MattFancy Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Eh I'm in different. We need pitching so its nice to get a 2 for 1 deal, but I'm not jumping for joy over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Click on the link to read the rest.http://www.masnsports.com/amber_theoharis/2012/02/should-orioles-and-nationals-engage-in-trade-talks.html I would trade Detweiler and Lannan in a heartbeat for Adam Jones. Doesn't solve the leadoff spot, but locksdown CF. Leaves the OF crowded when Harper shows up though. Harper, Jones, Werth, has to move Morse to 1B and leave LaRoche on bench. Trade bait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pretty meaningless. We've been trying to trade Guthrie for 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pretty meaningless. We've been trying to trade Guthrie for 3 years. http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/orioles_waited_too_long_to_move_guthrie/9788860?new_post=trueThe Baltimore Orioles should have traded right-hander Jeremy Guthrie at the non-waiver deadline last season, or even before. His value was higher when he was further away from free agency, under greater club control.Instead, the Orioles made a deal that is all too typical of them, waiting too long to move Guthrie and receiving too little in return. They need prospects, genuine prospects, and they did not get one in the deal that they completed with the Colorado Rockies on Monday. Guthrie for right-handed starter Jason Hammel and reliever Matt Lindstrom makes sense in a vacuum. The combined salaries of Hammel and Lindstrom in 2012 will be in the range of Guthrie’s. And the Orioles will trumpet that they acquired a combined four years of control for one. Problem is, Hammel, 29, and Lindstrom, 31, will not be part of the Orioles’ next contending team. They likely will not even help the Orioles advance toward contention. They are mediocre veterans – Lindstrom may be a little better than that - while Guthrie, 32, is a pitcher who had actual value. The word “had” is applicable not because of Guthrie’s performance – he pitched gallantly as a No. 1 starter in the AL East, averaging nearly 200 innings and compiling an ERA-plus of 106 over the past five seasons. But the formula for trades is always the same: The higher a player’s salary, the closer he is to free agency, the less a team gets in return. New Orioles general manager Dan Duquette inherited the situation; his predecessor, Andy MacPhail, was the executive who steadfastly held on to Guthrie. Perhaps Duquette could have made a better deal earlier in the off-season, involving a greater number of suitors. But heck, the Orioles didn’t hire Duquette until Nov. 6. So, welcome to another episode of, “As the Orioles churn.” ... Guthrie might be the best starting pitcher available in July. His value would spike even though he would be only two months from free agency. And here’s the final dagger from the Orioles’ perspective: The Rockies probably could make a better deal for him than the O’s just did. -Ken Rosenthal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcrunch98 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pretty bummed that Guthrie is gone, as he was one of my favorite players. But from a practical standpoint, the Orioles are going to be bad in 2012 with or without him, and he'd likely be gone in 2013. So not going to cry about it. I also think Orioles fans and some columnists had an inflated sense of his trade value. If MacPhail could have gotten anything better for Guthrie six months ago, I think he would have pulled the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBash Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 It's not like Guthrie was that good or anything. The bullpen got better and the SP swap is probably going to be a wash, if not better. Plus, we saved some money. I would have liked to get prospects instead but it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Perhaps Duquette could have made a better deal earlier in the off-season, involving a greater number of suitors. But heck, the Orioles didn’t hire Duquette until Nov. 6.[/QUOTE]with all due respect to the orioles/duquette....numerous candidates kept turning the job/interview down before dd got the job.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Pretty bummed that Guthrie is gone, as he was one of my favorite players.But from a practical standpoint, the Orioles are going to be bad in 2012 with or without him, and he'd likely be gone in 2013. So not going to cry about it. I also think Orioles fans and some columnists had an inflated sense of his trade value. If MacPhail could have gotten anything better for Guthrie six months ago, I think he would have pulled the trigger. It wasn't the fans or the media, it was McPhail. He lived off the Seattle trade and thought he could get that kind of value out of Guthrie. He was the one that overvalued him, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 We didn't save money, or get much better in the short or long run. So I guess we get a space in the rotation and a guy for the pen that won't be embarrassing. Progress? Well, I'll be rooting for Guthrie in Colorado and hopefully these guys we got will help us not have the worst staff in the AL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 We didn't save money, or get much better in the short or long run. So I guess we get a space in the rotation and a guy for the pen that won't be embarrassing. Progress? Well, I'll be rooting for Guthrie in Colorado and hopefully these guys we got will help us not have the worst staff in the AL. Yeah I'm not really sure what we gained out of it. We did need pen arms and Lidstrom should help there. Not sure if Hammel is any better than Guthrie or not. There's alot of work that needs to be done on this team. So we'll see what how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcrunch98 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 The Orioles are clearly trying to stock up on pitchers and hope they get lucky with a few of them, even at the expense of giving up one of the few sure things they had on the mound (Guthrie almost certainly would have been the Opening Day starter). If building depth means that we won't have to see guys like Mitch Atkins, Chris Jakubauskas, and Rick VandenHurk start games for the Orioles in 2012, I can live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 from a value standpoint, i think our team actually got less talented, in that regard id say that this trade was a failure. however, we could have easily lost guthrie to free agency for nothing and i personally, think it was time for the o's to stop depending on a plateaued 4 to 5th starter to face al east number 1's every year. someone has to step up and i think the competition will be beneficial. im not a fan of hammels or lindstrom, though the latter might pose some value as our bullpen is relied upon every day for 5 or so innings. i would have loved to have gotten jhoulys chacin, it seems other teams would have made that trade work... but not the O's. kind of frustrating on how much little we receive for one of our best trading chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 i will defer to smarter people as to whether this was good return for guthrie. but, i don't get the outcry at orioles hangout...i mean, we have lost for years with guthrie, is it really that tragic if we lose without him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcrunch98 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 i will defer to smarter people as to whether this was good return for guthrie. but, i don't get the outcry at orioles hangout...i mean, we have lost for years with guthrie, is it really that tragic if we lose without him? I agree that this team will suck in 2012 with or without Guthrie. I think most of the outcry stems from many believing we could have gotten a better return for him, either individually or as part of a package. With a few exceptions, the Orioles have a habit of breaking a dollar in exchange for 3 quarters on the trade front, and that math doesn't add up. Combine that with their misses in free agency and their awful player development, and you have the recipe for a perennial last place team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovetoaster Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Honestly, as much as I like Guthrie, he did not have much trade value. His trade value has gone down every year and as a team that was not going anywhere, he should have been dealt two years ago or at worst last year. We could have held on to him and traded him at the deadline, but there are a lot of risks involved there and I am not at all upset with the return that we got here. Hammel is very similar to Guthrie, just younger, cheaper and under team control for longer. Lindstrom is a power arm that could be a good 8th inning guy and can close if need be. We are not saving much money, and the deal probably does not make the team better in 3-4 years when hopefully we will be better. But in reality, we really could not have expected a good haul. It is not a great deal by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think we could have done much better. I understand people wanting prospects, but Guthrie just was not going to net any prospects of value. We could have done much, much better if a deal was made at some point in the last two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree that this team will suck in 2012 with or without Guthrie. I think most of the outcry stems from many believing we could have gotten a better return for him, either individually or as part of a package. With a few exceptions, the Orioles have a habit of breaking a dollar in exchange for 3 quarters on the trade front, and that math doesn't add up. Combine that with their misses in free agency and their awful player development, and you have the recipe for a perennial last place team. I tend to disagree about our recent history with trades. It almost seems that McPhail held out too long and only pulled the trigger when he felt he won the trades. Overall though, I guess I see the point. Still, I think we overrate Guthrie a bit and I doubt any team would have parted with even a decent prospect for a #3/4 starter who will soon become a FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It is not a great deal by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think we could have done much better. I understand people wanting prospects, but Guthrie just was not going to net any prospects of value. We could have done much, much better if a deal was made at some point in the last two years. Pretty much my feelings. I don't ever think we would've gotten a good haul for him, but what we got back is decent value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Pretty much my feelings. I don't ever think we would've gotten a good haul for him, but what we got back is decent value. At the end of the day, it's probably a wash for 2012 and maybe some upside, but not much. Guthrie is probably a better starter than the guy we got, but an extra credible arm in the pen helps. So in a sense of adding "talent" you can see the benefits for making the deal. But for a fanbase that is waiting for something to happen (Outside of the some much needed international stuff), a MEH trade is only going to infuriate fans. Fans that really liked Guthrie as a fan favorite. I do wonder if this move is also more of the, "It's you or nothing" message to the much maligned group of young starters. I think much of the organization believes in a healthy Matsuz and JakeA as well as a more experienced Britton and Hunter will decide if the rebuild needs a reboot. And it just may need that, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan44 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 At the end of the day, it's probably a wash for 2012 and maybe some upside, but not much. Guthrie is probably a better starter than the guy we got, but an extra credible arm in the pen helps. So in a sense of adding "talent" you can see the benefits for making the deal. But for a fanbase that is waiting for something to happen (Outside of the some much needed international stuff), a MEH trade is only going to infuriate fans. Fans that really liked Guthrie as a fan favorite. I do wonder if this move is also more of the, "It's you or nothing" message to the much maligned group of young starters. I think much of the organization believes in a healthy Matsuz and JakeA as well as a more experienced Britton and Hunter will decide if the rebuild needs a reboot. And it just may need that, sadly. I don't think much was being offered to the Os for Gutherie back at the trading deadline...so they had a line on his true value vs what he could have been given in arbitration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The young guys will have to step up this year. Its pretty much make or break for them. So I don't mind the FO going all in with them this year. But if they fail, we better do something to address that next offseason or even at the trade deadline this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdcskins Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I saw on the bottom line this morning that the O's were in "preliminary talks" with Manny Ramirez. My gut feeling is stay away but I figure he could bring some intrigue to the stadium in times of boredom. As long as he doesn't get too much of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I saw that Manny thing last night. I was thinking of mentioning it in here, but figured someone would be me to it, but I thought I'd let it stay on the lowdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twenty-eight Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hammel could be better than Guthrie ... http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orioles-rockies-trade-jeremy-guthrie-jason-hammel/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Please don't sign Manny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hammel could be better than Guthrie ... http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orioles-rockies-trade-jeremy-guthrie-jason-hammel/ I think the Rockies got the better end of the deal. IMO, it's a mistake to only consider his stats especially on this team with little run support and in this brutal division. Guthrie's stuff is underrated and his age very much overrated. I think this could be another stinker like the Hernandez deal. Just my take and I confess that I've never seen Hammel pitch one inning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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