Is Donovan McNabb a top 10 QB?

[SuperTough]

McNabb has both been touted as being over-rated and under-appreciated depending on who's talking.

As it stands right now for him, he's likely going to be remembered as a Ken Stabler type of QB. A competitor, an ultimate team-oriented player, but he just hasn't done enough to be hall of fame worthy.

Since so much of McNabb's reputation is on him being a winner (and not the stats), I say that he'll need to win at least one superbowl and likely make the pro-bowl a couple more times.

Now for the matter at hand with the top 10 QB rankings, the stats for a QB are determined so much with the play-calling/coaching and the surrounding talent. The determining factor for me for the top QB's is whether or not you'd want him to give him the ball when the game's on the line (i.e., would he make the plays necessary to win?)

McNabb has the ability to bury teams when his team's ahead. He also has the big-play threat ability. I'm not sure that his track record is as good for the 2 minute drill. He certainly hasn't been as good as a Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Favre, or some other QB's.

Now are there even 10 QB's that have that ability consistently? I'm not sure. McNabb is definitely in the discussion though for top 10 QB's for his other intangibles. I'm sure as heck glad that he's on our team.

[Commander PK]

Haven't read more than the first page of the thread, but I would say that they don't think he's top ten now, because he plays for the Redskins.

Plain and Simple. If he is still with the Eagles, he's top 10. Redskins, he's not. We get no respect, and honestly we haven't earned any...yet.

[NattyLight]

Donovan McNabb is one of only 4 HOF'ers currently playing in the NFL (Brady, P. Manning, B. Favre)

[21AllDay]

My top 10:

1. Drew Brees
   
2. Aaron Rodgers
   
3. Peyton Manning
   
4. Tom Brady
   
5. Phillip Rivers
   
6. Matt Schaub
   
7. Tony Romo sits to pee (not for long)
   
8. Matt Ryan
   
9. Donovan McNabb
   
10. Jay Cutler
    

One nice series in the preseason opener against the bills is not anything to get excited about with McNabb. However, considering the fact he's lost weight and has A WHOLE LOT to prove not just to Shanny, Us, or the Eagles but to himself and everyone else that follows the NFC East, I like him as a top 10 QB this year.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

The point is, last year we're not having this conversation re our QB.

I was impressed with DM's run for the first down against the Bills....

[21AllDay]

Donovan McNabb is one of only 4 HOF'ers currently playing in the NFL (Brady, P. Manning, B. Favre)

Roethlisberger?

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think Archie Manning is probably the most underrated QB in NFL history. The irony is that his son Peyton, who isn't half the QB his dad was, will probably surpass Joe Montana as the most overrated QB in NFL history.

Under normal circumstances, I would just let this go. But nobody commented on this little tidbit.

Ok, you don't think Peyton is great. The knock on him is that he can't win the big one. Well, more than once, since he has one SB.

But really? Joe Montana is widely regarded by just about every former football player, current football player, and knowledgeable football analyst as no worse than the second or third greatest QB of all time. He did it as well as anybody, and has 4 SBs to show for it.

I think saying Peyton isn't in the top 3 QBs playing right now is nuts. But saying that Joey Cool is the most over-rated QB in history is complete and total insanity. (And I never rooted for the 49ers. Ever. In anything.)

Roethlisberger?

Maybe HOF worthy one day. Doesn't really have the stats, and in one of the SBs he was HORRID, but had BY FAR the better team. Too soon to tell really.

He puts together another few years, and stays out of trouble (getting into trouble will cost him field-time, possibly a full year with the next offense), then maybe. As of right now? No...

[bigjumbo1971]

Most if not all of the quarterbacks placed higher than McNabb had better wide receivers and/or tight ends to work with in their primes.

It isn't a coincidence that the ONE YEAR that McNabb had Terrell Owens that the Eagles made it to the Super Bowl and failed to return in subsequent years.

To really evaluate McNabb you might have to think about what kind of offense Peyton or Brees would perform in where Todd Pinkston and Reggie Brown are your prime receivers.

Not exactly Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne are they?

agreed I thought the year with TO showed what McNabb could look like with talent...too bad (for the eagles) he made the comment before playoffs that they would continue winning w/o TO (which they did) knowing TO was looking for a bigger contract

[Warhead36]

QBs I would definitely take over McNabb:

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Phillip Rivers

Ben Roethlisberger

After that it gets a bit murky. I'm not saying McNabb is the 7th best QB in the NFL, but there are a bunch of guys that are basically on the same level. Guys like E. Manning, Romo sits to pee, Schaub, Palmer, and Ryan. Outside of an elite few, QB success can be dependent on a lot of factors like supporting cast, system, coaching, and quality of opponents, among others. So McNabb pretty much ranges between 7th at best to around 12th at worst.

[Destino]

2009: 17th in passing yards. 12th in QB Rating. 13th in TDs.

2008: 7th in passing yards. 14th in QB Rating. 8th in TDs.

2007: 13th in passing yards. 9th in QB rating. 14th in TDs.

He never seems to throw a lot of picks but statistically speaking he doesn't look like an obvious top 10 QB based on his last 3 seasons but he'd be in the conversation.

My Top 10:

1- Drew Brees. You can't beat his leadership and his numbers have been off the charts.

2- Peyton Manning. An on the field coach with a laser rocket arm.

3- Tom Brady. Crunch time you can't ask for much more than this guy brings to the table.

4- Phillip Rivers. Consistently great.

5- Aaron Rodgers. Much better than people seem to realize.

6- Ben Roethlisberger. Tends to make stupid mistakes but seems to find a way to win when he needs to more often than not.

7- Tony Romo sits to pee. I hate the guy and his **** eating grin... but he's a very good QB... good enough to get Miles Austin some Kardashian booty.

8- DMac. Has slowed in his old age but still throw few picks despite having played without run support for ever.

9- Matt Schaub. Quietly had a brilliant season and showed the world that perhaps David Carr was as much the problem is that Texans offensive line.

10- Bret Favre. I put him at ten because he's a mummy that is as dangerous to have on your team as anyone. At any moment he's gone

[Redskins4ever]

Donovan McNabb is definitely in the top 10. All the guy does is lead teams to playoff appearances and ends up in pro bowls.

[Oldfan]

Under normal circumstances, I would just let this go. But nobody commented on this little tidbit.

Ok, you don't think Peyton is great. The knock on him is that he can't win the big one. Well, more than once, since he has one SB.

But really? Joe Montana is widely regarded by just about every former football player, current football player, and knowledgeable football analyst as no worse than the second or third greatest QB of all time. He did it as well as anybody, and has 4 SBs to show for it.

I think saying Peyton isn't in the top 3 QBs playing right now is nuts. But saying that Joey Cool is the most over-rated QB in history is complete and total insanity. (And I never rooted for the 49ers. Ever. In anything.)

Like most fans and the media, you grade QBs on team stats and team accomplishments. I'm grading the player as a scout would grade him, on the tangibles, what can be seen if you watch him play and watch carefully.

My approach grades Joe Montana, not Joe Montana and his 49er team.

Phil Simms won't knock QBs, but he shares my opinion that when he hears people talk about a QB's intangibles he turns a deaf ear -- not because the intangibles aren't important, but because the talk is mostly BS intended to hype a QB or knock him.

Steve Young shares my opinion that Archie Manning was a very underrated QB. He was underrated because he played his prime years with the hapless Saints. He had the worst win percentage of any QB with 100 starts in NFL history.

[MattFancy]

Haven't read more than the first page of the thread, but I would say that they don't think he's top ten now, because he plays for the Redskins.

Plain and Simple. If he is still with the Eagles, he's top 10. Redskins, he's not. We get no respect, and honestly we haven't earned any...yet.

Maybe you should've read the 1st page. This was a debate yesterday on 980 which is the Redskins radio station.

[MattFancy]

Go team by team through the NFL and ask yourself whos starter you would trade him for on an even trade and then you will have your answer. For me he's somewhere around 20th.

Wait what? There are 19 QBs in this league you would take over McNabb?

I'll list the starters and you tell me who you would take:

Romo sits to pee

Eli

Kolb

Rodgers

Favre

Cutler

Stafford

Brees

Ryan

Moore

Freeman

Leinart

Smith

Hasselbeck

Bradford

Brady

Henne

Sanchez

Edwards

Flacco

Rothlesberger

Palmer

Delhomme

Peyton

Schaub

Young

Garrard

Rivers

Cassel

Orton

Campbell

So you're saying McNabb is only better than 12 QBs in the league? Now that's funny.

[Bliz]

Since my opinion is based on personal observations, I can't prove anything. The difference between us is that you think you can support your opinion with statistics like the completion percentage.

In addition to the QB's ability, the completion percentage measures the scheme, the quality of the play calling, the protection and the receivers. When you claim it as a QB statistic, you're making a bogus claim and you don't seem to realize it.

When fans or members of the media want to hype a QB, and they can't do it with tangible evidence (stuff anyone can see), they do it with BS on the intangibles. Peyton gets a lot of hype on the intangibles because it's obvious he isn't gifted with the tangibles.

I realize exactly what you are doing.

You're taking a contrarian position, likely because you're sick of hearing about how great Peyton is, and trying to justify it in a way that makes it impossible to counter (this is based on what I see, stats are flawed). You have acknowledged that you can't articulate anything to support your position other than "this is what I see and it's my opinion". That way you can simply dismiss any stat or individual good play as "well, he had good protection, it was a well-designed play and the receiver ran a good route." If you're taking away protection, scheme and route-running, all you are left with is the strength of his arm, his ability to read and react to defenses, mechanics, and his "play within the play" (i.e., this is what the play offered, did he execute?)

In all of those things, Peyton excels. Stats aside, based on what I have seen just in watching games, he is an assassin.

Now, whether he is overrated is actually a legitimate question. When the vast majority of professional football analysts put someone in the top 10 all time, or higher, it's fair to ask if he really belongs there above some of the other all-time greats. You can't be "most overrated" if you're not rated pretty damn high

[Capt'n Obvious]

I'd say McNabb is hovering around the top 10, there are several QB's I'd put in front of him (in no particular order):

Manning

Brady

Brees

Rodgers

Rivers

Schaub

Palmer

Big Ben, if he avoids the college bars

Flacco

The list is always subject to change obviously based on performance, but right now I have McNabb right around 10th, which is a step up from where we used to be.

:logo:

[CrypticVillain]

Donovan McNabb is one of only 4 first ballot HOF'ers currently playing in the NFL (Brady, P. Manning, B. Favre)

Fixed that for you. There are a lot of HOFers in the league, but they are probably the only ones who will get in on the first ballot.

[Oldfan]

You have acknowledged that you can't articulate anything to support your position other than "this is what I see and it's my opinion". That way you can simply dismiss any stat...

Individual stats in football are pretty much useless. This is a basic math concept: You can't measure factors A through H together and offer the result as a measurement of A.

The way I grade QBs is an intelligent but subjective approach. I don't expect to persuade most others. But, the way most fans and the media, including many self-styled "experts," do it is simply unintelligent.

[Bliz]

The way I grade QBs is an intelligent but subjective approach.

Sounds like a lot of the latter and little (if any) of the former.

So far you have only offered only 3 concrete criticisms of Peyton's game.

1) That the Colts run "the fewest pass plays in the NFL" (though I think you made that up) and thus you conclude they have done this to mask Peyton's lack of accuracy. Pretty shaky. You start with a questionable premise, then draw a conclusion which does not logically follow. If it was the case that they run the fewest pass plays, there could be any number of reasons to do so.

2) Peyton throws too many ducks to be accurate. This one doesn't even require comment. But I'll bite anyway: If a duck lands precisely where and when you want it to, it is an accurate throw. Throwing too many might suggest one of a number of problems, like a weak arm or poor decisionmaking. But accuracy? Not necessarily.

3) Peyton does not move well. Mobility is not his strong suit, but that's only one of many elements that go into making a great quarterback. Some great quarterbacks were mobile, many mobile quarterbacks were not great. It's a criticism, but at the end of the day a minor one.

You have subjective opinions and that's fine. But if you're going to be so critical and dismissive of others, you better come with something better than "My approach is subjective and smart, and everyone else is dumb." But it's fine, man. You don't have to be able to articulate the basis for subjective opinions. That's why they're opinions. But my opinion is you're a hater. Plain and simple.

[Oldfan]

So far you have only offered only 3 concrete criticisms of Peyton's game.

1) That the Colts run "the fewest pass plays in the NFL" (though I think you made that up) and thus you conclude they have done this to mask Peyton's lack of accuracy. Pretty shaky. You start with a questionable premise, then draw a conclusion which does not logically follow. If it was the case that they run the fewest pass plays, there could be any number of reasons to do so.

I heard this from Matt Bowen. I found the comment most credible because, after Eli's poor rookie season, Archie Manning told Eli to give his coaches a list of the plays he felt comfortable with. He did so, the coaches cut down the volume of pass plays, and Eli had much better results in year two.

Now, I don't know if Archie got the idea from Tom Moore or if he made the same suggestion to Tom Moore on Peyton's behalf. But, those two reports corroborate each other.

2) Peyton throws too many ducks to be accurate. This one doesn't even require comment. But I'll bite anyway: If a duck lands precisely where and when you want it to, it is an accurate throw. Throwing too many might suggest one of a number of problems, like a weak arm or poor decisionmaking. But accuracy? Not necessarily.

Accuracy in throwing a football is a matter of physics. There is a video online in which Drew Brees is hitting a target at a specified distance. A scientist calculated that the ball should make 4.3 (I could have the number wrong, but the actual number isn't relevant) rotations to be accurate at that distance. Slow-motion showed that Brees's passes made 4.3 rotations as he hit the target 10 out of 10 times.

Last week I watched video on the Coryell years. Dan Fouts talked about losing a playoff game in Cleveland in windy conditions. Fouts said that Cleveland had a big advantage because Ken Anderson threw tight spirals and he didn't.

3) Peyton does not move well. Mobility is not his strong suit, but that's only one of many elements that go into making a great quarterback. Some great quarterbacks were mobile, many mobile quarterbacks were not great. It's a criticism, but at the end of the day a minor one.

Mobility is not as big a factor as the ability to throw a football, but it is a signficant factor. Pocket passers limit the creativity a coach can bring to their schemes.

But my opinion is you're a hater. Plain and simple.

Whatever.

[Skinz4Life12]

Roethlisberger?

Rapistberger?

[Dblock804]

How in the world can DM be worse than Romo sits to pee?

[Chachie]

Rapistberger?

Ruthlessraper?

[GreenRiggins]

These are the QB's I would bet that most GM's would rather have than McNabb.

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Peyton Manning

Tony Romo sits to pee

Tom Brady

Phillip Rivers

Ben Rothlesberger

Matt Schaub

Matt Ryan

Jay Cutler

Joe Flacco

Eli Manning

Matt Ryan

Honorable mention: M. Stafford

[Mahons21]

These are the QB's I would bet that most GM's would rather have than McNabb.

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Peyton Manning

Tony Romo sits to pee

Tom Brady

Phillip Rivers

Ben Rothlesberger

Matt Schaub

Matt Ryan

Jay Cutler

Joe Flacco

Eli Manning

Matt Ryan

Honorable mention: M. Stafford

It's not about who a GM would rather have.. Obviously young guys are going to get the nod. It's about who is more talented and there is no way Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Matt Schaub, or Jay Cutler belong on that list. None of them have proven squat compared to McNabb with any sort of consistency.