Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[TradeTheBeal!]

Par for the course for Israel.

[redskins59]

The activists were mostly from Europe, supposedly. Of course the activists are gonna resist Israeli commandos storming their ships. That's what activists do. Seems obvious to me that the commandos overreacted.

Any way you look at it, Israel's popularity rating is about to plummet some more because European activists are involved here. It's not a very popular country in the first place.

[AsburySkinsFan]

friends are a good thing...thanks Larry for calling out my embodiment of doofus.

[Mad Mike]

I was going to respond to this thread but there is too much insanity to make a rational response worth while.

Instead, I'll just post another take on the story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

In a sign the soldiers didn't anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds. They said they resorted to lethal handgun fire after they were assaulted.

Those evil ****s. [/sarc]

[redskins59]

I was going to respond to this thread but there is too much insanity to make a rational response worth while.

Instead, I'll just post another take on the story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Those evil ****s. [/sarc]

How many Israeli commandos died? If the answer is zero, then its obvious that they overreacted. How about using pepper spray or something?

[Larry]

I was going to respond to this thread but there is too much insanity to make a rational response worth while.

Instead, I'll just post another take on the story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

In a sign the soldiers didn't anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds. They said they resorted to lethal handgun fire after they were assaulted.

Those evil ****s. [/sarc]

Yeah, cause the military troops boarding an unarmed ship in international waters, well, that wasn't an assault. The unarmed civilians, resisting, that was an assault.

(Although, I do have to also admit to the urge to pull out the "brought a camera to a gunfight" line, too.)

----------

On a more serious not, though: Isn't it conceivable that the people who were forceably boarding an unarmed passenger ship, and the civilians resisting armed troops, were both wrong?

Nah. Couldn't be.

[boobiemiles]

Just another problem for Obama to dela with. How do you teach grown children to play nicely?

Israel is armed to the teeth and paraniod. That is a deadly combination.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Just another problem for Obama to dela with. How do you teach grown children to play nicely?

Israel is armed to the teeth and paraniod. That is a deadly combination.

Damn good question

[Ryman of the North]

Not that I expect anyone to admit they were wrong or any sort of rational response to the fact that the Israelis werent even carrying real guns as their primary weapons but this quote pretty much says it all.

A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

So this whole flotilla was a sham, interesting.

[redskins59]

Not that I expect anyone to admit they were wrong or any sort of rational response to the fact that the Israelis werent even carrying real guns as their primary weapons but this quote pretty much says it all.

A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

So this whole flotilla was a sham, interesting.

Doesn't matter whether they were on a humanitarian mission or not. They were civilians.

[Burgold]

Doesn't matter whether they were on a humanitarian mission or not. They were civilians.

Well.... if they're mission was to break the blockade and barge their way through, then what is Israel supposed to do. If civilians can't be touched than no embargo or blockade will ever work. They would just thumb their noses and moon the military as they ignore them.

The U.S. has sanctions against Iran. Are you suggesting that US civillian corporations should be able to trade freely with Iran and not be hindered in any way.

[redskins59]

Well.... if they're mission was to break the blockade and barge their way through, then what is Israel supposed to do. If civilians can't be touched than no embargo or blockade will ever work. They would just thumb their noses and moon the military as they ignore them.

The U.S. has sanctions against Iran. Are you suggesting that US civillian corporations should be able to trade freely with Iran and not be hindered in any way.

You don't kill civilians, period. There are other ways to deal with this type of situation without resorting to violence. You can incapacitate people without actually killing them.

[Koala]

Okay, anyone who didnt see this coming from literally a 1000 miles a way is kidding themselves.

Israel's remarkably poor diplomacy continues to flounder under Liebermans' leadership.

This whole incident was obviously created by Turkey in order to embarrass Israel, a payback for perceived slights from Israel. They knew Israel wasnt gonna let the supplies in, they knew the ships contained some protesters who would raise a ruckus, and they know Israel wouldnt tolerate any threat to its soldiers.

Israel, for its part, obviously wanted the protesters to goad the soldiers into live fire. They purposefully sent the first batch of soldiers in with no live ammunition, so that when they were inevitably thrown into a violent confrontation, fewer people would question the need for live fire.

My question to Israel is why they continue to miscalculate the mood of the region as a whole. This **** might have flown a few years ago, but the dynamics of the region and the world have changed. Whatever little sympathy used to exist for Israel is long gone.

As of now, the consistent images people are seeing on the news isnt of Israeli buses being bombed, its of Gaza being blockaded and Israel opening fire on aid ships. Throw out the context of the situation, noone gives a damn about context, this is the ADD-era, and 30 second sound-bytes and images rule over reason and analysis.

Israel needs to catch up the modern arithmetic of geopolitics. It is now losing the propaganda war, badly. Hamas, meanwhile, sits back and laughs, cause all they have to do to win is to do nothing.

Lieberman is a fool, Netanyahu is a boob. Just as the Palestinians badly miscalculated by electing Hamas and thus losing much international support, so the Israelis have ****ed up by electing this gang of fools. Democracy is grand, no?

[Koala]

no it was actually in the several millions, perhaps study your own history before ranting about Israel. seriously you sound like a typical left wing university kid who hasnt actually read a book.

Which several million do you refer to Ryman? The several million Natives, which u rather vehemntly assured me was nothing on the proportion of the holocaust, or the several million slaves, which you again called me an idiot for making a big deal out of. So which is it, no crime in history even vaguely compares to the holocaust, or did America itself commit crimes that were pretty nasty even in comparison to the holocaust. Im just wonderiing. Hmmm.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Tom Clancy had a scenario similar to this in one of his books but for the life of me I can't remember which one, anyways he basically tells a story about a Palestinian group learning the art of non-violent protest only to be beaten by Israeli police.

How totally ironic that Hamas is now winning the world's favor and Israel is loosing it. I wonder how long it will be before someone starts screaming antisemitism.

[FanboyOf91]

Tom Clancy had a scenario similar to this in one of his books but for the life of me I can't remember which one, anyways he basically tells a story about a Palestinian group learning the art of non-violent protest only to be beaten by Israeli police.

Sum of All Fears.

[Burgold]

You don't kill civilians, period. There are other ways to deal with this type of situation without resorting to violence. You can incapacitate people without actually killing them.

Like using guns filled with paintballs and only resorting to a higher level of force when attacked with crowbars and other weapons?

I guess it's awful easy when you live in a black and white world.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Sum of All Fears.

Yep that's the one.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Like using guns filled with paintballs and only resorting to a higher level of force when attacked with crowbars and other weapons?

I guess it's awful easy when you live in a black and white world.

Explain why they boarded the ship in international waters....with their paintball guns.

[Ryman of the North]

You don't kill civilians, period. There are other ways to deal with this type of situation without resorting to violence. You can incapacitate people without actually killing them.

yeah, first you warn the people organising the blockade breaking effort, then you use non lethal methods of interdiction (such as the non lethal anti personell weapons they were primarily armed with) then if they STILL RESIST and even fire lethal weapons at you, you respond with force.

in other words exactly what happened here.

I agree that you never target civilians, even though our countries may have done so in WW2 you dont do that anymore, however as stated , once civilians purposefully put themselves in harms way all bets are off.

[Ryman of the North]

Which several million do you refer to Ryman? The several million Natives, which u rather vehemntly assured me was nothing on the proportion of the holocaust, or the several million slaves, which you again called me an idiot for making a big deal out of. So which is it, no crime in history even vaguely compares to the holocaust, or did America itself commit crimes that were pretty nasty even in comparison to the holocaust. Im just wonderiing. Hmmm.

You compared what happened to MY people with the holocaust? actually im reasonably sure you compared palestine with the holocaust and indirectly with the suppresion of of the north americans, I have never said that what happened to my people wasnt wrong and harsh, but I have said that in scale as well as execution it was nothing like the holocaust, for one thing the average american even as bigoted as they may have been in the 1800's would never have put up with death camps, thus the whole smallpox in blankets type stuff was done on the downlow and not out in the open.

[Ryman of the North]

Explain why they boarded the ship in international waters....with their paintball guns.

because they have an openly acknowledged embargo? did you see the part where the people organising it admitted that it really WASNT a humanitarian mission?

[redskins59]

Like using guns filled with paintballs and only resorting to a higher level of force when attacked with crowbars and other weapons?

I guess it's awful easy when you live in a black and white world.

A person using a crowbar as a weapon doesn't have to be killed. How about shooting in the legs, for example. Or how about pepper spray? The commandos went for the kill, which is overdoing it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

because they have an openly acknowledged embargo? did you see the part where the people organising it admitted that it really WASNT a humanitarian mission?

Until that ship crosses into Israeli waters, they have ZERO authority to board it.

BTW, I believe what you really meant to say was that it wasn't "only a humanitarian mission", I mean if we're going for accuracy of facts in this matter.

[redskins59]

yeah, first you warn the people organising the blockade breaking effort, then you use non lethal methods of interdiction (such as the non lethal anti personell weapons they were primarily armed with) then if they STILL RESIST and even fire lethal weapons at you, you respond with force.

in other words exactly what happened here.

I agree that you never target civilians, even though our countries may have done so in WW2 you dont do that anymore, however as stated , once civilians purposefully put themselves in harms way all bets are off.

CNN is reporting that two of the weapons carried by Israeli commandos got stolen. My question is, how did the activists figure out which guns had real bullets in them? Israelis are obviously hiding something here. This also tells me that the commandos weren't carrying paintball guns only. Also, if only 2 guns got stolen, why did 9 people end up dying? If you get attacked by someone who has a knife, and you have a gun, you can easily shoot him in the legs.

Not even one Israeli commando ended up dying. A few injuries here and there, but nothing serious. So, yes, Israeli commandos overreacted.