Peyton Manning and Big Moments Do Not Mix

[Heisenberg]

Teams win (and lose) Super Bowls and one play doesn't define a career.

With that said - the Colts are quite possibly a sub-.500 team without Manning playing QB for them.

He may not be the greatest of all-time (how subjective is that anyway?) - but he's certainly the most valuable player in the NFL year in and year out. Nothing against Brady but the Patriots went 11-5 with a guy that hadn't started a game since high school lining up at QB for them.

[TheREALJBird]

Manning is better than Brady. You talk about bandwagons...you're riding Tom's, as well as his jock as well.

[Ghost of]

Manning is better than Brady. You talk about bandwagons...you're riding Tom's, as well as his jock as well.

I'm not a bandwagon fan, since I went to school at the same time he played at Michigan, genius. I certainly didn't hop on because of this year, like some people with this "GOAT" label.

As for seabee, your post about anyone losing choking is ridiculous. Elway wasn't a choker because he lost three SBs, his teams were severely outclassed in each SB he played from a talent perspective. Sanchez played well for a rookie in the AFC title game on the road. The Jets simply didn't have the defensive counter to Manning and Co.'s adjustments. It's not like Sanchez threw the key pick that went from tying it to a pick six and a 14 point deficit.

Manning has, what? six one and outs in the playoffs, his SB year he wasn't great and went up against one of the worst SB teams in recent memory, loses when predicted otherwise to the Chargers and specifically makes big errors when it matters.

It's not the loss, it's the way one loses. This is not some exception with Manning, this is what he does. The pick six when you would think he would march down and tie it. The listless performances against inferior opponents...etc.

It's not that I wouldn't want Manning on my team, come on---we have JC of all people.

As for the other guy saying the Patriots went 11-5, true but the previous year they were undefeated and it was the Pats D that gave up the game-winning drive to Manning and the Giants after Brady had scored. Brady has had bad moments but he almost is marked by his delivery of the last minute drive, the game-winning score, the performance when it counted. Even in that 2007 SB he wasn't throwing a pick six to lose the game, he actually did his part before that miraculous pass to Tyree.

Just as Montana didn't win the SB every year he played and even got killed a couple of times, he is defined by what he was able to do, to neutralize those bad outings. Manning is defined by his shortcomings in the postseason--THAT IS HOW IT IS. Hell, Manning couldn't even

GET INTO THE END ZONE with the Saints hoping to just run time off the clock!! Did you watch the end of the game? He was helpless. he could do nothing and since he's responsible for some of the calls and how they get executed, he takes the hit. When it mattered, he couldn't even buy a score for the onside kick try--

Christ, that's pathetic. He was down in the goal line area with the Saints just trying to hold on and almost threw a SECOND PICK to end the game.

That's what Manning does, he had a chance to make it interesting again and STILL gave up the ghost without even scoring. Damn near threw another pick, couldn't find anyone open, couldn't score to bring his team within one score.

That's Manning in a nutshell.

[Capt Rich Fla]

NIBBS! Say it, you can't stand him! I can't stand him, but we can't dispell that HE IS one of the best to ever play the game. (I smell an OLD Baltimore fan in you, like a hyena smells fresh kill wofting in the wind)

[Destino]

Brady's "game winning drives" were field goals. All of them. I'm so sick of hearing how spectacular he was when he was never pressured because his line was so good it made no name running backs look great in the post season. This year with a line that couldn't get it done you saw his amazing abililty... to scream at his teammates when it's painfully obvious that he couldn't get it done.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest I want to chime in on Peyton Manning. He was never pressured today. I can't think of a play in which he even took a decent hit. He **** the bed with all day to throw the football. It wasn't just the fact that he threw a pick 6 that sealed the game. He couldn't score much in the first half and couldn't score at the end of the 4th after giving up a touchdown either. All of this with a jersey so clean you could use it in a Tide commercial. That's an epic QB fail.

[JKonaP]

Peyton is class. He has never had a dominant D. If any of you wishes he weren't on our squad, then you lie to yourself.

Congrats Brees, from a Texas fan of the B&G.

[Heisenberg]

Interesting that I just heard Steve Young say the pick 6 was on Reggie Wayne for not sealing off the corner on the route.

No clue if that's the case or whatever but I just want to again point out how absurd it is to act like the guy isn't one of the best to ever play the position.

[Meatheadskinsfan]

Peyton Manning is the best quarterback in the game today, and ever. Fact.

Sure he didn't have a great game tonight, but he also made quite a few throws that nobody else could have made. 1st play of the game beatiful throw to dallas clark where only he can catch it. Later on, On 3rd down in the redzone makes another great throw to clark in between 2 defenders. The big throw to Collie late in the game.

That pick six was not choking. The defender made a great play. Choking is Pierre Garcon dropping that pass on 3rd down in the first half, or Reggie Wayne shying away from contact on the last throw of the game.

Lets put it this way. Anti-Campbell people here always say "A great QB makes his recievers better and makes plays even without great protection." Nobody does that better than Manning. Going into this season the guy loses his favorite target, then loses the guy supposed to replace him. He wins 14 games with a rookie 4th round pick and a former D3 player playing receiver. For you Brady lovers, what happens when Welker goes down? His offensive line is ok, not great, and they had one of the worst, maybe the worst running game in the league. Everybody knows they're throwing, but they can't stop it. Sure manning only got sacked 10 times this year, but that's not just because of his oline, he gets the ball out as fast or faster than any qb in the NFL.

To say Manning isn't the greatest of all time because he only has 1 ring and it was against a "bad SB team" is a little ridiculous. He was MVP of that game and threw for almost 300 yards 1 TD 1 Pick (thrown when the receiver clearly ran the wrong route). Keep in mind that might not have been a great team, but they did have the #5 defense in the NFL. While they were 11th against the pass, they were 1st in yards per attempt (5.8), meaning that the 11th statistic is skewed bc people threw the ball against them a lot. So that wasn't just a cake walk.

Hats off to the saints, great job by their defense, but to say that Manning isn't one of the top 3 quarterbacks, in my opinion the best quarterback, to ever play the game is ridiculous.

[Ghost of]

Peyton Manning is the best quarterback in the game today, and ever. Fact.

Give me a break, you didn't grow up watching Joe Montana, Elway or Marino, you're damn near too young to have even seen Brady operate.

Look, it's not a fact.

Manning isn't even the best QB in the league RIGHT NOW. He just got beat by the best QB in the league. Brees has thrown for a thousand more yards since being with the Saints, is a fraction of a QB rating point away from Manning, has won a SB against a good (though historically overrated) team as opposed to the Bears, actually played well in the SB, won SB MVP (and deserved it) and he broke the completion percentage all-time record this year. he also came THIS close to setting the all-time yardage record.

Brees isn't some super physical talent either, he's known for being just as cerebral in his approach to the game and he's actually the more accurate passer from a placement standpoint. He's a great leader, probably even a better leader than Manning is, though not as high profile, because you'll never hear him badmouth his offensive line like Manning has in past playoff losses. I mean the dude leads their hype circle.

So, Manning has a longer tenure but Manning isn't the best ever, not even close.

You have an assertion because you came of age during Manning's reign and don't even remember that it was Brady's knee injury that even put Manning there recently.

Do you know why that was? Because Manning was regarded as the inferior postseason QB, because of HIS play, not just some team failure. And it came through again. Manning isn't the best ever, he's not even the best of his generation. And I certainly don't want you people to be putting him up there with Montana.

And even Steve Young at least had the excuse of losing to an excellent, excellent Cowboys team (and he did win a SB too.)

And JMU,

You can't argue that someone is GOAT or near-GOAT and how great they are in comparison to someone else and then argue that it's a team game. You have to look at the performances, context, etc. Specific plays even.

Yeah, it's a team game, that's why the Niners won four SBs. They easily could have won those four with Jay Schroeder. Some players are that important. Which is why the Vikes signed Favre. bah, he's not one of the best ever, he's just a guy...it's a team game. Please.

Hell, Dallas Clark even said that at the end of the day, it's on Peyton's shoulders whether they win or lose.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Peyton Manning is the best quarterback in the game today, and ever. Fact.

You may be even worse than Nibbs is in this debate. :doh:

[JKonaP]

Give me a break, you didn't grow up watching Joe Montana, Elway or Marino, you're damn near too young to have even seen Brady operate.

Look, it's not a fact.

Manning isn't even the best QB in the league RIGHT NOW. He just got beat by the best QB in the league. Brees has thrown for a thousand more yards since being with the Saints, is a fraction of a QB rating point away from Manning, has won a SB against a good (though historically overrated) team as opposed to the Bears, actually played well in the SB, won SB MVP (and deserved it) and he broke the completion percentage all-time record this year. he also came THIS close to setting the all-time yardage record.

Brees isn't some super physical talent either, he's known for being just as cerebral in his approach to the game and he's actually the more accurate passer from a placement standpoint. He's a great leader, probably even a better leader than Manning is, though not as high profile, because you'll never hear him badmouth his offensive line like Manning has in past playoff losses. I mean the dude leads their hype circle.

So, Manning has a longer tenure but Manning isn't the best ever, not even close.

You have an assertion because you came of age during Manning's reign and don't even remember that it was Brady's knee injury that even put Manning there recently.

Do you know why that was? Because Manning was regarded as the inferior postseason QB, because of HIS play, not just some team failure. And it came through again. Manning isn't the best ever, he's not even the best of his generation. And I certainly don't want you people to be putting him up there with Montana.

And even Steve Young at least had the excuse of losing to an excellent, excellent Cowboys team (and he did win a SB too.)

And JMU,

You can't argue that someone is GOAT or near-GOAT and how great they are in comparison to someone else and then argue that it's a team game. You have to look at the performances, context, etc. Specific plays even.

Yeah, it's a team game, that's why the Niners won four SBs. They easily could have won those four with Jay Schroeder. Some players are that important. Which is why the Vikes signed Favre. bah, he's not one of the best ever, he's just a guy...it's a team game. Please.

Hell, Dallas Clark even said that at the end of the day, it's on Peyton's shoulders whether they win or lose.

I'm plenty old enough to have seen Marino, Montana, Young, Sims, Elway, Aikman, Favre, Big Ben and Brady. And I would take Peyton over everyone right now. He is a coach on the field, he needs a defense, always has.

I even remember a bit of Bradshaw and Staubach. Certainly Theisman and Williams, Peyton is QB1 and Brees is awesome; I love him. It is a team game to the fullest and that is why I pick Peyton.

Congrats Drew with the most accurate of accurate mechanics. Simply awesome!!

[Ghost of]

Interesting that I just heard Steve Young say the pick 6 was on Reggie Wayne for not sealing off the corner on the route.

First of all, I never said he wasn't one of the best. The title of the thread is "Peyton Manning and Big Moments Do Not Mix." Hell, I wouldn't want Karl Malone with his hands on the ball in the final seconds but only a total moron would say he isn't UP there among the best PFs of all time.

As for that thing, I firmly believe that Manning is the most recent anointed and they will provide any excuse. The route may or may not have been sealed well but Manning has a responsibility to account for the defender, throw the ball well and do what he had done the entire rest of the game. That his pick just HAPPENED To be the one that effectively killed his team is not coincidence.

And as I pointed out before, Manning couldn't even punch it in at the end there. hell, Even Jason Campbell occasionally does that and he couldn't do it. He threw a SECOND PICK down there at the end but was bailed out because the offensive interference rendered it an out-of-bounds catch. He choked TWICE in this game, not just once. Once, maybe you just say it's your time to have a mistake. HE did it TWICE (not even giving them a chance to get an onside.)

and as for best QB in the league, props to SkinsTime on CPND for this info (Brees is the best right now):

http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=71&f=1348&t=5517775

Why didn’t Brees win the MVP?

QB Rating:

Brees: 109.6

Manning: 99.9

Completion Percentage:

Brees:70.6%

Manning:68.8%

Yards:

Brees: 4388

Manning:4500

Yards Per Attempt:

Brees: 8.5

Manning: 7.9

Yards Per Game:

Brees: 292.2

Manning: 281.3

TD:

Brees: 34

Manning:33

INT:

Brees: 11

Manning: 16

Team Points Scored:

Brees: 510

Manning: 416

Team Wins:

Brees: 13

Manning:14

Opposing Team win %:

Brees: 8th Hardest (.557)

Manning:13th Hardest (.512)

Average Opposing team Defensive Rank / Number of teams with 20 or worse ranking

Brees: 16 / 6

Manning: 19 / 9 (Side Note: If you remove the last two games of the season (Bills/Jets) in which Manning only played half the games he went against on average the 21st ranked defense)

Conclusion:

Brees had a better QB rating

Better completion percentage

Less yards, but only because he didn’t get as many attempts

More yards per attempt

More yards per game

More TDs

Less INTS

One less team win, but still won 13

94 more team points scored on offense

Faced a harder overall schedule

Faced harder defenses

Yes, the Colts were terrible when Manning was out, but Curtis Painter, a rookie 6th round pick was their QB, what do you expect? The Saints scored 10 points against Tampa with Brunell at QB and Brees on the bench.

[Ghost of]

Oh yeah, this is also Peyton's second pick six in the SB. haha

[Enter Apotheosis]

Why didn’t Brees win the MVP?

MVP is not an entirely statistical award (although Offensive Player of the Year is by and large) and a strong case could be made for either QB. Both posted impressive stats and Brees definitely has an edge in that category. However, Manning had to carry a Colts offense that featured the worst rushing attack in the league to a 14-0 record before they started resting players. Drew Brees at least had a complementary rushing attack that ranked sixth in the league and went 13-2 on the season. Team momentum also factors into the equation (like it or not) and the Colts were much hotter when they started sitting guys while the Saints lost their final two games with all of their starters in while still fighting for homefield advantage.

[TheLongshot]

I do find it funny that Marino and Manning are probably a couple of the best who ever played the game, but neither were good enough to win in the playoffs.

I still can't quite figure out how the Colts didn't win this game, since they seemed to run the ball very well all night. Maybe that was part of the problem: they didn't capitalize on that success. Sometimes, I wonder if they lean on Peyton too much. That was also true of Marino and the Dolphins.

Edit: It looks like NO did stop Indy's run game at key moments in the last two drives of the first half. One of which allowed the Saints to get a field goal to end the half.

[JKonaP]

And Peyton has won in the playoffs, even the SB. Marino was awesome; the fire in his eyes were the most intense I've ever seen. Too bad his team wasn't as in there as he was. His 2nd year in the league was insane, too bad it was his most statistically impressive...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

God, I love watching Peyton Manning fail.

[Riggins77]

Brady, three rings while Manning is still hoping to deliver a clutch performance when it matters most. Meanwhile Brady has, what, THREE game-winning/sealing drives in three SBs? And it was his D that gave up the TD to the Giants in 2007.

Three game winning drives where their kicker saved their ass all three times.

[Riggins77]

MVP is not an entirely statistical award (although Offensive Player of the Year is by and large) and a strong case could be made for either QB. Both posted impressive stats and Brees definitely has an edge in that category. However, Manning had to carry a Colts offense that featured the worst rushing attack in the league to a 14-0 record before they started resting players. Drew Brees at least had a complementary rushing attack that ranked sixth in the league and went 13-2 on the season. Team momentum also factors into the equation (like it or not) and the Colts were much hotter when they started sitting guys while the Saints lost their final two games with all of their starters in while still fighting for homefield advantage.

Drew Brees and the starters didn't play the final game which was against Carolina.

[#98QBKiller]

This thread reeks of fail.

Manning has screwed up some big games but he's also won some big games. To downplay his career achievements and to try to simply seal up the GOAT argument on one pick is lame and inaccurate.

There will always be disagreements as to who the GOAT is for NFL QBs, but Manning is absolutely in the discussion. He's eaten Joe Montana's stats for breakfast, he's won a Super Bowl in his career (something Marino couldn't do, yet people want to make the case for him being GOAT).

Maybe Drew Brees is a better QB than Manning right now maybe he's not. Manning put a team that is dead last in rushing offense on his shoulders and took them to the Super Bowl.

When is the last time the Colts missed the playoffs? It's been nearly a decade. This is only the 2nd time Brees has gotten the Saints into the playoffs and he only got the Chargers there once. Manning doesn't need a top rushing attack or a brand new Gregg Williams defense to push his team into contention. He can do it by himself.

I'm not trying to downplay Brees' accomplishments either but to pretend like he's hands-down a better QB than Manning (or Brady for that matter) is silly.

[Fred Jones]

I looked at the game last night and I kept thinking that the Colts were outcoached on both sides of the ball.

Taking a different perspective on this, I thought Williams outcoached Manning and his coaches. Willaims came with a new game plan. The Colts appeared to use their tired old approach. No creativity. The Colts didn't appear to adjust or allow Manning to overcome what Williams was doing. The interception was a perfect example. Same tired old predictable route they always run. That works during the season, but the SB is about coming up with inventive and different ways to beat your opponent. SB history will tell you that.

Colt offensive coaches failed Manning. That said, Manning is still under center and it is his job to get things done. Williams used the fact that the Colts have been running the same offense for the last decade. Since their coordinator is retiring they should bring someone fresh in and change the offense up. Get someone fresh, young and creative so they can outcoach the opponent.

[Fred Jones]

98QBKiller, good read. The Colts are a good team, but would struggle to make the playoffs without Manning. He is their team. The Colts defense couldn't cover or stop Brees and his offense. Manning didn't have as many opportunities as he is used to succeed. Meaning, Manning had to make far less mistakes. The drop by the WR in the second quarter that killed a drive was key. He catches that and they have another set of downs. He dropped it and the Colts offense really doesn't see the ball the rest of the quarter.

And, the injury to Freeney is another reason why you don't tie up so much money in one player. When he is healthy he is great. When he is hurt, you don't have money to pay other players that step in and take his place. Just look at the skins this year as an example.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

At some point, you are all going to accept the fact that there are no such thing as "clutch" and join me in my bliss.

[Hooper]

I thought Manning played well. The pick was killer -- pretty much the only mistake he made all game and it cost him big. More than anything, I thought the Saints pulled off a great gameplan on both sides of the ball.

My opinion of Manning certainly hasn't changed. I think he's far and away the best QB in the league. He would make any team an instant playoff contender -- any team. Put him on the Browns and they start beating people. I don't think you can say that about anyone else, though Brees certainly deserves consideration. Brady... well, I love the guy but I think he was exposed a bit when Cassell went in and the team didn't struggle all that much.

But whatever. I think Peyton has five great years left easy. He's not going anyway anytime soon. He'll just come back stronger and more determined next year.

[Hooper]

The idea that people still think Brady is better than Manning... well, it's cute.

And I say this as a huge fan of Brady.