaka to me that demonstrates a telling lack of faith in Harden. If OKC is so in love with Beal that they'd deal Harden for him, then that's also a very telling move. Perhaps we should be looking to take the guy OKC is so interested in, rather than the guy they're trying to dump to get him... We don't need to be playing behind the curve here.

Harden is a nice guy but I feel like he's a flavor of the month player that's being extremely overrated based on one solid year of being the third wheel on a great team, and because of the fact he doesn't have much of a history (devil you don't know). Would people here be OK with trading the third overall pick for someone like Stephen Jackson?

SM, you're ignoring the fact that Harden is a 3rd year pro, who has gotten better EVERY year. He's 22 and would fill and immediate need for us at the 2. He had a bad Finals, and I think his performance vs. Miami is clouding the judgement of a lot of people. He's well worth giving up the #3 pick. This isn't a role player in the mold of Mike Miller or Randy Foye. Or an over-the hill vet...this is a player who hasn't scratched the surface of his potential and has the ability to be one of, if not THE best SG in the NBA in due time. I really think highly of Harden and we'd be foolish not to nab him if he is actually made available by OKC>

[Hersh]

Harden is a nice guy but I feel like he's a flavor of the month player that's being extremely overrated based on one solid year of being the third wheel on a great team, and because of the fact he doesn't have much of a history (devil you don't know). Would people here be OK with trading the third overall pick for someone like Stephen Jackson?

You must be bored to ask a question like that. Harden is only 22 years old, has gotten better every year in the league and just averaged 17 points on just 10 shots per game. If Harden is available for the #3 pick, it's the biggest no-brainer of the night.

---------- Post added June-28th-2012 at 02:26 PM ----------

SM, you're ignoring the fact that Harden is a 3rd year pro, who has gotten better EVERY year. He's 22 and would fill and immediate need for us at the 2. He had a bad Finals, and I think his performance vs. Miami is clouding the judgement of a lot of people. He's well worth giving up the #3 pick. This isn't a role player in the mold of Mike Miller or Randy Foye. Or an over-the hill vet...this is a player who hasn't scratched the surface of his potential and has the ability to be one of, if not THE best SG in the NBA in due time. I really think highly of Harden and we'd be foolish not to nab him if he is actually made available by OKC>

You beat me to it. I failed to mention that he is the kind of player that can create his own shot which this team desperately needs.

[StillUnknown]

You must be bored to ask a question like that. Harden is only 22 years old, has gotten better every year in the league and just averaged 17 points on just 10 shots per game. If Harden is available for the #3 pick, it's the biggest no-brainer of the night.

Gotta agree with this.

SM, I like your analysis, even when I don't agree, but I really think you're over-thinking this Harden situation.

Edited June 28, 2012 by StillUnknown

[pjfootballer]

Because by just about all accounts he can light up the nets, plus he is a good defender. The Wizards need a SG and taking the consensus best one in the draft is a great move. Ernie also put the Wiz in a box with his pre-draft trade for Ariza and Okafor which is why some on this board have smartly wondered why that trade needed to happen before we knew who we were getting in the draft. Frankly, if we miss out on Beal, it's a total failure again for Ernie cause no matter how they spin it, that's who the trade set us up to get. Claiming Harrison barnes is somehow a SG is nothing but spin and even Barnes doesn't want to be a SG.

By all accounts? Either he can or he can't light up the nets. I don't want potential or maybe and I don't want another Calbert Cheaney. I'd rather trade for Harden or go with some sort of trade scenerio with Portland for the 6/11 combination. I'd take Barnes at 6, at least he's proven he can shoot.

[Hersh]

By all accounts? Either he can or he can't light up the nets. I don't want potential or maybe and I don't want another Calbert Cheaney. I'd rather trade for Harden or go with some sort of trade scenerio with Portland for the 6/11 combination. I'd take Barnes at 6, at least he's proven he can shoot.

I'd take Harden over everyone else we might get also, but Beal averaged 15 ppg on 10.6 shots per game as a true freshman. I'm not sure how you can say you don't want potential and at the same time advocate trading down for the 6 and 11 pick.

[RonArtest15]

By all accounts? Either he can or he can't light up the nets. I don't want potential or maybe and I don't want another Calbert Cheaney. I'd rather trade for Harden or go with some sort of trade scenerio with Portland for the 6/11 combination. I'd take Barnes at 6, at least he's proven he can shoot.

It's a good point you bring up.

Harden = ESTABLISHED NBA player...fringe all-star...6th man of the year.

Beal/MKG/Barnes/Robinson = potential...but, unknown as to how they'll fare.

At least w. Harden, you know what you're getting and can pretty much guarantee that he'll continue to improve as he's trended upwards (statistically) in every year he's been a pro.

[pjfootballer]

I'd take Harden over everyone else we might get also, but Beal averaged 15 ppg on 10.6 shots per game as a true freshman. I'm not sure how you can say you don't want potential and at the same time advocate trading down for the 6 and 11 pick.

With any NBA draft, anything in the top 5 should be star players, especially at 3. At 6 and 11, there should be growing pains. Example: Luck and Griffin are projected immediate starters and stars. Tannehill at 8 has questions and may not even start.

Edited June 28, 2012 by pjfootballer

[Going Commando]

SM, you're ignoring the fact that Harden is a 3rd year pro, who has gotten better EVERY year. He's 22 and would fill and immediate need for us at the 2. He had a bad Finals, and I think his performance vs. Miami is clouding the judgement of a lot of people. He's well worth giving up the #3 pick. This isn't a role player in the mold of Mike Miller or Randy Foye. Or an over-the hill vet...this is a player who hasn't scratched the surface of his potential and has the ability to be one of, if not THE best SG in the NBA in due time. I really think highly of Harden and we'd be foolish not to nab him if he is actually made available by OKC>

You think much more highly of Harden than I do. I just don't see that kind of potential out of him as a player. I think he's a complimentary player who sees a couple of All Star appearances in the right year but is never a superstar or even perennial all star. To be the best SG in the league, he'd have to exceed those expectations by a lot.

He's just not that special to me. I want us to take a swing with this 3rd pick. Trading for Harden would have me worried we're going to cap out at mediocrity.

[RonArtest15]

You think much more highly of Harden than I do. I just don't see that kind of potential out of him as a player. I think he's a complimentary player who sees a couple of All Star appearances in the right year but is never a superstar or even perennial all star. To be the best SG in the league, he'd have to exceed those expectations by a lot.

He's just not that special to me. I want us to take a swing with this 3rd pick. Trading for Harden would have me worried we're going to cap out at mediocrity.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

I've made the comparison to Manu, and I think he can be a better NBA pro. He's crafty, he can shoot, can get to the rim, and can facilitate the offense if need-be. He'd be EVERYTHING we're looking for in a 2-guard. Did I mention that he's ONLY 22? He's 100x less of a risk than taking Beal/MKG/Barnes/Robinson at the #3. He'd absolutely thrive here in DC. Give him a max deal. He's worth it.

*I'd only make this trade on the basis that Harden re-ups.

[StillUnknown]

Going back through Ernie's draft history, I could be missing something, but it seems he's only drafted 1 all-star (Michael Redd for one season) during his entire time as a GM, and none during his tenure as Wizard's GM.

[Going Commando]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

I've made the comparison to Manu, and I think he can be a better NBA pro. He's crafty, he can shoot, can get to the rim, and can facilitate the offense if need-be. He'd be EVERYTHING we're looking for in a 2-guard. Did I mention that he's ONLY 22? He's 100x less of a risk than taking Beal/MKG/Barnes/Robinson at the #3. He'd absolutely thrive here in DC. Give him a max deal. He's worth it.

*I'd only make this trade on the basis that Harden re-ups.

I would never give Harden a max deal. He is in now way shape or form even remotely close to a max contract player. He's not even as good as Joe Johnson and Johnson's contract is an epic disaster that is killing basketball in Atlanta.

Harden is a poor man's Manu. He's not even close to as good a ball handler as Manu, not as creative a scorer, not as pesky a defender, and he has more holes in his offensive game than Manu.

Even if he were as good as Manu, Manu is not worth a max contract.

[SuperBash]

If OKC wants Beal so bad and is unsure about Harden, then I want Beal.

[RonArtest15]

I would never give Harden a max deal. He is in now way shape or form even remotely close to a max contract player. He's not even as good as Joe Johnson and Johnson's contract is an epic disaster that is killing basketball in Atlanta.

Harden is a poor man's Manu. He's not even close to as good a ball handler as Manu, not as creative a scorer, not as pesky a defender, and he has more holes in his offensive game than Manu.

Even if he were as good as Manu, Manu is not worth a max contract.

You give Harden a max deal, he's 27/28 when it expires. Harden is every bit as good of a ball-handler as GInobili. He can do EVERYTHING the same as him. Now, I will give you that he's not as good of a defender, but on the offensive end there isn't much of a difference.

And FWIW, in this current CBA, James Harden is a max-contract type of player.

Speaking of Joe Johnson, there isn't a chance in hell I'm taking JJ over Harden right now. One is on the decline, and the other is on the upswing. Also, I'd be willing to revisit this when Harden reaches his prime....but, I have ZERO doubt that he'll be 10x the better player than JJ when comparing careers.

[StillUnknown]

Just the fact that we would have to sign him to an extension probably eliminates the realistic chances that we get Harden.

We would have to get really creative to fit him under our cap.

[ixcuincle]

Late, but Kornheiser talking about Juwan Howard's music video when he was with the Bullets

The Wizards should consider doing that again

Juwan Howard was a beast with the Bullets

[RonArtest15]

From Chad Ford, via BF:

If the Wizards believe they are in danger of losing Beal to a team moving up in the draft, don't be surprised if they offer the Bobcats the No. 32 pick to move up one spot. The Wizards might also entertain a James Harden offer from the Thunder for Beal. Finally, if Beal is off the board, the Wizards have talked to teams about moving down to Nos. 5, 7, 8 or 9

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/28/3123241/nba-mock-draft-2012-chad-ford-wizards#comments

If possible and if the b-ball Gods are on our side, the Wizards will trade the #3/#32 with Charlotte for the #2. They would then trade the #2 (plus filler) to OKC for Harden.

This would be the absolute best-case scenario tonight, and one that would (and should) leave Wizards fans VERY happy.

[TaylorPickSix]

From Chad Ford, via BF:

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/6/28/3123241/nba-mock-draft-2012-chad-ford-wizards#comments

If possible and if the b-ball Gods are on our side, the Wizards will trade the #3/#32 with Charlotte for the #2. They would then trade the #2 (plus filler) to OKC for Harden.

This would be the absolute best-case scenario tonight, and one that would (and should) leave Wizards fans VERY happy.

In theory I like what you are saying, but I have the same concerns as Fight4RGIII - shouldn't we be suspicious if OKC would rather have Beal than Harden? Why not just take Beal ourselves?

If the motivation for trading Harden for Beal from OKC's end is purely financial, I suppose I can understand. I just don't get why we would want to trade Beal instead of taking him for ourselves if he's supposed to be better than Harden, talent-wise.

[RonArtest15]

In theory I like what you are saying, but I have the same concerns as Fight4RGIII - shouldn't we be suspicious if OKC would rather have Beal than Harden? Why not just take Beal ourselves?

If the motivation for trading Harden for Beal from OKC's end is purely financial, I suppose I can understand. I just don't get why we would want to trade Beal instead of taking him for ourselves if he's supposed to be better than Harden, talent-wise.

This is what Prada posted over on BF

(hypothetically), Harden + 28 for 3 and two of the Wiz’s other young guys.

I'm guessing it's Harden/28 for 3/ +(2/3) of /Seraphin/Singleton/Crawford

I'd jump on this in a second if I'm EG.

*I forgot that OKC had the 28 in my original post...if we can get that as well, I'd REALLLLY like this trade. I mean, I already like it...but the #28 is icing on the cake.

Edited June 28, 2012 by RonArtest15

[Warhead36]

Why wouldn't the Bobcats just outright make the trade with OKC themselves?

[TaylorPickSix]

*I forgot that OKC had the 28 in my original post...if we can get that as well, I'd REALLLLY like this trade. I mean, I already like it...but the #28 is icing on the cake.

Oooooh, I like the sound of that too! I like Crawford but he wouldn't see much time at the 2 with Harden/Ariza/if we draft another shooter. Would keep my hopes alive of the Wiz picking up Mike Scott late (right now I'm hoping we get him at 32).

---------- Post added June-28th-2012 at 11:34 AM ----------

Why wouldn't the Bobcats just outright make the trade with OKC themselves?

They probably don't want to trade down that far, or maybe their ownership isn't sold on Harden. I think he'd be more likely to sign an extension with us than them, based on our respective current rosters.