The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[DjTj]

Come on man. Typo. The Big Three. And the few games I was able to afford to go to back in their heyday, the Phone Booth was packed. While the home opener wasn't as empty as some made it out to be *cough*chadflukes*cough* but it wasn't filled like it should be. Strasburg's debut was insane, you'd think Wall's would be similar. I know he wasn't nearly as hyped as Jesus but the Verizon Center is a third of the size of Nats Park.

Unfortunately, Wall's debut was on Election Day, so I think a lot of people had other plans. I was given four free club level tickets because nobody else in my office wanted them.

The Strasburg debut also had a lot more time to build hype. He was blowing people away in the minors and his starting date was a moving target. Part of the fun was getting tickets for the right day, and he was only pitching in maybe 15-20 games in the season, so it was a rare opportunity, whereas John Wall would be playing 40 times. And I think any knowledgeable basketball fan would know that seeing Wall late this season will be better than seeing his debut because a point guard on a new time takes time to develop chemistry with his teammates. A pitcher is going to be lights out from the beginning, so the debut was the place to be. Also, baseball tickets are a lot cheaper than basketball tickets.

In any case, while Strasburg games sold out, other Nats games still had pretty mediocre attendance. If the Wizards start making playoff runs, the Verizon Center will be packed again. Caps tickets actually weren't that hard to find in the beginning of the Caps' run two years ago. Caps tickets were going for below face at the beginning of the 2008 playoffs. It wasn't until the next season that things really took off. Outside of the Redskins, this is a bandwagon town.

[Going Commando]

Yep, high school and college basketball has a rich tradition here. Professional basketball does not.

But that suggests the region loves basketball. This is definitely the case in Southern Virginia, where I'm from. Basketball is the most popular sport to play, and almost nobody in the region has an entrenched loyalty to an NBA franchise yet. I think there are a lot of fence-sitting potential Wizards fans like I was. Growing up, everyone I knew picked their favorite NBA teams based on their favorite players. Most like the Lakers because they like watching Kobe Bryant. Putting a spectacular one like Wall on the Wizards ensures those fans will pick them. Say we finish the year with a high enough pick to draft Harrison Barnes and I think you'll only end up courting the rabid Carolina demographic even more since Wall is from Raleigh too. The Bobcats are in Charlotte which is far enough away that you aren't automatically going to get the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill base and they certainly aren't an entrenched team.

I'm with GACOLB about being jaded with the Redskins. The franchise has been so incredibly frustrating because of its stubborn pattern of ineptness. I don't think I can take another offseason where we refuse to bite the bullet and make a concerted effort to improve by stockpiling draft picks. Hell at this point, I'd settle for simply keeping our original ones and using them. Plus the NFL is a mess with such a high level of unfairness built into the game that it's driving me away. Things like the Lions losing a game because of a horrendously worded catch rule should just not happen in 2010. Couple that with the fact that the game day experience of the NFL is so inferior to watching at home, plus the fact that the pacing of NFL games is infuriating with all of the advertisements, and that the media coverage of the sport is so unbearably awful; it's shocking that the league is as popular as it has been. Especially since football is such a complex game where individual performance is difficult to isolate and the vast majority of the action happens away from the ball--it discourages laymen from following it.

[Sticksboi05]

In any case, while Strasburg games sold out, other Nats games still had pretty mediocre attendance. If the Wizards start making playoff runs, the Verizon Center will be packed again. Caps tickets actually weren't that hard to find in the beginning of the Caps' run two years ago. Caps tickets were going for below face at the beginning of the 2008 playoffs. It wasn't until the next season that things really took off. Outside of the Redskins, this is a bandwagon town.

And it will be until another team actually win a championship not in the disco era.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

But that suggests the region loves basketball. This is definitely the case in Southern Virginia, where I'm from. Basketball is the most popular sport to play, and almost nobody in the region has an entrenched loyalty to an NBA franchise yet. I think there are a lot of fence-sitting potential Wizards fans like I was. Growing up, everyone I knew picked their favorite NBA teams based on their favorite players. Most like the Lakers because they like watching Kobe Bryant. Putting a spectacular one like Wall on the Wizards ensures those fans will pick them. Say we finish the year with a high enough pick to draft Harrison Barnes and I think you'll only end up courting the rabid Carolina demographic even more since Wall is from Raleigh too. The Bobcats are in Charlotte which is far enough away that you aren't automatically going to get the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill base and they certainly aren't an entrenched team.

I'm with GACOLB about being jaded with the Redskins. The franchise has been so incredibly frustrating because of its stubborn pattern of ineptness. I don't think I can take another offseason where we refuse to bite the bullet and make a concerted effort to improve by stockpiling draft picks. Hell at this point, I'd settle for simply keeping our original ones and using them. Plus the NFL is a mess with such a high level of unfairness built into the game that it's driving me away. Things like the Lions losing a game because of a horrendously worded catch rule should just not happen in 2010. Couple that with the fact that the game day experience of the NFL is so inferior to watching at home, plus the fact that the pacing of NFL games is infuriating with all of the advertisements, and that the media coverage of the sport is so unbearably awful; it's shocking that the league is as popular as it has been. Especially since football is such a complex game where individual performance is difficult to isolate and the vast majority of the action happens away from the ball--it discourages laymen from following it.

Well, if we're going with personal, anecdotal evidence...then I'm someone who flies in the face of what you're saying. I played organized basketball from the age of 6 until I graduated from high school. I've played it recreationally since that time into my 30s. At no point during those years (roughly 1982 until today) have I ever been tempted to start seriously following the Bullets or Wizards. For many who play(ed) the sport (which is a huge contingent in this area) the NBA seems like a different game. I have always preferred to watch the NCAA over the NBA.

All I'm saying is that I just don't see the professional basketball team every trumping the football or baseball teams assuming relatively similar success on the court/field. I don't blame you and GACOLB for losing your enthusiasm for the Redskins...but you're still in the minority when it comes to which professional sport you prefer to follow.

[Going Commando]

Well, if we're going with personal, anecdotal evidence...then I'm someone who flies in the face of what you're saying. I played organized basketball from the age of 6 until I graduated from high school. I've played it recreationally since that time into my 30s. At no point during those years (roughly 1982 until today) have I ever been tempted to start seriously following the Bullets or Wizards. For many who play(ed) the sport (which is a huge contingent in this area) the NBA seems like a different game. I have always preferred to watch the NCAA over the NBA.

All I'm saying is that I just don't see the professional basketball team every trumping the football or baseball teams assuming relatively similar success on the court/field. I don't blame you and GACOLB for losing your enthusiasm for the Redskins...but you're still in the minority when it comes to which professional sport you prefer to follow.

That's the rub though. While I think the future for the Nats is very bright, do you feel the same sense of optimism about the Redskins as you do for the Wizards? Everything Leonsis touches turns to gold, he gives me confidence that the future will not resemble the past when it comes to the Wizards. Add to that we've got an immensely talented young center growing with an immensely talented young pure point guard and it's a formula that instills hope. Plus we've got young role players who have flashed ability and we're also probably going to finish with a very high draft pick this year. The plan for improvement the Wizards are using is coherent. It makes sense, is transparent, and it's one that has worked for other organizations in the past.

I don't think you're going to see the same level of success between each franchise over the course of the next decade. If the Redskins are improving at all, it's going to come extremely slowly since last year was an entirely wasted offseason. We made no positive gains in the draft. We replaced a former perennial All Star left tackle with one who looks like he can be one too. But that's pretty much a status quo move. We traded our other high pick for a shaky QB and then basically threw the rest of our draft picks away... during one of the two or three strongest classes of the decade.

Edited November 17, 2010 by stevemcqueen1

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

That's just the burrito you ate.

Maybe so. :pfft:

[No Excuses]

Wall is expected to play tonight. Wonder if we can hang with the C's. We gave them real trouble last year with our athleticism.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That's the rub though. While I think the future for the Nats is very bright, do you feel the same sense of optimism about the Redskins as you do for the Wizards? Everything Leonsis touches turns to gold, he gives me confidence that the future will not resemble the past when it comes to the Wizards. Add to that we've got an immensely talented young center growing with an immensely talented young pure point guard and it's a formula that instills hope. Plus we've got young role players who have flashed ability and we're also probably going to finish with a very high draft pick this year. The plan for improvement the Wizards are using is coherent. It makes sense, is transparent, and it's one that has worked for other organizations in the past.

I don't think you're going to see the same level of success between each franchise over the course of the next decade. If the Redskins are improving at all, it's going to come extremely slowly since last year was an entirely wasted offseason. We made no positive gains in the draft. We replaced a former perennial All Star left tackle with one who looks like he can be one too. But that's pretty much a status quo move. We traded our other high pick for a shaky QB and then basically threw the rest of our draft picks away... during one of the two or three strongest classes of the decade.

Well, I would agree that if the Wizards become a perennial contender and no other local team does, then they will attract more fans. I don't see that as an automatic though. I think they'd have to be significantly better than the Redskins for an extended period of time. Let's not forget that we're talking about a franchise that has been just as bad for much longer.

But, my point still remains, that DC will not turn into a basketball town unless the other sports fall by the wayside. If that's your argument too, I guess we agree.

[DjTj]

Well, I would agree that if the Wizards become a perennial contender and no other local team does, then they will attract more fans. I don't see that as an automatic though. I think they'd have to be significantly better than the Redskins for an extended period of time. Let's not forget that we're talking about a franchise that has been just as bad for much longer.

But, my point still remains, that DC will not turn into a basketball town unless the other sports fall by the wayside. If that's your argument too, I guess we agree.

I don't think any team will ever really unseat the Redskins, but it really doesn't take that much for a winning team to get significantly more popular.

When Arenas led the Wizards to the playoffs year after year, they started drawing very good attendance numbers. When the Caps started making the playoffs, their attendance numbers grew very quickly. The Nats haven't yet had that breakout season, but the same opportunity is there. A little bit of success can go a long way. Here are some numbers:

Redskins attendance:

2006: 87,631 (109.4%)

2007: 88,090 (110.0%)

2008: 88,604 (110.6%)

2009: 84,794 (92.5%)

2010: 87,893 (95.8%)

Wizards attendance:

2005-06: 17,196 (85.3%)

2006-07: 18,372 (91.1%)

2007-08: 17,962 (89.1%)

2008-09: 16,612 (82.4%)

2009-10: 16,204 (80.3%)

Capitals attendance:

2005-06: 13,905 (74.5%)

2006-07: 13,929 (74.6%)

2007-08: 15,472 (82.9%)

2008-09: 18,097 (96.9%)

2009-10: 18,277 (100.0%)

Nationals attendance:

2006: 26,580 (58.7%)

2007: 24,217 (53.5%)

2008: 29,005 (69.2%)

2009: 22,715 (54.2%)

2010: 22,568 (53.9%)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Edited November 17, 2010 by DjTj
added Redskins numbers

[TD_washingtonredskins]

DjTj,

Attendance is a tough way to gauge if a town is truly engaging with a pro sport. So there are 100K people interested. I would think that media coverage, general fans, people buying gear, etc. is more accurate. People can be fans and not show up for games (which would help your point). However, a team can gain enough fans to sell out games while not making DC a basketball town.

Professional sports-wise...this will always go football, baseball, basketball/hockey in my opinion.

[DjTj]

DjTj,

Attendance is a tough way to gauge if a town is truly engaging with a pro sport. So there are 100K people interested. I would think that media coverage, general fans, people buying gear, etc. is more accurate. People can be fans and not show up for games (which would help your point). However, a team can gain enough fans to sell out games while not making DC a basketball town.

I think the percentages are significant. All of these things are highly correlated, and attendance is a simple number that can be isolated. When there is more media coverage and more people buying gear, there are more people going to games. It all goes hand-in-hand.

In any case, my real point in showing the numbers is to demonstrate how they go up and down based on the team's success. The Wizards had a lot more fans when they were winning, and the Caps have that now. The Nats got a boost from the new stadium, but don't really have that strong of a base.

Professional sports-wise...this will always go football, baseball, basketball/hockey in my opinion.

I only disagree with you on baseball. Baseball monopolizes the summer, but the Nats are certainly less popular than the Caps right now and probably less popular than the Wizards. If you asked people on the street to name a player on the Nationals, Caps, or Wizards, I think Ovechkin wins that poll right now. Gilbert Arenas might contend, but maybe for some of the wrong reasons.

The Caps, Wizards, and Nationals are only as popular as their records ... it will take something really special ( like a mini-dynasty with multiple championships) for any one of those teams to challenge the Redskins.

Edited November 17, 2010 by DjTj

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think the percentages are significant. All of these things are highly correlated, and attendance is a simple number that can be isolated. When there is more media coverage and more people buying gear, there are more people going to games. It all goes hand-in-hand.

In any case, my real point in showing the numbers is to demonstrate how they go up and down based on the team's success. The Wizards had a lot more fans when they were winning, and the Caps have that now. The Nats got a boost from the new stadium, but don't really have that strong of a base.

I only disagree with you on baseball. Baseball monopolizes the summer, but the Nats are certainly less popular than the Caps right now and probably less popular than the Wizards. If you asked people on the street to name a player on the Nationals, Caps, or Wizards, I think Ovechkin wins that poll right now. Gilbert Arenas might contend, but maybe for some of the wrong reasons.

The Caps, Wizards, and Nationals are only as popular as their records ... it will take something really special ( like a mini-dynasty with multiple championships) for any one of those teams to challenge the Redskins.

Fair enough...that all makes sense. I see what you mean.

[Going Commando]

McGee's a fantasy beast. He got my team 10 rebounds (6 offensive) and 2 more blocks in only 26 minutes. Damn I wish he got more time. Come on Flip, Free McGee. He'd have five blocks a game if they played him for 10 more minutes or so and that'd probably be enough for me to win that category with just him. Aside from that, WTF Arenas? You got me two 3s but that was the only positive about your performance. Crap scoring, crap shooting percentages from the floor and line, and no semblance of help in the assist or rebounding categories. Back to the bench with you.

[Warhead36]

McGee's a fantasy beast. He got my team 10 rebounds (6 offensive) and 2 more blocks in only 26 minutes. Damn I wish he got more time. Come on Flip, Free McGee. He'd have five blocks a game if they played him for 10 more minutes or so and that'd probably be enough for me to win that category with just him. Aside from that, WTF Arenas? You got me two 3s but that was the only positive about your performance. Crap scoring, crap shooting percentages from the floor and line, and no semblance of help in the assist or rebounding categories. Back to the bench with you.

IIRC McGee has asthma so his conditioning is an issue. I don't see him ever playing more tahn ~26-28 minutes a game. I think in the long run he'll best be used as an energetic big off the bench.

[Hubbs]

DC is not a professional basketball town. DC is an amateur basketball town. The Bullets/Wizards will never be as popular as successful DC football or baseball, though it should easily eclipse hockey if/when the basketball team becomes contenders.

Dude, the Caps have built up an insanely loyal fanbase. I'm not too sure the Wiz would surpass them even if the team was good.

[Hubbs]

Oh, and here's a completely random thought: I was thinking about the team name the other day, and suddenly "Washington Minutemen" came to my head. For those of you who don't know, the minutemen were a type of rapid-response colonial militia (hence the name) who fought in the Revolutionary War and helped repel unexpected British attacks. If Leonsis doesn't want to go back to Bullets, then I think Minutemen at least sounds better than both Wizards and those other stupid suggestions like Generals (the jokes will never cease), Justice, Diplomats, and Agents (one of the worst suggestions I've heard, which, of course, means LaVar and Dukes loved it). Any thoughts?

Edited November 18, 2010 by Hubbs

[Burgold]

I like the Washington Taxmen or the Washington Revenuers... a name sure to strike fear into the heart of any modern professional athlete.

For some reason, Minutemen in my mind belongs to Boston or at least New England. I do like the idea of a name that celebrates the United States though.

[Going Commando]

I like the Washington Taxmen or the Washington Revenuers... a name sure to strike fear into the heart of any modern professional athlete.

For some reason, Minutemen in my mind belongs to Boston or at least New England. I do like the idea of a name that celebrates the United States though.

Yeah Minutemen has a New England association. UMass' mascot is the Minutemen. I'd want something a little more specific to the Virginia colony or to the Potomac region.

[Going Commando]

IIRC McGee has asthma so his conditioning is an issue. I don't see him ever playing more tahn ~26-28 minutes a game. I think in the long run he'll best be used as an energetic big off the bench.

Can't we get him some effective steroids or something? I don't have anyone else that can reliably get me blocks and now that David Lee is hurt, my rebounding is taking a hit.

BTW, this fantasy team is mostly incredible. I'm not even sure exactly how it came together so well, but it involved some trade devilry. Here's the roster if anyone cares:

PG: Stephen Curry

SG: Dwyane Wade

SF: Kevin Durant

PF: Dirk Nowitzki

C: Al Horford

G: Joe Johnson

F: David Lee

UTIL: Michael Beasley

UTIL: Jason Terry

UTIL: Javale McGee

Bench: Gilbert Arenas

Bench: Richard Jefferson

Bench: Ben Gordon

Richard Jefferson was the only guy I picked up on waivers. I did this in an auction league and got lucky there was a moron in the league who basically ended up trading me Durant and Nowitzki for a final total of Blake Griffin and Tim Duncan. (He traded me those two for Wade and Joe Johnson, then traded me those two back for Duncan and Griffin). Lee and Nowitzki and Curry have underachieved so far, but they'll come around eventually... I hope. But it's a H2H league so I've still been able to win matchups from scoring so many points, shooting so well, and eking out enough steals, blocks, and threes to come out on top. Unfortunately, I'm getting creamed in rebounds and assists every week.

Edited November 18, 2010 by stevemcqueen1

[Duckus]

Oh, and here's a completely random thought: I was thinking about the team name the other day, and suddenly "Washington Minutemen" came to my head. For those of you who don't know, the minutemen were a type of rapid-response colonial militia (hence the name) who fought in the Revolutionary War and helped repel unexpected British attacks. If Leonsis doesn't want to go back to Bullets, then I think Minutemen at least sounds better than both Wizards and those other stupid suggestions like Generals (the jokes will never cease), Justice, Diplomats, and Agents (one of the worst suggestions I've heard, which, of course, means LaVar and Dukes loved it). Any thoughts?

One problem is the jokes about the other meaning of Minutemen.

[Duckus]

Can't we get him some effective steroids or something? I don't have anyone else that can reliably get me blocks and now that David Lee is hurt, my rebounding is taking a hit.

BTW, this fantasy team is mostly incredible. I'm not even sure exactly how it came together so well, but it involved some trade devilry. Here's the roster if anyone cares:

PG: Stephen Curry

SG: Dwyane Wade

SF: Kevin Durant

PF: Dirk Nowitzki

C: Al Horford

G: Joe Johnson

F: David Lee

UTIL: Michael Beasley

UTIL: Jason Terry

UTIL: Javale McGee

Bench: Gilbert Arenas

Bench: Richard Jefferson

Bench: Ben Gordon

Richard Jefferson was the only guy I picked up on waivers. I did this in an auction league and got lucky there was a moron in the league who basically ended up trading me Durant and Nowitzki for a final total of Blake Griffin and Tim Duncan. (He traded me those two for Wade and Joe Johnson, then traded me those two back for Duncan and Griffin). Lee and Nowitzki and Curry have underachieved so far, but they'll come around eventually... I hope. But it's a H2H league so I've still been able to win matchups from scoring so many points, shooting so well, and eking out enough steals, blocks, and threes to come out on top. Unfortunately, I'm getting creamed in rebounds and assists every week.

Nice, I am 10 team auction keeper league (year 4 right now). I kept Durrant for like $40 and Curry for $1. Yea, I got him as a rookie for $1 . . . . ****ing awesome.

My Big 5. When healthy - unstoppable.

John Wall

Stephen Curry

Kevin Durant

Kevin Love

David Lee

My role players

Brandon Roy

JaVale McGee

Jameer Nelson

Richard Jefferson

My blah

Jamal Crawford

Anderson Varejao

Al Thornton

IR - Yao Ming

Picked up Yao on waivers and threw him on IR. No risk, potential reward.

David Lee, Wall and Brandon Roy are killing me this week. I am really scared about Roy . . . .his injury seems serious.

I search the waiver wire daily to change up my blah players, they change weekly.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Duckus

[Hubbs]

One problem is the jokes about the other meaning of Minutemen.

True, I guess that's one downside. I'd consider it minor, though.

[pjfootballer]

Me personally, I'm about sick of the Redskins. I'll take a Wiz championship over a Skins Super Bowl. The whole thing is just so tainted and played out at this point. From the ownership to the media to the fanbase. The whole thlng is just one big headache. It's not fun anymore. But that's just me.

And the Wizards are different how? I mean, I've been a fan of this team since the 1977 season when I was nine, and pretty much I'm sick of the whole Wizards situation every year. We're the Clippers east, maybe not as sucky, but with only a couple of years when we had Webber/Howard/Strickland, the team has been a nightmare. I've felt this way about the Wizards just as much as the Redskins.

[pjfootballer]

Maybe so. :pfft:

With the history of the Wizards, I'm on a "I'll believe it when I see it," approach. The Redskins are making me turn that way lately also.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Dude, the Caps have built up an insanely loyal fanbase. I'm not too sure the Wiz would surpass them even if the team was good.

I believe they would simply because basketball is a much more mainstream sport and will be for a long time. I agree that the Caps will be more popular as long as there is such a big success discrepancy.