Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[Burgold]

I guess I don't see it. :whoknows:

werd vs word

I'm not sure if you're defending Israel here or those on the ship.

Possibly both.

Agreed, but it has yet to be established that the people on the ship were guilty of anything prior to being boarded illegally.

Well, here's the thing. If you're a cop and you get a tip that an ex husband with a history of beating his wife is going after her again. This poor woman has got a restraining order and the guy has threatened to get her and says no one is going to stop him. You believe this threat and he's driving into her neighborhood. He's driving down her street. He's parking at her driveway. At what point do you say... nah, we don't need to let this **** enter the house and hit her again. We got the plans. We know his destination. Let's stop him this time before he hurts someone.

[ardowling]

A person using a crowbar as a weapon doesn't have to be killed. How about shooting in the legs, for example. Or how about pepper spray? The commandos went for the kill, which is overdoing it.

You do know that there are major arteries in the legs which when hit would cause a person to bleed out very quickly (Sean Taylor for example). You shoot center mass to stop the target, and I can assure you that if they had went for the kill everyone on that ship would have died. Now I know if I am a peace loving "activist" and a group of armed Soldiers fast rope on to my ship the last thing I am going to do is engage them, such action would pretty much insure that I go home alive.

[AsburySkinsFan]

werd vs word

Still don't get it, but since I was using the numeral 2 I figured that I'd just go ahead and spell the next one wrongish. lol

Possibly both.

This is the difficulty here because in the end it was the Israelis who were the aggressors.

Well, here's the thing. If you're a cop and you get a tip that an ex husband with a history of beating his wife is going after her again. This poor woman has got a restraining order and the guy has threatened to get her and says no one is going to stop him. You believe this threat and he's driving into her neighborhood. He's driving down her street. He's parking at her driveway. At what point do you say... nah, we don't need to let this **** enter the house and hit her again. We got the plans. We know his destination. Let's stop him this time before he hurts someone.

But, our laws do not give authority out of someone's jurisdiction, so if you're analogy was that the police officer drove across state lines and stopped someone who he suspected might commit a crime, no judge in the land allows that arrest to stand.

[Kilmer17]

Hmmm. Israel has a well known and internationally supported blockade. so this group of folks decide that they dont need to play by the rules. Israel warns them not to, and tells them they will meet this fate if they ignore the warning. The idiots ignore them, face the consequences that they were told would occur.

And now, the usual sorts of anti semites are condemning Israel.

Nothing new to see her.

What SHOULD they have done?

[AsburySkinsFan]

What SHOULD they have done?

Ummm gee I dunno maybe they could have waited until they actually committed a crime. :whoknows:

[Kilmer17]

Ummm gee I dunno maybe they could have waited until that actually committed a crime. :whoknows:

A crime defined by whom? You? No thanks. The folks got exactly what they deserved. Maybe folks in the future will adhere to blockades that Israel needs to ensure it's citizens safety.

[AsburySkinsFan]

A crime defined by whom? You? No thanks. The folks got exactly what they deserved. Maybe folks in the future will adhere to blockades that Israel needs to ensure it's citizens safety.

LOL, you're telling me 9 people deserved to die for floating on the ocean? By all means blockade military aid, but for crying out loud it is immoral to blockade humanitarian aid.

"Got what they deserved" good grief, I'm so glad you're not in charge.

Oh and just a thought, but how about a crime defined by international law, just a thought.

[Larry]

Not that I expect anyone to admit they were wrong or any sort of rational response to the fact that the Israelis werent even carrying real guns as their primary weapons but this quote pretty much says it all.

No, you want it to say it all.

Some people would claim that

Number of civilians shot: 9

Number of Israelis shot: 0

Says it all.

[Kilmer17]

LOL, you're telling me 9 people deserved to die for floating on the ocean? By all means blockade military aid, but for crying out loud it is immoral to blockade humanitarian aid.

"Got what they deserved" good grief, I'm so glad you're not in charge.

They were warned. The Israeli army has a duty to block EVERYONE. Not only that, they have to assume that any ship is carrying supplies for the Terrorist Govt.

too bad. More terrorist sympathisers dead. good. Great actually.

Im sure youd let EVERYONE through and then condemn Israel for something when it turned out the ships had rockets on them.

this never happens if those morons heeded the warnings from Israel.

[Larry]

yeah, first you warn the people organising the blockade breaking effort, then you use non lethal methods of interdiction (such as the non lethal anti personell weapons they were primarily armed with) then if they STILL RESIST and even fire lethal weapons at you, you respond with force.

in other words exactly what happened here.

Uh, you got any support for your claim that the Israelis were fired upon?

[Larry]

because they have an openly acknowledged embargo? did you see the part where the people organising it admitted that it really WASNT a humanitarian mission?

No, they didn't. At least, not in the quote you posted.

[Larry]

A person using a crowbar as a weapon doesn't have to be killed. How about shooting in the legs, for example. Or how about pepper spray? The commandos went for the kill, which is overdoing it.

Disagree.

Come at me with a crowbar when I've got a gun in my hand, and I'm targeting your center of mass.

(Now, is that what happened here? I dunno. But yeah, a crowbar is a deadly weapon, and I'm not going to let you get close enough for me to use pepper spray, even if I had it.)

"So, I put down my sword, and you put down your rock, and we try to kill each other like civilized people?"

[Burgold]

No, you want it to say it all.

Some people would claim that

Number of civilians shot: 9

Number of Israelis shot: 0

Says it all.

Not really. A knife. A crowbar. Another kind of weapon can be equally threatening, equally dangerous. You're using addition to try to explain calculus.

Honestly, if someone came at you with a crowbar in a dark alley. Rather, let's say six guys came at you with weapons in an alley and you had a gun. Would you use it? What would you think their intent was? They provoked a reaction.

Now, should Israel have waited for the boat to get a mile or ten miles closer? When you already know its itenerary and its destination? Was there any question where it was going or what it's purpose was?

Edit: Okay, I'm confused. I've read other things that you wrote and maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say here, Larry.

[HailGreen28]

Ummm gee I dunno maybe they could have waited until they actually committed a crime. :whoknows:

Relevant info

------------------------------------------

PART III

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

-----------------------------------

To make a long story short, this convoy had announced before-hand they were going to breach the blockade. The Israelis had the "reasonable grounds" to board and inspect the ships. 5 of the ships, there was no incident. The sixth ship, passengers attacked the Israelis that boarded.

Then as usual, Palestinian "activists" do their best to escalate the situation and get propaganda.

[Larry]

Edit: Okay, I'm confused. I've read other things that you wrote and maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say here, Larry.

I'm trying to say that "Israel blameless, protesters should have died" and "Never ever kill civilians" are both idiotic statements.

[AsburySkinsFan]

They were warned. The Israeli army has a duty to block EVERYONE. Not only that, they have to assume that any ship is carrying supplies for the Terrorist Govt.

too bad. More terrorist sympathisers dead. good. Great actually.

Im sure youd let EVERYONE through and then condemn Israel for something when it turned out the ships had rockets on them.

this never happens if those morons heeded the warnings from Israel.

Ok, now you just sound like the old MassSkinsFan and Sarge...as such I'm done with you here.

[Kilmer17]

Ok, now you just sound like the old MassSkinsFan and Sarge...as such I'm done with you here.

Sticks and Stones are no match for facts and figures.

[Mad Mike]

A person using a crowbar as a weapon doesn't have to be killed. How about shooting in the legs, for example. Or how about pepper spray? The commandos went for the kill, which is overdoing it.

Yeah, because You cant kill anyone with a crowbar.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=wCG&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=killed+with+a+crowbar&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Seriously dude. Someone comes at me with a crowbar and I have a gun, that's a dead mother ______.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Sticks and Stones are no match for facts and figures.

Apparently they aren't any match for international borders either.

[Kilmer17]

Apparently they aren't any match for international borders either.

Next time Israel should just threaten to uphold their blockade rather than actually doing it right?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Next time Israel should just threaten to uphold their blockade rather than actually doing it right?

Or you know, wait until the people actually commit a crime by crossing illegally into Israeli waters....but they didn't...and 9 people died because Israel illegally attacked a vessel in international waters.

Your logic sounds very much like that of Kim Jong Il in North Korea.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

They were warned. The Israeli army has a duty to block EVERYONE. Not only that, they have to assume that any ship is carrying supplies for the Terrorist Govt.

too bad. More terrorist sympathisers dead. good. Great actually.

Im sure youd let EVERYONE through and then condemn Israel for something when it turned out the ships had rockets on them.

this never happens if those morons heeded the warnings from Israel.

Have you ever seen what life is like in Gaza? All the starving kids? You label things way to easily. But I suppose it makes life more easy for you when everything is black and white.

[Prosperity]

yup... Israel unlawfully boarded a ship trying to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza in international waters, then when the crew defended themselves they killed them.

yup, clear cut case of Israelis defending themselves against anti-semites

nothing to see here, move along

[Kilmer17]

Or you know, wait until the people actually commit a crime by crossing illegally into Israeli waters....but they didn't...and 9 people died because Israel illegally attacked a vessel in international waters.

Your logic sounds very much like that of Kim Jong Il in North Korea.

Abd that is the flaw in your ever standing anti semitic diatribes.

The proper comparison is NK to Hamas.

Israel has the right and duty to defend themselves.

Your oposition isnt because this happened in International waters. Nobody buys that. Your simply continuing your support for everything anti israel. Maybe next time a group of terroristy supporters tell Israel they wont follow the rules and Israel tells them what will happen, they will listen and avoid this kind iof incident.

The people who organized this are solely to blame.

[Mad Mike]

LOL, you're telling me 9 people deserved to die for floating on the ocean? By all means blockade military aid, but for crying out loud it is immoral to blockade humanitarian aid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

The Israeli government had urged the flotilla not to try to breach the blockade before the ships set sail from waters off Cyprus on Sunday and offered to take some aid in for them.

A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission.