NFP: Williams over Okung a 'big mistake'

[Morneblade]

I'll bite... Just because I want to talk football...

Why would you have rather taken Okung?

Because we know he's going to do everything he can to be the best he can be. Williams has a history of not working hard. That will not cut it at the NFL level. See: Jamarcus Russel. And that is the worry of some of us. Give me a guy that works his ass off anyday over a guy that doesnt. Especially the guy that works his butt off is damn good in the first place.

[FrFan]

He is definitely faster than Okung and it is a good advantage vs speedy DEs. Most experts said he has more potential than Okung, the only question is does he has the will to work hard ?. I'm confident, because I think the coaches and Samuels will make sure he will work his ass off to get to the top.

[Probos]

Or he may wind up being the best LT prospect in this draft. We don't know. All that we do know is that we took the guy that fits our scheme the best from an athletic/build/style of play stand point.

I agree, and that's why I ended my thread saying "...only time will tell" whether he's worth the pick or not.

:saber:

[KDawg]

I agree, and that's why I ended my thread saying "...only time will tell" whether he's worth the pick or not.

:saber:

I was more piggybacking you than calling you out by quoting you...

Put the sabres away.

[TheLongshot]

I've already said that I would probably have taken Okung, but I disagree with you about Jones and Samuels. I love Chris Samuels, but he was consistently very good, and never truly dominating. Much as it pains us here, Samuels was a notch below Pace, Ogden, Jones and Boselli.

I think the best trait of a LT is a guy who basically take for granted will be there. That was Samuels. We didn't even have to worry about that side of the line for the past 10 years.

Also, any player could turn into a Robert Gallery, who was viewed to be a near can't miss prospect. Even if Williams isn't good at LT, he looks like at aminimum he could be a pro-bowl RT.

Which is why even going with the "safe" pick isn't always safe. Gallery was considered the closest thing to a sure thing there was in the draft, and he was a bust at LT.

[KDawg]

I should have said best available measure other than game tape. I think you and I are making the same point. The guys with the highest bench numbers often don't have the best punch or functional strength. Williams may not have the bench numbers on the field, but he is the strongest/most violent blocker to come out this year.

With regards to the eccentric vs concentric phase of the bench, the eccentric phase is probably used most in pass pro when trying to absorb a bull rush. That is also the phase that was being measured in all of these recent threads about the ESPN sports science clips with Bruce Campbell and Selvish Capers trying to stop a 300 pound bag as it swings to them. Eccentric contraction also generally imparts a higher force to the involved tendons, and often is the cause of bicep/tricep/pec ruptures etc.

I'd argue that if you're close enough to have to use the eccentric aspect then you've already failed. You can't let a DL get in to you. Allowing yourself to get alligator armed destroys almost any leverage advantage you have and opens up opportunities for the DL to use a move to blow by you. In pass pro, it's true that you sit back a bit more, but once that body moves towards you you need to be able to punch to slow it's momentum or better yet, knock it off course. This lessens the importance of being able to stop a 300 lb heavy bag that's traveling in a straight path towards a target.

I'd argue that your base is just as vital to stopping that momentum as your upper body is anyways. Actually, I'd argue that it's more important.

Again, as you said, we seem to, for the most part, be championing the same point. But it's nice to talk intelligently with someone, so I'm nitpicking the convo a bit

[The Tris]

I've already said that I would probably have taken Okung, but I disagree with you about Jones and Samuels. I love Chris Samuels, but he was consistently very good, and never truly dominating. Much as it pains us here, Samuels was a notch below Pace, Ogden, Jones and Boselli.

This is the great fallicy among Redskins fans, that Samuels is a HOFer. To be fair, he played a bit in a golden era of LT. As a result, he was never the best LT in the league, though I'm certainly not complaining. He was a no brainer pick, and was clearly the best LT in the 2000 draft, with the next highest picked LT being the immortal Stockar McDougal. No one regrets Chris Samuels.

EDIT: and as LS astutely said, we didn't have to worry about that position for nearly a decade

Pace, Ogden and Jones were clearly the cream of OTs during Samuels career, and unfortunately I feel he was never quite on their level. He was probably more comparable to Boselli, Willie Roaf, and Willie Anderson. Durable, consistently good, fantastic leader...yes. Best LT in the game...no.

What excites me about Williams is that he has the ability to be the best LT in the game. Sure, we could have gone the safe route with Okung, but remember we did that the last time we pick this high in the draft, and that has gotten us a FS that should be playing SS.

Also, any player could turn into a Robert Gallery, who was viewed to be a near can't miss prospect. Even if Williams isn't good at LT, he looks like at aminimum he could be a pro-bowl RT.

I don't like looking at our picks from a down side persepective, but I have to agree, at worst, we have Jordan Gross. Unless you think his downside is so much that he could be BMW...which is quite a stretch at this point in time.

[scruffylookin]

I think I'm going to defer to Shanahan on this one over the opinions of some website dude, no matter how much tape he claims to have watched.

[herb mul-key]

Same here. I was a little confused when I heard we took Willams over Okung but Shanny knows more than I do so I hope he made the right decision.

Exactly my thought

[hitmandm]

ShannyAllen are overrated. Plain and simnple.

[gibbsfan2018]

This is all speculation. Remember the tackle the Raiders drafted. I believe his name was Robert Galloway. He was the surest thing in the draft. He turned out to be a bust. There is no guarantee that Okung will have a great NFL career.

[pvkeeper19]

That Chris Samuels turned out to be good doesn't mean Okung will do the same. I think that's a pretty weak argument as well.

If you are going to compare Samuels and Okungs as prospects, why can't I compare Clady and Williams as prospects?

I'm not saying the Williams/Clady comparison is unfair. My point was that there's a long list of players who were deemed "lazy" coming out of school who turned out to be lazy pros, and a much shorter list of "lazy" players who changed their work habits and became successful pros. Sure, Clady is on the shorter list, and Williams could end up there, but history suggests it's not likely. Okung, on the other hand, fits the mold of a player who should succeed, not one who might. Yes, there's a chance he could be a huge bust too, but the consensus is that Williams is far more likely to fit that description. That's why I preferred Okung at #4. That's also why we see great athletes who have "character issues" fall further in the draft than they would based on athletic ability. So, yeah, taking Williams here was a big time risk. We can't call it a mistake yet. Hopefully we won't have to. But I'm bracing for the worst.

[gibbsfan2018]

This is all speculation. Remember the tackle the Raiders drafted. I believe his name was Robert Galloway. He was the surest thing in the draft. He turned out to be a bust. There is no guarantee that Okung will have a great NFL career.

I found this on him

2. Oakland Raiders- OT Robert Gallery- Iowa

The Raiders got themselves perhaps the best player overall in the draft. Gallery will walk into the Raider Nation and make an immediate impact on the offensive line. While the coaching carousel may continue for years to come, two things will be certain in Oakland, the first is that Al Davis will continue to wear some of the nastiest threads and Robert Gallery will be spending at least a week in Honolulu during the off-season

[VRIEL1]

I didn't read all the pages, but just the first few posts alone make me laugh.

You guys would have rather picked up the #1 OT and have him suck and not work very well in our zone blocking vs. picking up the #2 OT on the board and getting excellent production out of him cause he knows the zone blocking and can do it? That makes no sense to me.

Thats just like the "we want Campbell at RT" fans. The guys played LT probably all through HS, then went on to college and played LT for his 4 yrs, and all of a sudden he's going to move to RT in the NFL. Yeah right. I'm not saying it can't be done but it would be kinda hard on him.

[pvkeeper19]

It's easy to find anecdotal evidence of "sure thing" players who wash out. But the numbers bear out the notion that those guys will make successful players more often than those with poor work ethic.

[pvkeeper19]

You guys would have rather picked up the #1 OT and have him suck and not work very well in our zone blocking vs. picking up the #2 OT on the board and getting excellent production out of him cause he knows the zone blocking and can do it? That makes no sense to me.

Not quite. We wanted Okung, the #1 rated player at his position, because we think he has a better chance to be a good NFL player. We didn't want the #2 rated prospect because: a) he's not, right now, the best player at his position, the best player at the position was still available, and c) there are legitimate, widely-held concerns about his work ethic that could easily prevent him from becoming a good player. The fact that he's supposedly familiar with the zone blocking scheme doesn't erase the other factors.

[aREDSKIN]

Not quite. We wanted Okung, the #1 rated player at his position, because we think he has a better chance to be a good NFL player. We didn't want the #2 rated prospect because: a) he's not, right now, the best player at his position, the best player at the position was still available, and c) there are legitimate, widely-held concerns about his work ethic that could easily prevent him from becoming a good player. The fact that he's supposedly familiar with the zone blocking scheme doesn't erase the other factors.

In your mind perhaps but many, including me, will defer to the demonstrated professionals and not message board prognosticators.

[tex]

I thought Okung was a no brainer, but that's me in front of a plasma. I just have to hope they were right.

thought Okung was the superior choice as well but what's done is done.

"hope" is not a plan so they better have this right or else we will be treated to the "tackling dummy show" starring "Donovan McNabb" on any given Sunday.

[dahibachi]

I think Trent Williams will be fine. Besides its way too early to tell. We won't know if this was a great pick or a stupid pick until 2-3 seasons in. Same goes for Russel Okung and all the other players in the 2010 draft. A guy made a point earlier that Robert Gallery was supposed to be a "sure" thing. How bout guys like WR Charles Rogers or RB Ron Dayne? Those guys were SUPPOSED to be be freaks at the next level. But at the same time, who expected 6th rounder Tom Brady to be a future HoF? 7th rounder Marques Colston to be a stud receiver? Anquan Boldin and Drew Brees each slipped to the 2nd round because people weren't sure they could play at the next level.

Point being, we won't know. Maybe our 7th rounder Selvish Capers becomes a pro-bowl LT. Who Knows?

[boobiemiles]

I hope when Mike goes, our team is better off. right now, we have a 3 year quarter back, and players that fit "his" system. I felt Okung was a better choice. Screw zone blocking! You pick the better player. Is it a far stretch to say Okung could adjusted to zone blocking schemes? The only reason I am not upset with Trent Williams, is he has more upside. If he can reach his potential, he will be an All-pro for years to come.

[pvkeeper19]

In your mind perhaps but many, including me, will defer to the demonstrated professionals and not message board prognosticators.

The overwhelming majority of professional prognosticators have also said Okung was the way to go.

[aREDSKIN]

The overwhelming majority of professional prognosticators have also said Okung was the way to go.

If these so called "professional prognosticators" were actually good and accurate with what they espouse they would be doing it PROFESSIONALLY for a team. You know where it really matters.

[Mooka]

Also, any player could turn into a Robert Gallery, who was viewed to be a near can't miss prospect. Even if Williams isn't good at LT, he looks like at aminimum he could be a pro-bowl RT.

Yea, need to clarify bust here.

Bust at #4 doesn't mean Trent won't develop into a quality RT or even G one day.

Robert Gallery and Leonard Davis were both considered busts because when you draft a Tackle that high you envision a stable franchise LT. But both have become very good Guards.

[theboomking]

I'd argue that if you're close enough to have to use the eccentric aspect then you've already failed. You can't let a DL get in to you. Allowing yourself to get alligator armed destroys almost any leverage advantage you have and opens up opportunities for the DL to use a move to blow by you. In pass pro, it's true that you sit back a bit more, but once that body moves towards you you need to be able to punch to slow it's momentum or better yet, knock it off course. This lessens the importance of being able to stop a 300 lb heavy bag that's traveling in a straight path towards a target.

I'd argue that your base is just as vital to stopping that momentum as your upper body is anyways. Actually, I'd argue that it's more important.

Again, as you said, we seem to, for the most part, be championing the same point. But it's nice to talk intelligently with someone, so I'm nitpicking the convo a bit

Hmmm. Technically, eccentric contraction occurs when the muscle is contracting while it is lengthening. I'd argue that that happens on almost every pass play. Usually the defensive lineman doesn't start moving away from you as soon as you make hand contact. Don't the hands of an OL usually recoil a bit on first contact, especially on a bull rush?

Eccentric Contractions—Muscle Actively Lengthening

During normal activity, muscles are often active while they are lengthening. Classic examples of this are walking, when the quadriceps (knee extensors) are active just after heel strike while the knee flexes, or setting an object down gently (the arm flexors must be active to control the fall of the object).

As the load on the muscle increases, it finally reaches a point where the external force on the muscle is greater than the force that the muscle can generate. Thus even though the muscle may be fully activated, it is forced to lengthen due to the high external load. This is referred to as an eccentric contraction (please remember that contraction in this context does not necessarily imply shortening). There are two main features to note regarding eccentric contractions. First, the absolute tensions achieved are very high relative to the muscle's maximum tetanic tension generating capacity (you can set down a much heavier object than you can lift). Second, the absolute tension is relatively independent of lengthening velocity. This suggests that skeletal muscles are very resistant to lengthening. The basic mechanics of eccentric contractions are still a source of debate since the cross-bridge theory that so nicely describes concentric contractions is not as successful in describing eccentric contractions.

Eccentric contractions are currently a very popular area of study for three main reasons: First, much of a muscle's normal activity occurs while it is actively lengthening, so that eccentric contractions are physiologically common (Goslow et al. 1973; Hoffer et al. 1989) Second, muscle injury and soreness are selectively associated with eccentric contraction (Figure 2, Fridén et al. 1984; Evans et al. 1985; Fridén and Lieber, 1992). Finally, muscle strengthening may be greatest using exercises that involve eccentric contractions. Therefore, there are some very fundamental structure-function questions that can be addressed using the eccentric contraction model and eccentric contractions have very important applications therapeutically to strengthen muscle.

http://muscle.ucsd.edu/musIntro/contractions.shtml

I'm 100% in agreement that your base is more important in stopping a bull rush than hand strength. I'd also say however that how much you can squat probably isn't a good measure for that, since a lot of it comes form flexibility and core strength as well as lower extremity strength.

[Oldfan]

On one hand, Schmidt made clear that Williams has incredible potential. On the other, well, we'll let Schmidt's words speak for themselves.

"He's one of those guys, he's definitely not a gym rat. If he was, there wouldn't be anybody even close to him," Schmidt said. "If he really committed himself, it wouldn't even be close. He'd be the best ever. That's how much talent he's got. There's a lot of talent there that he just hasn't tapped."

I don't like hearing his college coach say that our #4 pick in the draft has untapped potential.