MurrayH81 Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Civilians who intentionally put themselves in harms way are no longer civilians, just as civilians who attack soldiers are no longer civilians. While I agree that putting ones self in direct harms way is very risky, I have a hard time accepting your initial statement above. Civilians who protest something are still civilians. When they take up arms and attack soldiers, I agree that they have become combatants. I am unsure of what they are if they attempt to defend themselves against unlawful attack (i.e. within International waters, at a peaceful and lawful assembly at which soldiers attack them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 What other reason would they have for doing it? Do you think they randomly choose ships to blow up because they just like killing people? They love killing people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 oh I see, it's all about intent. nothing to see here folks, move along. Israel is innocent. Not saying that either, but we always have differentiated self-defense from homocide. And honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with this definition of self-defense as it is a bit too easy to get away with... but I bet that they had strong intel suggesting that the PR hit and the potential innocent lives lost were worth the risk given what they thought was on the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Not saying that either, but we always have differentiated self-defense from homocide. Israel has not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Israel has not. If you are implying that you think people who tie explosives to their backs for the purpose of blowing up as many people as they can is an act of self-defense... I disagree. Then again, I'm not sure what you're inferring using such an expansive and comprehensive rebuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 If you are implying that you think people who tie explosives to their backs for the purpose of blowing up as many people as they can is an act of self-defense... I disagree.Then again, I'm not sure what you're inferring using such an expansive and comprehensive rebuttle. Israel has carried out the systematic murder of civilians for decades. They are a terrorist state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Not saying that either, but we always have differentiated self-defense from homocide.And honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with this definition of self-defense as it is a bit too easy to get away with... but I bet that they had strong intel suggesting that the PR hit and the potential innocent lives lost were worth the risk given what they thought was on the boat. It sounds like simple harassment that got out of hand when some people fought back. But, still early. I don't see it getting any better for Israel though. As for some notable reactions that quite frankly have more credibility than the US, Israel, or any middle eastern country, doesn't look good. http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1 UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said Monday he was "shocked by reports of killing of people in boats carrying supplies to Gaza. I condemn the violence and Israel must explain."The Spanish and French governments called the action "disproportionate." The Italian foreign minister asked the European Union to investigate, and several nations, including Greece and Sweden, were summoning their Israeli ambassadors. An indignant Turkey recalled its ambassador from Israel, canceled three planned military exercises with the Israeli military and called home its youth national football team, which had two games scheduled in Israel, said Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc. I think Israel has really ****ed themselves here. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Israel has carried out the systematic murder of civilians for decades. They are a terrorist state. Maybe because their "neighbors" are such good examples?Arab states' crimes against Palestinians: For years, they've kept the people dispossessed The refusal of most Arab governments to grant basic legal rights to Palestinian residents who are born in and die in their countries, combined with periodic mass expulsions of entire Palestinian communities, eerily parallels the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe. According to the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, states "shall as far as possible facilitate the assimilation and naturalization of refugees" and "make every effort to expedite naturalization proceedings." http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/10/13/2009-10-13_arab_states_crimes_against_palestinians.html#ixzz0jJKHTNqL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Maybe because their "neighbors" are such good examples? What do Israel's neighbors have to with this conversation? It seems like you go off topic quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 From this new video footage it does look like palestinians attacked israel commandoes first as they dropped onto the ship. If israel came in attacking there would have been alot more dead people. Im not really condoning the attack on the ship, but its a tough situation over there. So i dont know its a tough call. http://www.zerohedge.com/article/israeli-defense-forces-release-video-violence-aboard-turkish-ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Maybe because their "neighbors" are such good examples?Arab states' crimes against Palestinians: For years, they've kept the people dispossessed The refusal of most Arab governments to grant basic legal rights to Palestinian residents who are born in and die in their countries, combined with periodic mass expulsions of entire Palestinian communities, eerily parallels the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe. According to the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, states "shall as far as possible facilitate the assimilation and naturalization of refugees" and "make every effort to expedite naturalization proceedings." http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/10/13/2009-10-13_arab_states_crimes_against_palestinians.html#ixzz0jJKHTNqL Do you even realize how stupidly hypocritical this example is? There are millions of Palestinians under Israeli occupation. Israel should be the ones naturalizing them and giving them a voice, but they can't have that. It is far worse than South Africa was under apartheid. At least South Africa had some sense of morality. Israel's government is headed by terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 From this new video footage it does look like palestinians attacked israel commandoes first as they dropped onto the ship. If israel came in attacking there would have been alot more dead people. Im not really condoning the attack on the ship, but its a tough situation over there. So i dont know its a tough call.http://www.zerohedge.com/article/israeli-defense-forces-release-video-violence-aboard-turkish-ship Israel's action is tantamount to piracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 They have a right to defend themselves, Lol america's had many blockades, does that make us pirates no. Your not using logic to come to your conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 What do Israel's neighbors have to with this conversation? It seems like you go off topic quite a bit.Seems like how Palestinins are treated was brought upSeems like being "Savages and Murderers" is a Human Rights issue Seems like the left avoids mentioning Arab issues with Palestinians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 They have a right to defend themselves, Lol america's had many blockades, does that make us pirates no. Your not using logic to come to your conclusions. America has not tried to starve 1.5 million people under its decades long occupation unlike Israel is doing in Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Seems like how Palestinins are treated was brought upSeems like being "Savages and Murderers" is a Human Rights issue Seems like the left avoids mentioning Arab issues with Palestinians There is no right or left here. The reason the Palestinians fled to the other Arab states is because they were murdered, terrorised and expelled by Israel. Do you support the naturalization of Mexican immigrants who crossed the border illegally into the United States? If not, then you are a hypocrite for having that expectation of the Arab states with Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyholetsgogrant Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 From this new video footage it does look like palestinians attacked israel commandoes first as they dropped onto the ship. If israel came in attacking there would have been alot more dead people. Im not really condoning the attack on the ship, but its a tough situation over there. So i dont know its a tough call.http://www.zerohedge.com/article/israeli-defense-forces-release-video-violence-aboard-turkish-ship Sending commandos on a ship in international waters and killing 10, I would definitely called that "attacking." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 America has not tried to starve 1.5 million people under its decades long occupation unlike Israel is doing in Gaza.Maybe its about the Palestinian DIET?Israel intercepts potassium nitrate smuggled in EU humanitarian aid package In a joint IDF and ISA operation several weeks ago, a truck was caught at one of the crossing points in Judea and Samaria carrying approximately 6.5 tons of potassium nitrate. The potassium nitrate was disguised in sugar bags, and was intended for use by terrorists in the Gaza Strip. It was Communicated by the IDF Spokesman. Potassium nitrate is a banned substance in the Gaza Strip and the Judea and Samaria region due to its use by terrorists for the manufacturing of explosives and Kassam rockets. The terror organizations disguised the potassium nitrate in sugar bags that were marked as being part of the humanitarian aid provided by the European Union. This is another example of how the terror organizations exploit the humanitarian aid that is delivered to the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip with Israel’s approval. http://frontierindia.net/israel-intercepts-potassium-nitrate-smuggled-in-eu-humanitarian-aid-package Eat less Sugar I say Too many BOMBS for breakfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs4Life Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Both sides have done horrible stuff. Personally i think he whole middle east is crazy. In my opinion its hard to blame either side, but you obviously already have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 ......Do you support the naturalization of Mexican immigrants who crossed the border illegally into the United States? If not, then you are a hypocrite for having that expectation of the Arab states with Palestinians.Nope I support both sides of the story being told and since you brought up Mexico, the hypocracy is in the Mexican President TREATING HIS "VISITORS" WORSE, and telling us we are wrong....kinda like the Arab states Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Nope I support both sides of the story being told and since you brought up Mexico, the hypocracy is in the Mexican President TREATING HIS "VISITORS" WORSE, and telling us we are wrong....kinda like the Arab states In this context we are the Arab state with the large refugees/illegal immigrant population, yet your expectation of the Arab states is far different than when it hits closer to home. What a shock. Hypocrisy at its finest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 In this context we are the Arab state with the large refugees/illegal immigrant population, yet your expectation of the Arab states is far different than when it hits closer to home. What a shock. Hypocrisy at its finest.TrueI shouldn't expect much from Arab States Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 TrueI don't expect much from Arab States You obviously don't expect much from yourself either with the inconsistencies in your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHOPSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 You obviously don't expect much......From 6.5 TONS of Potassium Nitrate?......at least a few Jewish Civilian deaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSkins Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 From 6.5 TONS of Potassium Nitrate?......at least a few Jewish Civilian deaths I expect far more civilian deaths from Israel's cluster bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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