NFP: Williams over Okung a 'big mistake'

[JimmyZ123]

Bruce Allen DID say that his approach to the draft was NOT Best Player Available but Best Player for what the Redskins want to do....said that in an interview a while ago.

and thats how it SHOULD be.

[Quixote]

If the season started tomorrow, it wouldn't start soon enough. :point2sky

I couldn't agree more. So, is this Dallas Summer?! Usually its only "Dallas Week." I just want them to bring it on.

Dear Football Gods, please make Tony Romo sits to pee cry in Fed Ex! And, this not being more important than the former, let the rookies that start serve the position adequately. aaaaammmmmeeeeeeen! :notworthy :notworthy

[skinsfan4128]

I couldn't agree more. So, is this Dallas Summer?! Usually its only "Dallas Week." I just want them to bring it on.

Dear Football Gods, please make Tony Romo sits to pee cry in Fed Ex! And, this not being more important than the former, let the rookies that start serve the position adequately. aaaaammmmmeeeeeeen! :notworthy :notworthy

:hysterical: The football gods answered your request in the form of Orakpo! :dallasuck

[SKINSFAN87]

no matter who the redskins pick, this team will never get any positive criticism from any analyst. we could have drafted okung instead and i guarantee that we would have been nailed for that choice as being a terrible fit. it makes it all the better when we win to give a nice big **** burger to all the media and analysts.

[KDawg]

The squat is probably a more predictive lift for the running game, where players try to explode from the hips and drive the other guy off the ball.

The bench does seem like the best measure for pass protection, were you are using your legs to try not to get outflanked, and using your arms to try to punch the guy back and impede his progress.

Not necessarily. A good punch doesn't correlate with a bench press. Take some of your hardest hitting fighters. They don't necessarily bench a ton of weight. They use proper leverages and mechanics and combine that with their ability to fire all of the muscles necessary to throw a big punch. Being an offensive lineman in pass pro isn't much different.

The punch is vital to an OL in pass pro, however, getting in the defenders path of travel and making them go in the opposite direction is just as vital. Alot of these DEs aren't strong enough to go through a 300 pound man. So they try to go around them. Keep your feet and use a decent punch and you have an advantage.

That said, there are absolutely exceptions to that rule.

Also keep in mind that the bench press contains an eccentric and concentric phase, a punch is almost purely concentric, at least as far as loading is concerned. Bench numbers can be inflated or lessened based on your ability to control the eccentric phase. That not really a problem with the punch as the eccentric phase is generally filled with air after a punch.

That being said, I don't think the bench press numbers mean much in this case, other than that Okung has clearly been the more diligent worker in the weight room. Trent Williams probably has the best punch in this year's class and is also the best run blocker. I don't think Williams has any functional strength deficit on the field.

And with this part of your post, we come full circle and agree.

[pvkeeper19]

no matter who the redskins pick, this team will never get any positive criticism from any analyst. we could have drafted okung instead and i guarantee that we would have been nailed for that choice as being a terrible fit. it makes it all the better when we win to give a nice big **** burger to all the media and analysts.

To be fair, the Redskins have done little to build credibility in the past decade. They have earned the negative press they get with questionable front office moves and poor play. Until those things get turned around, they can expect to be second guessed by both the media and their fans. Just because the personnel people changed doesn't mean things are automatically better. That'll take time to determine. So far, Shanahan and Allen haven't done anything in DC to prove their worth.

[KDawg]

Inherent in your argument is this: Russell Okung is a better tackle than the guy we drafted. That's why the Okung people aren't convinced this was the right move.

Where is that inherent in my argument? Okung is slightly better than Williams in pass pro, mostly due to his ability to redirect counter moves.

I happen to think that Williams is better in run blocking, and specifically, run blocking in the zone blocking scheme.

I could see you saying it's inherent with some people's arguments on the matter, but it's certainly not with mine.

[TheRookie]

First of all, just want to say hey...this is my first post. Been hanging around for a while, but finally decided to take the plunge and register.

Anyway, there seems to be those who covet a "value with Okung now" approach and those who are on the side of "more value with Williams later." I can't say I disagree with either of these arguments as they both have merit. However, if forced to make a choice, I'm going to put my support behind the "more value with Williams later" philosophy.

Here's why:

1. I think we've been down the "win now" road enough (vis-a-vis high profile signings/draft picks) and have seen that it's not the best strategy. It's left us in a perpetual cycle of salary cap issues and rebuilding.

2. I believe the draft is not (or shouldn't be) as much a validation of what you did in college or where you're at today as much as it should be an invenstment of where you'll be tomorrow. Sure, you have to prove yourself in college enough to show to you've got tools, but as much as we talk about how the pro game is on another level compared to the college one, we should also acknowlege that the tools required to look like a pro in college may not be the same ones that make you a star at the professional level.

So, if the FO sees more of that "pro" potential in Williams for the scheme they want to run, I'm going to defer to their more informed opinion, root, and hope for the best. Could it turn out that Okung truly had more of the potential I'm talking about and turns out to be a much better player? Sure. But, we can't draft everybody and I'm not going to write off the FO if they're wrong. They want this work as bad as any of us and I trust they did they're homework. If a series of failures happens, then yeah...we can start to criticize. But, for now, I think it's premature to say anyone's legacy should ride on this pick. It's not like we took a guy thought to have 5th round talent and took him at 4th overall. We took a top flight talent we thought had more potential within our system. If we really want to building lasting success (a dynasty) then we need to make as many of these choices as possible and as few "stop-gap/win today" signings as we can.

Sorry that got so long...nothing like a filibuster for the first post.

- Go Skins

[skinsfan4128]

First of all, just want to say hey...this is my first post. Been hanging around for a while, but finally decided to take the plunge and register.

Anyway, there seems to be those who covet a "value with Okung now" approach and those who are on the side of "more value with Williams later." I can't say I disagree with either of these arguments as they both have merit. However, if forced to make a choice, I'm going to put my support behind the "more value with Williams later" philosophy.

Here's why:

1. I think we've been down the "win now" road enough (vis-a-vis high profile signings/draft picks) and have seen that it's not the best strategy. It's left us in a perpetual cycle of salary cap issues and rebuilding.

2. I believe the draft is not (or shouldn't be) as much a validation of what you did in college or where you're at today as much as it should be an invenstment of where you'll be tomorrow. Sure, you have to prove yourself in college enough to show to you've got tools, but as much as we talk about how the pro game is on another level compared to the college one, we should also acknowlege that the tools required to look like a pro in college may not be the same ones that make you a star at the professional level.

So, if the FO sees more of that "pro" potential in Williams for the scheme they want to run, I'm going to defer to their more informed opinion, root, and hope for the best. Could it turn out that Okung truly had more of the potential I'm talking about and turns out to be a much better player? Sure. But, we can't draft everybody and I'm not going to write off the FO if they're wrong. They want this work as bad as any of us and I trust they did they're homework. If a series of failures happens, then yeah...we can start to criticize. But, for now, I think it's premature to say anyone's legacy should ride on this pick. It's not like we took a guy thought to have 5th round talent and took him at 4th overall. We took a top flight talent we thought had more potential within our system. If we really want to building lasting success (a dynasty) then we need to make as many of these choices as possible and as few "stop-gap/win today" signings as we can.

Sorry that got so long...nothing like a filibuster for the first post.

- Go Skins

Good first post. Better than my first. Welcome to ES.

[The Tris]

Just a bit of draft recap perspective:

3. Tennessee. I should call this the Matt Millen Memorial Wide Receiver Stat of the Week, in honor of the Detroit executive who picked wide receivers in the top 10 of the draft in three consecutive years: The Tennessee Titans have taken a running back in the top 50 picks of the draft three years in a row -- Chris Johnson in 2008 (24th overall), Chris Henry in 2007 (50th), and LenDale White in 2006 (45th). I'm not really interested in hearing an explanation on that. It's just wrong.

Tennessee Titans: GRADE: C

Running back Chris Johnson is a good player, but I wasn't expecting him to go to Tennessee, especially because the Titans need a wide receiver. (They should have looked at WR Devin Thomas in the first round.)

GRADE: D+

• Tennessee Titans: If they plan on running the wishbone, boost the grade. RB Chris Johnson ran the fastest times in the 40-yard dash at the combine and then ran right into the first round with a team that keeps drafting at this position (LenDale White, Chris Henry) and pays too little attention to its WRs and the holes along the d-line. No team had fewer TD catches last year than the Titans' nine and the Titans did not do enough here to help QB Vince Young.

Of the teams that actually had picks, the Tennessee Titans may have done the "worst," although nobody seems to have totally blown it. The Titans are taking heat for going for Eastern Carolina’s Chris Johnson in round one. Johnson is a running back that blazed a nasty 4.24, 40-yard dash at the combine, but otherwise would never have been considered a top running back prospect.

The worst pick of the draft so far is without a doubt Tennessee drafting RB Chris Johnson with the 24th pick. Johnson is all speed and probably would have been around well into the second-round. On top of that, Vince Young still doesn't have any great targets, yet he now has another running back instead. That just doesn't make any sense.

Moral of the story? Titans took a boom or bust player that fit their system, immediately got killed for doing so. Now who looks stupid.

We all need to take a breather here.

[pvkeeper19]

Where is that inherent in my argument? Okung is slightly better than Williams in pass pro, mostly due to his ability to redirect counter moves.

I happen to think that Williams is better in run blocking, and specifically, run blocking in the zone blocking scheme.

I could see you saying it's inherent with some people's arguments on the matter, but it's certainly not with mine.

Here's why:

Okung is not that much better than Williams in pass pro, although he is slightly better. Okung does a better job on the counter moves, but overall Williams isn't too far behind. His pass protection will need to progress at the NFL level, but it's not as bad as some of these people try to make it out to be.

"Slightly" better is still better. You listed multiple things in your post that Okung is better at than Williams. So we agree, Okung is better right now. Where we apparently disagree is that I think the better player would be the better pick, and you seem to disagree.

The left tackle's primary function is to be a good pass blocker--Okung's strength, and Williams's biggest weakness. Williams's scouting report sounds like he's a right tackle or interior lineman, and I (and most draft "gurus") think 4th overall is a little high to pick that kind of player. Add to that all the negatives about Williams (which have been brought up repeatedly, so I won't list them again), and it seems to me that Okung would have been the obviously preferable pick.

In short, because I want to see the Redskins win, I hope you're right that Williams was better. But as we stand today, I think you're wrong.

[Mr. Sinister]

Not that this has a lot to do with this argument but I'll just say this. Jerry Rice was the third receiver taken in the '85 Draft, after Eddie Williams and Al Toone. The consencus was that Bill Walsh drafted Rice because he saw supreme talent and ability, although Rice was a little raw. Walsh believed that although there were more "finished product" receivers available, Rice had the most potential out of all the receivers in the draft, and with solid coaching, he could be one of the greatest of all time.

Now we all have the right to second guess, but if theres anybody that knows o-line, it's Mike Shanahan, and with all these teachers of the game on our team now ( Kyle, Forester, etc.) I believe that Williams, and his VERSITILITY will ultimately win out, and I think thats what Shanny saw on tape. Sure Okung was the more "finished product," but when your drafteing in the top 5 you want a guy with the highest ceiling, and a guy who's versitile, which will maximize his value on the team. And let's face it, EVERYONE in the draft needs coaching to become great players anyway, but what do I know?

[ATLredskin]

I don't think people understand that we are planning on running the football...like smashmouth football. We are going to be a run heavy team. We got 3 capable RBs here for a reason so when one tires out or get injured then we just move right on to the next capable guy. Then we got Trent Williams, a run blocker over the pass blocker in Okung. If we were planning on passing the ball all the time then Okung would be the choice. At the end of the day both Okung and Williams are not your typical elite tackle guys at the top of the draft board. They both are going to need some coaching and they both have the potential to be great with Williams having the tougher task of lining up against NFC East defenses compared to lining up against NFC West defenses.

[ST is my boy]

Just a bit of draft recap perspective:

Moral of the story? Titans took a boom or bust player that fit their system, immediately got killed for doing so. Now who looks stupid.

We all need to take a breather here.

LOLLLLLLLL nicely done

[KDawg]

Here's why:

"Slightly" better is still better. You listed multiple things in your post that Okung is better at than Williams. So we agree, Okung is better right now. Where we apparently disagree is that I think the better player would be the better pick, and you seem to disagree.

In terms of pass pro. Yes. Slightly. So no, we don't agree that Okung is the better player. We agree that he's slightly better in pass pro. I think Williams is the better player, specifically for this scheme.

The left tackle's primary function is to be a good pass blocker--Okung's strength, and Williams's biggest weakness.

This is where the never ending argument on ceiling and upside comes into play. To make it short, I think Williams has more upside as far as pass pro goes than Okung. I also think Williams fits the zone scheme more. Hopefully you're beginning to see that I think Okung is a tremendous football player, but not the fit for what we're doing specifically in the run game and I don't think his pass pro upside is as high as Williams.

[pvkeeper19]

First of all, just want to say hey...this is my first post. Been hanging around for a while, but finally decided to take the plunge and register.

Anyway, there seems to be those who covet a "value with Okung now" approach and those who are on the side of "more value with Williams later." I can't say I disagree with either of these arguments as they both have merit. However, if forced to make a choice, I'm going to put my support behind the "more value with Williams later" philosophy.

You sound like a risk taker, so I don't need to explain the risk-reward concept to you. But you run in to some problems with that when the risk you're taking is based on people instead of probability.

Sure, Williams may be able to aggregate his fecal matter and become an elite NFL tackle. He's apparently got the athletic potential to do so. But he's also got a history of work habits that tend to cause even athletically gifted players to wash out at the NFL level. Okung, on the other hand, is almost universally expected to be a very good NFL tackle because of his combination of brains, skills, and work ethic.

In my estimation, it's easier to teach a hard worker to work effectively in your scheme than it is to take a guy who fits your scheme and teach him to work hard.

Now consider where we picked: 4th overall. The player taken there is likely to make upwards of $30M guaranteed in his rookie contract. If it was my $30M, I'd want to invest it in the surest commodity, because I'm pretty certain that I'm going to get a reliable return on that investment. Sure, the riskier pick carries the possibility of a slightly higher return, but he also carries the significant possibility of a low return.

On top of that, I don't get why everybody thinks Okung's already as good as he's going to get, but Williams has heaps of potential. What's to stop Okung from improving as an athlete as well? He's obviously the kind of guy who's willing to work at improving himself.

[VetMinimum+Incentives]

Here's the way I look at it. You select Okung and you pretty much know what you're getting-- someone with a strong work ethic that's gonna be a starter from day one and not embarrass you on or off the field. He may never be a perennial all pro but he'll solidify the second most critical offensive position for the next decade. Safe choice.

On the other hand if you select Williams you're taking a gamble on greatness-- I mean potential hall of fame type greatness. He's got world class feet-- the best feet of anyone available in the draft. I'm not just talking about straightline speed but true maneuverability backed with force at the point of impact. He is truely a dancing bear-- uh make that silverback.

He's also much more versatile than Okung having played every postion on the line and even doing a stellar job making the calls and adjustments while playing center in a bowl game.

He may lack the strength of Okung but he's got a big frame with plenty of room to grow. He's also tough and downright nasty in the run game. On his best days he can get out and make blocks in space that Okung couldn't dream of doing.

Trent, to be fair, is also very inconsistent and is no ones idea of a workout warrior. As for his maturity and focus, well consider that his own teammates voted him the most likely to go on a crazy spending spree after he "gets paid".

So far, as attested to by his s&c coach, he has not shown himself to be a self motivated player. He seems to get by on his talent and he doesn't really push himself to improve like Okung does. That is perhaps the most damning criticism of all.

This really puts the onus on our o-line coach, Chris Foerster, to light a fire under his butt (damn I wish Buges could spend a year with this kid-- just to get his mind right). <sigh>

That said, based on my many years scouting college players if I had to grade them on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is Shar Pourdanesh and 10 is Anthony Munoz I'd rate Okung about an 8-- he is what he is and there's not a whole lot of room for improvement.

As he stands now, I'd rate Trent a 7...

BUT IF we manage to motivate him and fill him with the desire to do everything he can to be the best player that he can be then he has the POTENTIAL to become a 9.5 super elite franchise left tackle (something beyond Okung's ceiling).

While I understand and can respect those who would play it safe and take the sure thing, If I had to make the pick I'd bite the bullet and take a gamble on greatness with the silverback-- then do everything in my power to motivate this kid.

Either way, the success or failure of both our season and perhaps the entire Shanahan 2.0 reboot will to a large extent depend on whether or not we can get Trent Williams to reach his potential.

[theboomking]

Not necessarily. A good punch doesn't correlate with a bench press. Take some of your hardest hitting fighters. They don't necessarily bench a ton of weight. They use proper leverages and mechanics and combine that with their ability to fire all of the muscles necessary to throw a big punch. Being an offensive lineman in pass pro isn't much different.

The punch is vital to an OL in pass pro, however, getting in the defenders path of travel and making them go in the opposite direction is just as vital. Alot of these DEs aren't strong enough to go through a 300 pound man. So they try to go around them. Keep your feet and use a decent punch and you have an advantage.

That said, there are absolutely exceptions to that rule.

Also keep in mind that the bench press contains an eccentric and concentric phase, a punch is almost purely concentric, at least as far as loading is concerned. Bench numbers can be inflated or lessened based on your ability to control the eccentric phase. That not really a problem with the punch as the eccentric phase is generally filled with air after a punch.

And with this part of your post, we come full circle and agree.

I should have said best available measure other than game tape. I think you and I are making the same point. The guys with the highest bench numbers often don't have the best punch or functional strength. Williams may not have the bench numbers on the field, but he is the strongest/most violent blocker to come out this year.

With regards to the eccentric vs concentric phase of the bench, the eccentric phase is probably used most in pass pro when trying to absorb a bull rush. That is also the phase that was being measured in all of these recent threads about the ESPN sports science clips with Bruce Campbell and Selvish Capers trying to stop a 300 pound bag as it swings to them. Eccentric contraction also generally imparts a higher force to the involved tendons, and often is the cause of bicep/tricep/pec ruptures etc.

[pvkeeper19]

Here's the way I look at it. You select Okung and you pretty much know what you're getting-- someone with a strong work ethic that's gonna be a starter from day one and not embarrass you on or off the field. He may never be a perennial all pro but he'll solidify the second most critical offensive position for the next decade. Safe choice.

How can you know that Okung doesn't have just as much room to improve as Williams does? Okung is a lean athlete (for an OL) who can add more bulk, enabling him to become a top-tier run blocker as well. I really want to know why everyone seems to think Okung's peak is so much lower than Williams's. I've heard a lot of people say that and offer no justification. Opinions without justification are pretty worthless to me.

He's also much more versatile than Okung having played every postion on the line and even doing a stellar job making the calls and adjustments while playing center in a bowl game.

That may be true, but with the 4th overall pick in the draft and a big hole to fill at left tackle, I don't want a guy who can play a bunch of positions besides LT. I want a franchise LT. Williams might be that, or he might be a guard. This is a question of Chris Samuels vs. Robert Gallery to me.

Trent, to be fair, is also very inconsistent and is no ones idea of a workout warrior. As for his maturity and focus, well consider that his own teammates voted him the most likely to go on a crazy spending spree after he "gets paid".

So far, as attested to by his s&c coach, he has not shown himself to be a self motivated player. He seems to get by on his talent and he doesn't really push himself to improve like Okung does. That is perhaps the most damning criticism of all.

Exactly. Williams himself has admitted that he didn't work very hard because he was able to get by on athleticism alone. Putting that guy in the most important position on the line is a recipe for disaster. We saw what happened last season when Samuels went down--Campbell was running for his life. Now McNabb is the victim when the LT whiffs on a DE, and McNabb isn't going to take as many hits as Campbell did without getting hurt.

[theboomking]

In my estimation, it's easier to teach a hard worker to work effectively in your scheme than it is to take a guy who fits your scheme and teach him to work hard.

This statement generalizes well to most things in life, work, relationships, school...

Lots of 18-21 year old kids mature however. Williams has the potential to be an All-Pro, Walter Jones type player. Okung looks like more of a Chris Samuels type player. He'll be good every year, but will never be an All-pro.

[The Tris]

Okung, on the other hand, is almost universally expected to be a very good NFL tackle because of his combination of brains, skills, and work ethic.

In my estimation, it's easier to teach a hard worker to work effectively in your scheme than it is to take a guy who fits your scheme and teach him to work hard.

Even the hardest workers sometimes just don't have the natural ability to play LT.

That club will get a feisty, technically sound worker bee with tremendous strength.

Guess who that prospect was? Love the Bugel quotes in there too.

And again, as have been quoted ad nasuem in this thread, read the Ryan Clady reports:

NEGATIVES: At times inconsistent and gets lazy. Considered indecisive and not a take-charge person.

ANALYSIS: Clady is an exceptional football player with abundant upside potential. He will be a productive starting tackle in the NFL if his priorities are in order and he commits himself to the game.

Intelligent player with good vision, but he has had a few mental lapses on the field that have produced costly penalties … Must show better work habits in the weight room and needs to be monitored

Lazy, inconsistent, needs to be baby sat in the wieght room, lacks good work habits...

Look, we know the negatives of TW. No one doubts there is risk involved, but if anyone was to stick their neck out for a player, I'd want that to be Mike Shanahan.

The sad thing is, no coach, player, or executive in the Redskins organization will get the benefit of the doubt. We as fans have been burned too many time, and are hardened and cynical. We expect the worst, and second guess everything. That is the nature of the current fan. So it makes sense that the glass seems half empty. But can you at least acknowledge that the glass could be half full?

[pvkeeper19]

This statement generalizes well to most things in life, work, relationships, school...

Lots of 18-21 year old kids mature however. Williams has the potential to be an All-Pro, Walter Jones type player. Okung looks like more of a Chris Samuels type player. He'll be good every year, but will never be an All-pro.

He's also got the potential to be a Robert Gallery-type player. I'd rather take an almost certain Chris Samuels than a 50/50 HOF tackle/decent guard prospect. The difference between Jones and Samuels was not huge.

[pvkeeper19]

And again, as have been quoted ad nasuem in this thread, read the Ryan Clady reports:

Lazy, inconsistent, needs to be baby sat in the wieght room, lacks good work habits...

That Ryan Clady turned out to be good doesn't mean Williams will do the same. I think that's a pretty weak argument. There are a lot of other players whose scouting report said they were lazy who turned out to be lazy underachievers in the NFL, too.

[The Tris]

That Ryan Clady turned out to be good doesn't mean Williams will do the same. I think that's a pretty weak argument. There are a lot of other players whose scouting report said they were lazy who turned out to be lazy underachievers in the NFL, too.

That Chris Samuels turned out to be good doesn't mean Okung will do the same. I think that's a pretty weak argument as well.

If you are going to compare Samuels and Okungs as prospects, why can't I compare Clady and Williams as prospects?

[theboomking]

He's also got the potential to be a Robert Gallery-type player. I'd rather take an almost certain Chris Samuels than a 50/50 HOF tackle/decent guard prospect. The difference between Jones and Samuels was not huge.

I've already said that I would probably have taken Okung, but I disagree with you about Jones and Samuels. I love Chris Samuels, but he was consistently very good, and never truly dominating. Much as it pains us here, Samuels was a notch below Pace, Ogden, Jones and Boselli.

Also, any player could turn into a Robert Gallery, who was viewed to be a near can't miss prospect. Even if Williams isn't good at LT, he looks like at aminimum he could be a pro-bowl RT.