Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[Larry]

The people who organized this stunt are the ones to blame here. They were looking for a confrontation with the intent to cast the Israelis in a negative light. The Israelis made the mistake of boarding those ships in international waters. If they would have just waited until those ships entered Israeli waters this wouldn't be such a big deal.

Right. Because preventing food from reaching refugees who you are intentionally starving, well, everybody approves of that, as long as it's done on the proper side of an invisible line.

The purpose of this convoy was to show the world that Israel is using military force to prevent food from reaching people who are starving.

Only way Israel comes out of this without PR damage is to let the convoy through. Anything else, they look like thugs.

(That's one of the problems with being thugs.)

[JMS]

Ring ring ring. Darwin calling.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100601/D9G2GHNG0.html

It's all about the press, public opinion, and the fight for moral high ground.... If Israel attacks and kills more folks on the second flotila, she will be caught in a lie about the first "botched" operation...

If Israel doesn't block the second flotila, the activists will have won and skirted Israel's blockade of Gaza.

Look for Israel to disable the second flotila without the loss of life far from her own territorial waters.

[twa]

Right. Because preventing food from reaching refugees who you are intentionally starving, well, everybody approves of that, as long as it's done on the proper side of an invisible line.

The purpose of this convoy was to show the world that Israel is using military force to prevent food from reaching people who are starving.

Got any examples of starving Gazan's??

The UN program designed to prevent that would disagree

[Larry]

So, folks: How do we prevent this from escalating?

(I'm assuming that we want to prevent it from escalating.)

My suggestion of a US aid convoy, on US ships, still stands.

[UK_HOG]

Now, if they seized these ships in international waters then they stormed the ship then Israel has a whole other situation to deal with in the violation of international maritime law.

Since when has Israel cared about any kind of law.

http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1372

[JMS]

Right. Because preventing food from reaching refugees who you are intentionally starving, well, everybody approves of that, as long as it's done on the proper side of an invisible line.

The purpose of this convoy was to show the world that Israel is using military force to prevent food from reaching people who are starving.

Only way Israel comes out of this without PR damage is to let the convoy through. Anything else, they look like thugs.

(That's one of the problems with being thugs.)

I agree, The activists are trying to demonstrate the thugery of the Israeli policy...

From an Israeli perspective though the blockade is justified. The folks in Gaza did elect Hamas, and Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel. Hell they regularly fire rockets into Israel.... From an Israeli perspective this justifies the blockade, deprivation and systematic starvation of 1.5 million Palistinians in Gaza.

The world however is a lot more sympathetic to the plight of the Palistinians than the Israeli's. This flotilla approach is playing on this international sympathy to not only highlight existing Israeli policy, but also expose the willingness of the Israeli's to kill unarmed activists to protect this policy.

[JMS]

Now, if they seized these ships in international waters then they stormed the ship then Israel has a whole other situation to deal with in the violation of international maritime law.

The ships were in international waters when fired upon, boarded and seized, in that order. That's not in dispute. They were 70 miles off shore of Gaza.

[JMS]

So, folks: How do we prevent this from escalating?

(I'm assuming that we want to prevent it from escalating.)

My suggestion of a US aid convoy, on US ships, still stands.

You are assuming the United States is on the side of the blockade breakers in this dispute. US policy generally supports Israel, it doesn't oppose it....

The Israeli's are heavy handed and that heavy hand is getting publisized; but they aren't outside of their rights here. It's not like Hamas is a non violent group who Israel is pursecuting for the fun of it. It's also not like the supplies in the flotila aren't going directly too Hamas.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Israel claims that they were attacked first. Then they admit they fired paintball guns first.

They claim there were knives. They were only table knives (rumor)

I just saw the video of commandos being beaten and hit with what looked like rods.

Who knows what really happend.

Egypt is opening up a passage for the next two ships.

I also heard that Hezbollah and Syria and gearing up to attack Israel. Powder Keg...

[DixieFlatline]

The ships were in international waters when fired upon, boarded and seized, in that order. That's not in dispute. They were 70 miles off shore of Gaza.

I have yet to see a report that definitely states Israel fired first. From what I can tell, it's still one group's against another on how it transpired. If you have a source that unequivocally proves that Israel fired first, I would like to see it.

I have seen part of the video that shows the troops boarding, getting beat upon, and not retaliating right away. I need to watch the rest of it though.

[19Skins72]

I have to wonder about people that seem to think one side in the Israel/Palestine situation is good and the other evil. If you objectively look at this you see a lot of bad all over the place and it's easy to see that the situation is not sustainable. Both sides do things that would, anywhere on the planet, lead to violence.

The US needs to get out of this and tell both sides "good luck"

I side with Destino on this so long as we also stop financially supporting Israel's military - you can't really wash your hands of the conflict if you are arming one side and not the other.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

I have yet to see a report that definitely states Israel fired first. From what I can tell, it's still one group's against another on how it transpired. If you have a source that unequivocally proves that Israel fired first, I would like to see it.

.

Israel's Ambassador to the US said commandos fired first. But they fired paintballs.

[JMS]

Got any examples of starving Gazan's??

The UN program designed to prevent that would disagree

Three United States Congressional leaders who visited Gaza in Feb 2010 disagree with you.. The US aid convoy which they accompanied was not permited through the ISraeli blockade.

"People, innocent children, women and non-combatants, are going without water, food and sanitation, while the things they so desperately need are sitting in trucks at the border, being denied permission to go in," he said. "The stories about the children affected me the most," said US congressman Keith Ellison from Minnesota. "No parent, or anyone who cares for kids, can remain unmoved by what Brian (US representatives Brian Baird) and I saw here."

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/02/kerrys-gaza-visit-shows-that-the-avalanche-is-beginning-to-move.html

Actually the UN nor any other group has been permited to regularly distribute aid in Gaza under blockade. Even the US aid convoys do not consistantly get through the Israeli blockade.

One could easily understand why weapons and such are excluded from Gaza, but the Israeli blockade extends well beyond weapons and includes such things instant coffee, pasta, cement, medicine, and medical equipment.

Basically anything which could be seen as a luxury item or be used by Hamas to support it's efforts in offensive or defensive actions against Israel and then some.....

Example.... Israel allows some rice into Gaza, sporatically; but would not allow American macaroni or spegetii into Gaza because they considered it a luxury item as noted by Senator Kerry. It's a harsh 3 year blockade designed to break down palistinian resistance, where any bad behavior by the Gazains are met with a closure of boarder crossings and further tightenning of the already insufficient supplies allowed into Gaza.

[19Skins72]

I have yet to see a report that definitely states Israel fired first. From what I can tell, it's still one group's against another on how it transpired. If you have a source that unequivocally proves that Israel fired first, I would like to see it.

I have seen part of the video that shows the troops boarding, getting beat upon, and not retaliating right away. I need to watch the rest of it though.

Dixie, from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter who fired first - from what we know the ship was in international waters, and assuming it was, anyone on those ships had the legal right to defend themselves from an illegal boarding.

I can see the risk being worth it for Israel had the ships been smuggling weapons - since they weren't (to our knowledge), the whole thing is a fiasco for the Israelis.

[Larry]

Who knows what really happend

Oh, I think there are lots of things that are uncontested.

A convoy of ships carrying food and supplies left Turkey, bound for Gaza.

They were accompanied by a cruise ship carrying reporters, celebrities, and activists.

The Israelis told them that they would not be allowed through the blockade.

The convoy left anyway.

The Israelis halted (or tried to halt) the ships in international waters, and sent helicopter-carried commandos to board the ships.

In at least the case of the cruise ship, the soldiers were attacked as they attempted to board, apparently by civilians using whatever was at hand.

The soldiers opened fire, killing 9 and wounding 40 civilians.

All of the civilians (and the cargo ships?) were then taken to Israel, where they are being held without outside contact.

[Thiebear]

Why would you move the majority of the people out of their lands, rather than resettle the minority? If resettling is a tactic you think would work, which I don't believe it is.

I thought i made myself perfectly clear:

As the parents of the world we have let these two children fight long enough. It's time to step in and seperate them to different parts of the house.

As part of the after action review: You put the World Security Organizations into the locations and use it as a learning tool for the next 2000 years. (nobody allowed to live there other than employees) No fly zone, no staging area... nothing.

That is the ONLY way to succeed.

Both were put there, and both have failed miserably.

It's time to end it.

[JMS]

Israel's Ambassador to the US said commandos fired first. But they fired paintballs.

An Israeli Knesset member who was on the flotila said the Israeli's fired on the ships before the commandos even boarded the ships.

[Mad Mike]

Since when has Israel cared about any kind of law.

http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1372

Nice website. Is that your standard reading material?

Here's one for you...

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

[WVUforREDSKINS]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/syria-lebanon-say-flotilla-attack-can-lead-to-war.html

May 31, 2010

Syrian President Bashar al—Assad and Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri said on Monday that Israel’s attack on a flotilla of aid bound for Gaza threatens to ignite a war in the region.

Syria and Lebanon “condemn the heinous crime committed by Israel through the brutal attacks on unarmed civilians on board the Freedom Flotilla,” both leaders said in a joint statement, after a pre— planned meeting in Damascus.

They have warned that Israel’s “violations of basic humanitarian norms and international laws threatens to plunge the Middle East into a war which will not only affect the region.” Israel’s navy on Monday stormed the flotilla, made up of six boats carrying some 700 pro—Palestinian activists and 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid bound for the Gaza Strip. At least 10 died as a result of the raid

[KDawg]

Israel's Ambassador to the US said commandos fired first. But they fired paintballs.

Paintballs or bullets, it's tough to tell the difference in the heat of the confusion. I'm sure people just freaked when they saw shots fired and didn't even notice it was paintballs until it was too late. Both sides on this one acted like idiots.

The aide folks for trying to cross a blockade, and the Israelis for boarding a ship in international waters.

[Larry]

I can see the risk being worth it for Israel had the ships been smuggling weapons - since they weren't (to our knowledge), the whole thing is a fiasco for the Israelis.

Oh, I'd say based on history that Israel certainly had probable cause to assume that the "humanitarian aid" had weapons hidden in it.

Were there actually weapons?

1) I don't think we'll ever know, one way or the other. At least for me, there's no way I'd believe a report claiming that there were or weren't. Too many liars over there.

2) While I'd certainly think that it would be to the organizers advantage for there to not be any weapons at all, (makes them look more noble and all), I'll also say that I wouldn't bet a whole lot on there not being a single weapon, anywhere in the convoy.

3) I don't really think it matters much, either way. I think almost everybody (yes, there are some real partisans out there. In here, too.) would agree that Israel has a legitimate justification for checking for weapons, whether they're there or not. And almost everybody would agree that they don't have the right to blockade things other than weapons.

[JMS]

I thought i made myself perfectly clear:

As the parents of the world we have let these two children fight long enough. It's time to step in and seperate them to different parts of the house.

As part of the after action review: You put the World Security Organizations into the locations and use it as a learning tool for the next 2000 years. (nobody allowed to live there other than employees) No fly zone, no staging area... nothing.

That is the ONLY way to succeed.

Both were put there, and both have failed miserably.

It's time to end it.

I'm kind of speechless. How can you equate Israel with a child? She's a regional superpower with as many nuclear weapons as such security councel states like the UK or France. I don't think you are going to be able to "resettle" her citizens without a fight. Likewise the Palistinians who are recently again the majority of people in the territory controled by Israel, have themselves been conducting a many decades long a symetical violent oposition to Israel occupation. Any international attempt to dislodge them could similarly be expected to result in a sustained violent struggle.

My own solution is much more modest. Suppress all violence through carrots and sticks directed at the protagonists. Allow the moderates on both sides to grown in numbers and authority. Then facilitate some hard decisions on property, boarders, and resources; resulting in equal rights and protections for all the folks in the territory.

[JMS]

I have yet to see a report that definitely states Israel fired first. From what I can tell, it's still one group's against another on how it transpired. If you have a source that unequivocally proves that Israel fired first, I would like to see it.

Well we know the Israeli's are the only ones who brought guns to the confrontation. We also know the Israeli's are continuing to hold most of the witnesses after having seized the ships. The ships were not armed, and were in international waters according to Hanin Zoabi, an Israeli Knesset member who was on board the ships at the time of the boarding.

I don't think Israel suspected weapons on board the ships, however the ships which were inspected before they left port did list items like cement, medicine, and medical equipment; which were prohibited by the Israeli blockade.

I have seen part of the video that shows the troops boarding, getting beat upon, and not retaliating right away. I need to watch the rest of it though.

I've seen the videos it's hard to tell anything from them. It boggles my mind to imagine a flotillar of a few hundred unarmed civilians being confronted by elite armed oposition resulting in casualties only to the unarmed folks taking place in international waters; where the armed folks can be called not responsible.

[Mad Mike]

An Israeli Knesset member who was on the flotila said the Israeli's fired on the ships before the commandos even boarded the ships.

Firing "shots across the bow" as a warning is standard practice in any naval interdiction. That's probably what he was referring to.

[JMS]

Dixie, from a legal perspective, it doesn't matter who fired first - from what we know the ship was in international waters, and assuming it was, anyone on those ships had the legal right to defend themselves from an illegal boarding.

It's a canard. The Israeli's claiming the unarmed activists stole the weapons Israel brought on board the ships, and then attacked her soldiers necessistating 40 casualties, and 10 deaths inflicted by the Israeli commandos....

Israel set out to give the activists something to think about. That's exactly what she achieved by bloodying their noses.

I can see the risk being worth it for Israel had the ships been smuggling weapons - since they weren't (to our knowledge), the whole thing is a fiasco for the Israelis.

The Israeli blockade goes way beyond weapons and includes food staples. Israel are systematically starving 1.5 milion palistinians into submission. That's what the entire relief flotila was trying to demonstrate. It's why the activists had the entire flotilla inspected and the manifest confirmed and published before they left port.

It's also why when confronted with deadly force the activists are now going to try it again.... To press the point home further.