Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[Thiebear]

Agreed.

The organizers wanted to show Israel preventing food from reaching starving civilians.

They got it.

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Now, how we get from that fact to the fantasyland claims that well, anybody who tries to get food to starving people when the Mighty Israelis have ordered them no to, not only deserves to die, but they caused it, now that's some mighty fine spinnin' goin' on.

(I covered that in: Based on the video pointing down from the gunship).

You want to call them pirates like a couple others?

Other than that, it should have been a search and release.

Attacking them as they reach the bottom of the ropes CAUSES death.

Lets go over this one more time.

Intentionally breaking a blockade (Bay of Pigs) soon to be Bay of Palestine with the Turks is Blood in the water if one side doesnt back down.

And that my friend is the definition of 'cause'

They were on a cause, and they caused this to happen. They may gain the goal of the original cause by dying for it.

But to say fantasyland is not true. It's reality lived over and over and over again due to the stubborn human idiocy.

I dont see any spin in the above.. only history repeating itself.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Uh, I would point out that the nations of Israel and of Palestine are both less than 100 years old.

It only seems like thousands of years.

I was refering to the Zionist movement

[Larry]

Intentionally breaking a blockade (Bay of Pigs) soon to be Bay of Palestine with the Turks is Blood in the water if one side doesnt back down.

And that my friend is the definition of 'cause'

They were on a cause, and they caused this to happen. They may gain the goal of the original cause by dying for it.

But to say fantasyland is not true. It's reality lived over and over and over again due to the stubborn human idiocy.

Funny. I see a lot of people here who appear to be of the opinion that anyone attempting to break a blockade is always the one who's Wrong.

I suspect that there are a bunch of people in West Berlin who might disagree.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Funny. I see a lot of people here who appear to be of the opinion that anyone attempting to break a blockade is always the one who's Wrong.

And no one ever asks whether a blockade against humanitarian aide is what was wrong to begin with.

I suspect that there are a bunch of people in West Berlin who might disagree.

Well of course Larry, because they were the good guys right? And good guys are supposed to break immoral blockades.

[Ryman of the North]

No, they didn't. At least, not in the quote you posted.

A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584...deastn_africa/

feel free to reread

[AsburySkinsFan]

A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584...deastn_africa/

feel free to reread

Did anyone really think that this was ONLY a humanitarian mission? I'm sorry but I agree with that statement you quoted. This mission was very political and everyone who knew about it knew that it was political and was designed to have Israel shame themselves...and like I said before, Israel played the part to a T.

[Gibbs4Life]

LOL!! So it's Liberal philosophy that says you have to wait until a crime is committed?! LOL!! Odd and here I always thought that was just part of our Constitution.

BTW, it was the Liberal Bush who was in office on 9/11.

Man this thread sucks.

According to that philosphy you would let a terrorist, buy massive amounts of gas and incendiaries, to blow up stuff, because he hasnt actually commited a crime. Thats how rome burns, insane logic like that. If you know someone is going to do something and you have a chance to stop them, then you do it. Your philosphy is why clinton ignored al quada for years, and let 9/11 happen

P.S terrorists and enemy combatants have no constitutional rights. just and fyi

[AsburySkinsFan]

According to that philosphy you would let a terrorist, buy massive amounts of gas and incendiaries, to blow up stuff, because he hasnt actually commited a crime. Thats how rome burns, insane logic like that. If you know someone is going to do something and you have a chance to stop them, then you do it. Your philosphy is why clinton ignored al quada for years, and let 9/11 happen

P.S terrorists and enemy combatants have no constitutional rights. just and fyi

So arrest criminals before they commit a crime...gotcha so what happens when you get a Minority Report? So what exactly do you suggest the Israelis charge the people on these boats with...these people who were in international waters outside of Israel's realm of authority? Floating?

BTW so now 9/11 was Clinton's fault...lol...ok, I bet the Iraq war was Obama's fault too eh...BTW what exactly did Bush do to stop 9/11? Ohhhh...that's right your theory only works when you don't actually have to consider reality.

[Ryman of the North]

heres the thing,

the raid wasnt meant to become violent, hence the primary weapons being non lethal, they were however carrying sidearms that are lethal and once the Palestinians grabbed a couple and started shooting it went from non violent board and search to firefight, this was not precipitated by the Israelis. It should have been a simple search and if nothing military was found perhaps they would have let stuff through, but israel did everything it could to AVOID casualties, yet again the arabs did everything they could to cause them.

what bothers me the most about this whole debacle are the headlines by unresponsible media who didnt wait for the whole story, which is typical when its about israel.

I took some training in my younger days for personal security and for a company I worked for, anyone who thinks that any trained individual will "shoot for the legs" watches too much hollywood, in point of fact any time you go weapons free the reason the fatalities are so high percentage wise is simple, its muscle memory and you shoot center mass and you double tap. so anyone saying the commandos should have reigned it in is being stupid.

[Gibbs4Life]

So arrest criminals before they commit a crime...gotcha so what happens when you get a Minority Report? So what exactly do you suggest the Israelis charge the people on these boats with...these people who were in international waters outside of Israel's realm of authority? Floating?

See thats the part i have a problem with is, this was in international waters, unless they were about to reach gaza i dont see the need to board it. Thats why i said before i dont think there are any winners, it just looks bad all around. If it was closer i would say they had a right to board to keep weapons from reaching the shores, but in this case they could have been doing a ride by, so i dont know its a tough call. I honostly dont know whose in the right here.

Yes it was clintons fault he had obama dead to rights given to him by the saudi's and he let him go. Hence its his fault. And you say its iraq war like its a fault of someone, like its a bad thing. I think the iraq war was a great thing, so take that lol. Lol and bush was in office for 6 months and clinton had been in office during many many attacks. your logic is faulty

[Destino]

So let me get this straight. You guys are arguing which one of these two sides is right:

Side 1 - Embargo blocking everything, including humanitarian aid, to an entire area of disenfranchised civilians because they don't like the violence coming from this region or their choice of leadership.

Side 2 - Attempting to use a humanitarian aid to break an embargo that was imposed due to violence and the election of those supporting terrorism.

You guys have at it for a few dozen more pages and let me know when you've managed to turn that into a black and white situation. Good luck!

[AsburySkinsFan]

heres the thing,

the raid wasnt meant to become violent, hence the primary weapons being non lethal, they were however carrying sidearms that are lethal and once the Palestinians grabbed a couple and started shooting it went from non violent board and search to firefight, this was not precipitated by the Israelis.

Except for the small matter that Israel boarded the ships in international waters in violation of international maritime law...funny when the Somalians do that same thing they call it piracy.

It should have been a simple search and if nothing military was found perhaps they would have let stuff through,

Bull, no way Israel was going to let them through...why else do you think they have blockaded Gaza from the rest of the world? They get no humanitarian aide and that's just the way the Israeli gov't wants it...to their own shame.

but israel did everything it could to AVOID casualties, yet again the arabs did everything they could to cause them.

That's not true, they boarded a sovereign vessel, if they did everything they could to avoid casualties they wouldn't have boarded the ships.

[Destino]

heres the thing,

the raid wasnt meant to become violent,

Don't you just hate when you send armed troops to forcibly board ships and violence just up and breaks out on you? I mean what are the odds?!

and on the other side:

Don't you just hate when troops show up when you're attempting to penetrate an embargo? I mean who could have predicted that?!

[Ryman of the North]

So arrest criminals before they commit a crime...gotcha so what happens when you get a Minority Report? So what exactly do you suggest the Israelis charge the people on these boats with...these people who were in international waters outside of Israel's realm of authority? Floating?

BTW so now 9/11 was Clinton's fault...lol...ok, I bet the Iraq war was Obama's fault too eh...BTW what exactly did Bush do to stop 9/11? Ohhhh...that's right your theory only works when you don't actually have to consider reality.

we agree on many things but on this you are simply flat out wrong, not wrong in your opinion but wrong on your interpretation of the facts.

If someone tells you they are going to jump the barricade at the whitehouse do you wait until they actually have?

If someone tells you flat out that they are going to do something do you wait until the point of no return? your own government now has a shootdown order on unauthorised flights over certain areas of your country.

if this was a simple civilian thing then you would have a point, its not so your point is moot, the blockade is military in nature, the people trying to break it were asked not to proceed, then were boarded AND STILL NOT ATTACKED WITH LETHAL FORCE until THEY started fighting.

does anyone with a working brain think that if Israel wanted to actually kill anyone that the number of dead wouldnt be far far higher?

[Ryman of the North]

Don't you just hate when you send armed troops to forcibly board ships and violence just up and breaks out on you? I mean what are the odds?!

perhaps you need to go and read the actual facts of the situation? but we wouldnt wnat facts to get in the way of a good Israel bash now would we?

boarding a craft with non lethal primary weapons rather than just sinking them for trying to break a blockade seems pretty decent to me.

[AsburySkinsFan]

and bush was in office for 6 months

When exactly is inauguration day? If Bush had wanted Bin Laden dead he had plenty of time.

But we're off topic now, oh and Iraq war a great thing...oh my.

[Ryman of the North]

Except for the small matter that Israel boarded the ships in international waters in violation of international maritime law...funny when the Somalians do that same thing they call it piracy.

Bull, no way Israel was going to let them through...why else do you think they have blockaded Gaza from the rest of the world? They get no humanitarian aide and that's just the way the Israeli gov't wants it...to their own shame.

That's not true, they boarded a sovereign vessel, if they did everything they could to avoid casualties they wouldn't have boarded the ships.

when somalians do it they are trying to steal stuff not prevent people from breaking a blockade.

the blockade is perhaps not the best way to do this but given their choices I cant blame them for it, ffs we arent talking about an innocent regime here but a regime run by terrorists unless you buy the propoganda.

You couldnt be more wrong in that last statement ffs its completely true, they didnt just sink the ships after warning them, they put their own people in harms way to board and search the ships, MOST IMPORTANTLY they only used lethal force once the arabs started fighting.

[AsburySkinsFan]

If someone tells you they are going to jump the barricade at the whitehouse do you wait until they actually have?

You wait until they are on the fence....Israel didn't.

[Ryman of the North]

No my friend, if you think that you dont know your own secret service very well, when I working in security we had a rule about point of no return and your own country has the lowest tolerance for it.

The truth is that if you KNOW someone is going to break the law because they have told you how they are going to do it, you dont wait until they are on the cusp, even if you use that as your measure, they were on the cusp once they left turkish waters in the direction of gaza.

[Destino]

perhaps you need to go and read the actual facts of the situation? but we wouldnt wnat facts to get in the way of a good Israel bash now would we?

boarding a craft with non lethal primary weapons rather than just sinking them for trying to break a blockade seems pretty decent to me.

Nothing that you say here makes me want to change my comment in any way. I know the facts but unlike you I have decided to spray sugar all over one side of this debate. Boarding the ship with nerf bats in hand and pistols on your hip doesn't stop violence, AS WE HAVE SEEN PROVEN. You know who could have predicted this? Anyone that's not a moron.

[Ryman of the North]

LOL most people dont try to attack armed people with improvised weapons, unless of course they are reasonably sure that lethal force wont be applied except under extreme duress.

you wont change your opinion and thats fine, but you obviously had a preconceived opinion anyway, the fact is that yet again Israel was baited into using force and yet again everyone jumps on them for doing what any sane nation would do in the same position.

[NavyDave]

There are times when I fantasize about the possibility of the Palestenians permitting the US to build a military base in their territory.

This base would have it's own power, water and sewage treatment. These utilities would be grossly oversized, and the excess capacity would be provided to the Palestinians. Giving them utilities which are not under Israeli control. As with all military bases, it will have a large hospital which (hopefully) won't be used at anywhere near capacity. Allowing it to provide medical care to the natives.

The base would be located on one of their borders, and the US will serve as customs inspectors. Preventing weapons from crossing the border, but also giving the Palestinians a "port" for international shipments which aren't under Israeli control.

Yeah, it means US troops being stationed somewhere overseas. On an open-ended mission. But to me, if it could lend some stability to that area, it would be the best money we've ever spent.

In my fantasy world everybody wins. The US gains a lot of "cred" for being more neutral. The US gains a base in an area where we'll probably need them for a long time. The Palestinians gain some reliable utilities. Maybe they can build some permanent housing, even. The Israelis get some Palestinians who might decide that hey, this peace thing is kind of nice.

Probably never work.

Pseudo nation building that in theory would eliminate the majority of strife in the region by taking away the victimhood status of a demographic that others in the region have ignored.

Iran, Saudi Arabia and other radicals with hatred towards Israel and Jews couldn't afford to let that happen.

[nonniey]

The ship convoy was mostly a big PR move to challenge the gaza blockade, Congress members from Sweden, Finland, Germany etc. EU parliament politicians and a handful of left leaning celebrities of various stature were on the boats so I doubt they were smuggling guns. They big issue seems be that Israel struck before the boats reached Israeli waters which I guess technically is illegal and obviously the use of deadly force.

Looks like this was set up to be an Information Operations ambush of Israel and they fell right into it.

[Ryman of the North]

Pseudo nation building that in theory would eliminate the majority of strife in the region by taking away the victimhood status of a demographic that others in the region have ignored.

Iran, Saudi Arabia and other radicals with hatred towards Israel and Jews couldn't afford to let that happen.

exactly, the arab world has a vested interest in this conflict and in using the palestinian refugee issue as a breeding ground, they would never let a peace process work, until THATS changed there will be conflict in the ME.

[Destino]

LOL most people dont try to attack armed people with improvised weapons, unless of course they are reasonably sure that lethal force wont be applied except under extreme duress.

This might be true on your planet but it's clearly not the case here.