Peyton Manning and Big Moments Do Not Mix

[Ghost of]

BTW,

Here is the replay of the pick. His receiver in the middle of the field is considerably open, Wayne is not. People blame Wayne but Manning should have thrown to Austin Collie. He probably would have had the first down and more with an in-stride pass. Instead, Manning went all JC out there and threw the pick six to essentially lose. And Collie lined up and ran near Wayne for his route, so it's not as if Manning wouldn't have seen him.

EDIT: UPDATE--Apparently, Wayne actually ran his route the correct way, he was supposed to widen it---that's one of their signature plays. Porter's film study tipped him off, he saw Collie run his route and knew what to do. The whole thing about blaming Wayne is pathetic because Porter was ABLE TO MAKE THE PLAY BECAUSE THE ROUTE WAS RUN THE WAY HE SAW IT ON FILM AND HOW IT WAS RUN IN THE GAME PREVIOUSLY. You can maybe blame Wayne for not reacting quick enough to stop the huge negative play but that's on Manning to throw to Collie instead.

So please, dispense with blaming Wayne for that.

And then couldn't even score at the end and basically threw ANOTHER pick (foot out of bounds) when he still had a chance to MAYBE pull of the miracle.

[Spartacus87]

One thing I don't believe I've seen so far, is that nobody's addressed the fact that Peyton didn't stick around to shake hands with Brees or any of the Saints players, even though I've seen people around here criticize Belichick and Tom Brady for doing the same thing.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

One thing I don't believe I've seen so far, is that nobody's addressed the fact that Peyton didn't stick around to shake hands with Brees or any of the Saints players, even though I've seen people around here criticize Belichick and Tom Brady for doing the same thing.

Actually there was mention of it. Drew Brees said that with the mob scene after the game he left the field. But Peyton did catch up with him and his teammates after it all died down to congratulate them.

[Hooper]

One thing I don't believe I've seen so far, is that nobody's addressed the fact that Peyton didn't stick around to shake hands with Brees or any of the Saints players, even though I've seen people around here criticize Belichick and Tom Brady for doing the same thing.

It's a fair thing to point out. Course, the Pats were hated at the time because of their dominance and spygate. Plus, Belichick had made a habit of being a jerk so the media was bound to pounce on him. Ya reap what ya sow.

[darklight1216]

One thing I don't believe I've seen so far, is that nobody's addressed the fact that Peyton didn't stick around to shake hands with Brees or any of the Saints players, even though I've seen people around here criticize Belichick and Tom Brady for doing the same thing.

Everyone loves Peyton Manning though; there's a difference.

[21cents]

I think its amazing how we are even having this convo when manning has about 7 years with 4-5 years of elite status left on his football career.

Manning is 33 years old with 4 MVPs, 1 superbowl, 1 superbowl mvp and pretty much every record or on pace for.

Lets look at some of the best qbs to ever play the game.

Unitas won his first superbowl at age 37. Elway was 37. Young was 33. Iam pretty confident to say manning will have atlest couple more superbowl visits. Win or lose by the time he hangs it up he should own every record, atlest 4 mvps, if he can add 1-2 more rings it shouldnt be question who is the best. Most QB's get in their prime around the age of 32-33. I dont think we have seen the best of manning in the playoffs. Everyone someone doubts him or everytime he fails he comes back stronger and accomplishes it. Thats what makes peyton so good, because he wasnt always good or the best but he works hard and adjusts his game to be the best. He has the flexibility to comeback next season and dominate a team or game inwhich he failed to make plays or made mistakes the previous year. Colts defense and running game will only get better. With bob sanders back and those rookie wrs getting more experience and the return of tony gonzalez. Does anyone doubt colts wont be motivated to win it all next year?

[boofMcboof]

Peyton Manning is without a doubt the greatest QB in the history of the NFL . . . in the regular season.

Peyton Manning just doesn't posses the leadership skills nor the clutch ability of the truly elite champions. Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Jordan, Kobe. These guys were/are cold-blooded, cool and calculating in the last few minutes of games. They also had the ability to communicate and get everyone on the same page and focused but at the same time not tense. Montana use to crack jokes in the huddle to keep everyone loose. Favre had the ability to rally his teammates and get them to run into a brick wall if he wanted. Nothing could shake Jordan's will. Teams take on the personalities of their leaders, the head coach and field general.

What does Manning do? He hangs his head, gives that Manning face and passive-aggressively blames losses on the defense or offensive line. Everyone could tell the Colts were playing tight. What the Colts mostly needed in this Superbowl was a leader with the ability to rally his troops.

Oh, and one last thing. How many important outdoor games has Manning won in cold weather?

[Hooper]

I think its amazing how we are even having this convo when manning has about 7 years with 4-5 years of elite status left on his football career.

Manning is 33 years old with 4 MVPs, 1 superbowl, 1 superbowl mvp and pretty much every record or on pace for.

Lets look at some of the best qbs to ever play the game.

Unitas won his first superbowl at age 37. Elway was 37. Young was 33. Iam pretty confident to say manning will have atlest couple more superbowl visits. Win or lose by the time he hangs it up he should own every record, atlest 4 mvps, if he can add 1-2 more rings it shouldnt be question who is the best. Most QB's get in their prime around the age of 32-33. I dont think we have seen the best of manning in the playoffs. Everyone someone doubts him or everytime he fails he comes back stronger and accomplishes it. Thats what makes peyton so good, because he wasnt always good or the best but he works hard and adjusts his game to be the best. He has the flexibility to comeback next season and dominate a team or game inwhich he failed to make plays or made mistakes the previous year. Colts defense and running game will only get better. With bob sanders back and those rookie wrs getting more experience and the return of tony gonzalez. Does anyone doubt colts wont be motivated to win it all next year?

Bravo.

The haters are coming out of the woodwork now, but come on, if you were starting a team there isn't anyone you would take before Manning. It's not even close.

There's a good chance the guy has five great years left. That is insane. He's nowhere close to done -- the fact that he's even in the greatest ever discussion when he's still in his prime speaks volumes.

[skinpride1]

Kind of funny that both Peyton and Favre handed the game to the Saints in the final minutes with pics. Kudos to the Saints they still had to catch the ball and got to love it for them what all they have been through!

Peyton will be back in another super bowl before he retires.

[chipwhich]

It's pretty sad on a Redskins board to mock a QB who we would love to have. How many Redskins QB's have participated in 2 Super Bowls?

How many Redskins QB's have won more than one Super Bowl?

How many Redskins QB's have the opportunity to win more on todays roster?

How many Super Bowls did Brett Farve win/participate in?

Guys with more than two Super Bowl wins had OUTSTANDING teams.

I'll take Peyton in a heartbeat. The guy is a class act and a winner.

[GhostofSparta]

Dan Marino went 0-1 in the Super Bowl. He lost how many years in a row to Jim Kelly and the Bills? He lost how many playoff games while holding how many records until Brett Favre unretired for the 12th time? And most people would still put Marino in the top 5 of all time QBs.

Peyton Manning is Dan Marino with a ring.

[chipwhich]

Peyton Manning is Dan Marino with a ring.

Peyton Manning is Brett Farve with 5+ years left in his career.

It's all silly.

Super Bowls aren't easy to win. You could say the multiple SB winners had better teams than Peyton, Farve and Marino.

Or you can just be a hater. :evilg:

[[[ghost]]]

Peyton still has a minimum of 4 years of elite football left in him.

You don't think that with the excellent player personnel that the Colts have, that they don't win one more Super Bowl in that time span?

If he even wins one more, than nobody will ever be able to argue that he isn't the greatest of all time. If he wins 2 more, than great QBs will rise out of their graves to annoint him.

[darklight1216]

It's pretty sad on a Redskins board to mock a QB who we would love to have. How many Redskins QB's have participated in 2 Super Bowls?

Has anyone said that he was inferior the Redskins QB?

Peyton Manning is without a doubt the greatest QB in the history of the NFL . . . in the regular season.

Peyton Manning just doesn't posses the leadership skills nor the clutch ability of the truly elite champions. Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Jordan, Kobe. These guys were/are cold-blooded, cool and calculating in the last few minutes of games. They also had the ability to communicate and get everyone on the same page and focused but at the same time not tense. Montana use to crack jokes in the huddle to keep everyone loose. Favre had the ability to rally his teammates and get them to run into a brick wall if he wanted. Nothing could shake Jordan's will. Teams take on the personalities of their leaders, the head coach and field general.

What does Manning do? He hangs his head, gives that Manning face and passive-aggressively blames losses on the defense or offensive line. Everyone could tell the Colts were playing tight. What the Colts mostly needed in this Superbowl was a leader with the ability to rally his troops.

Ouch. Lol, I'm not even that hard on him.

Oh, and one last thing. How many important outdoor games has Manning won in cold weather?

Well he has been able to outshoot the offensive juggernaut in Baltimore for the last 8 meetings. Baltimore is outdoors and sometimes cold. Does that count? Otherwise, not so many. He plays indoors, what do you expect?

Okay here is a real example. Manning has won in Pittsburgh once in his career.... unless I'm mistaken, which is possible.

I think its amazing how we are even having this convo when manning has about 7 years with 4-5 years of elite status left on his football career.

Manning is 33 years old with 4 MVPs, 1 superbowl, 1 superbowl mvp and pretty much every record or on pace for.

Lets look at some of the best qbs to ever play the game.

Unitas won his first superbowl at age 37. Elway was 37. Young was 33. Iam pretty confident to say manning will have atlest couple more superbowl visits. Win or lose by the time he hangs it up he should own every record, atlest 4 mvps, if he can add 1-2 more rings it shouldnt be question who is the best. Most QB's get in their prime around the age of 32-33. I dont think we have seen the best of manning in the playoffs. Everyone someone doubts him or everytime he fails he comes back stronger and accomplishes it. Thats what makes peyton so good, because he wasnt always good or the best but he works hard and adjusts his game to be the best. He has the flexibility to comeback next season and dominate a team or game inwhich he failed to make plays or made mistakes the previous year. Colts defense and running game will only get better. With bob sanders back and those rookie wrs getting more experience and the return of tony gonzalez. Does anyone doubt colts wont be motivated to win it all next year?

Woah there, you do realize that Johnny U had won two championships before the SuperBowl even existed, right?

Unitas won his first NFL championship in his second year as a full time starter. He led the league in passing, won league MVP, and won a Championship in his second year, something which, incidentally, Manning has never accomplished in over a decade of pro football.

];7289055']Peyton still has a minimum of 4 years of elite football left in him.

You don't think that with the excellent player personnel that the Colts have' date=' that they don't win one more Super Bowl in that time span?

If he even wins one more, than nobody will ever be able to argue that he isn't the greatest of all time. If he wins 2 more, than great QBs will rise out of their graves to annoint him.[/quote']

It took Manning like 8 years to win his first Super Bowl so I wouldn't be particularly surprised if he didn't win another one before he retires.

[Ghost of]

Some of you cats don't read a post, you read a tone into a post and decided that's what you will argue.

I did NOT argue anywhere in this thread at any time or at any point in my life that:

1) Peyton Manning is not a good QB

2) That Manning is not going to the HoF

3) That I would not love to have Manning as the QB of the Skins right now and for the next 5 years or so.

4) That I do not believe we could win a SB with our talent in, say, 2005 or 2007 and Manning at QB.

5) That Manning is only a "choker."

He simply is exceeded in his big game postseason moments by other QBs in NFL history and his difficulty with the moments that matter most is not a new thing and has continued. Hell, I could argue he's like Brett Favre, honestly. That's not a bad thing to be, but it's not quite the same as Joe Montana either.

WHat I have argued is that what makes someone the GOAT (as opposed to one of the greats) is the ability to make the GREAT play when your team needs it, rather than the losing play (or simply not showing up at all.)

When you look at the Colts records and first place finishes, what you see is a team that has every reason to have the same number of SB wins/appearances as the Patriots, but has a ton of one and dones during Manning's tenure, compared to other Qbs who don't tend to lose the very first game (and win SBs) in the playoffs and yes, 2 SBs (with 3 additional seasons with Manning compared to, say, Brady and 6 more than Big Ben)

Brees made the plays and played within himself (read the article about how they decided to play it safe and not make the huge plays and force mistakes) and Manning just happened to throw a pick six on a play that the defender recognized from film study and ate up when there was an open man in the middle of the field.

As for 21cents assertion that Manning isn't finished--hell, Favre hasn't been finished for how long and when was his last SB appearance?--the 90s! Sanchez is no Manning but if he develops further and San Diego can find a way to sustain their run game and Brady gets back to being fully healthy, why does anyone think the Colts will return in that time? Do people realize they've had some REALLY good teams, with homefield and first place finishes and done nothing. Didn't they get a whole THREE points vs. the Patriots after Manning threw for 49 TDs? If the Chargers can ever figure out a way to get a kicker who doesn't choke every big kick that matters, I don't see why they won't continue to beat the Colts.

The Steelers tend to have down years following SBs but there is NO reason to suspect that another offseason won't have them ready. Flacco could take that next step. Schaub and Co. are still a middling team but they definitely have the offense to compete with the Colts now.

We don't KNOW that Manning will be back, we only suspect so. He could miss the whole year with an injury and witness his short-lived GOAT crown get taken right back from the guy who was the consensus before his injury. Or some totally new guy will somehow be called GOAT.

[Taylor 21]

Two words. Rex Grossman.

But they made it to the superbowl............................ this thread is ridiculous.

[darklight1216]

Here's some food for thought.

Don't know if you saw the following incident during pre-Super Bowl coverage. I actually watched very little the past two weeks. The hype and repetition gets old. But this grabbed my attention for sure.

Anyway during the incident Jeff Saturday, Colts Pro Bowl center, muttered something in frustration as the offense was coming off the field. He thought the Colts needed to run the ball near the goal line. This set Peyton Manning off and he went out of his way and blasted Saturday who was sitting with other offensive linemen. Manning was really out of line yet he would later put a positive spin on it and define it in so many words as a healthy confrontation to clear the air.

That’s fine.

What shocked me was another Colt, Tarik Glenn stood toe-to-toe, face-to-face with Manning, forcefully telling the golden boy to, “Go sit down!"

Often these kinds of (stand-up) incidents do not happen without some background climate.

Interestingly enough, Glenn a Pro Bowl tackle in 2004, 2005 and 2006 retired after the 2006 season at the age of 30 claiming he lost his passion for football.

http://mrmojorizon.blogspot.com/2010...linger-in.html

Some of you cats don't read a post, you read a tone into a post and decided that's what you will argue.

I did NOT argue anywhere in this thread at any time or at any point in my life that:

1) Peyton Manning is not a good QB

2) That Manning is not going to the HoF

3) That I would not love to have Manning as the QB of the Skins right now and for the next 5 years or so.

4) That I do not believe we could win a SB with our talent in, say, 2005 or 2007 and Manning at QB.

5) That Manning is only a "choker."

He simply is exceeded in his big game postseason moments by other QBs in NFL history and his difficulty with the moments that matter most is not a new thing and has continued. Hell, I could argue he's like Brett Favre, honestly. That's not a bad thing to be, but it's not quite the same as Joe Montana either.

WHat I have argued is that what makes someone the GOAT (as opposed to one of the greats) is the ability to make the GREAT play when your team needs it, rather than the losing play (or simply not showing up at all.)

When you look at the Colts records and first place finishes, what you see is a team that has every reason to have the same number of SB wins/appearances as the Patriots, but has a ton of one and dones during Manning's tenure, compared to other Qbs who don't tend to lose the very first game (and win SBs) in the playoffs and yes, 2 SBs (with 3 additional seasons with Manning compared to, say, Brady and 6 more than Big Ben)

Brees made the plays and played within himself (read the article about how they decided to play it safe and not make the huge plays and force mistakes) and Manning just happened to throw a pick six on a play that the defender recognized from film study and ate up when there was an open man in the middle of the field.

As for 21cents assertion that Manning isn't finished--hell, Favre hasn't been finished for how long and when was his last SB appearance?--the 90s! Sanchez is no Manning but if he develops further and San Diego can find a way to sustain their run game and Brady gets back to being fully healthy, why does anyone think the Colts will return in that time? Do people realize they've had some REALLY good teams, with homefield and first place finishes and done nothing. Didn't they get a whole THREE points vs. the Patriots after Manning threw for 49 TDs? If the Chargers can ever figure out a way to get a kicker who doesn't choke every big kick that matters, I don't see why they won't continue to beat the Colts.

The Steelers tend to have down years following SBs but there is NO reason to suspect that another offseason won't have them ready. Flacco could take that next step. Schaub and Co. are still a middling team but they definitely have the offense to compete with the Colts now.

We don't KNOW that Manning will be back, we only suspect so. He could miss the whole year with an injury and witness his short-lived GOAT crown get taken right back from the guy who was the consensus before his injury. Or some totally new guy will somehow be called GOAT.

:applause: Well said.

[chipwhich]

He simply is exceeded in his big game postseason moments by other QBs in NFL history

Yeah but this is where the point gets kinda silly.

I would argue all of the QB's with at least 2 rings played on better teams than Peyton. Peyton IS the Colts.

He didn't lose the game sunday. His team lost. No defense, no ability to run. Poor decisions at critical time (Stover trying anything over 40, 3 straight runs to end their last possession in the first half.

Name the 10 QB's in NFL history you would rather have than Peyton.

[Hooper]

The Colts will always be a threat to go deep into the playoffs as long as Manning is under center -- no matter how weak other aspects of their team are. Can you say that about any other QB in the league? Manning raises everybody's game. I mean, raise your hand if you heard of Garcon or Collie before the season (or at least thought of them as big-time players).

The Saints played a perfect game on Sunday. Manning threw a bad pick. He also wasn't helped by his defense or receivers. The bashers coming out was predictable -- it's what us sportsfans do. The biggest ones were of course Patriots fans. Hey, I love Brady too, but do you think the Colts would ever win 11 games without Manning under center? No way.

Greatest ever? I think Manning will be labeled that without question by the time he retires. But that's just my opinion. For now, I'll just enjoy watching him play. It's a privilege.

[pjfootballer]

I'd still take him over any other QB in the game today, no matter how "few" rings he has or how may times he "chokes". The man will have you in the mix every year and that is what it's all about. Having a chance.

[darklight1216]

The Colts will always be a threat to go deep into the playoffs as long as Manning is under center -- no matter how weak other aspects of their team are. Can you say that about any other QB in the league? Manning raises everybody's game. I mean, raise your hand if you heard of Garcon or Collie before the season (or at least thought of them as big-time players).

The Saints played a perfect game on Sunday. Manning threw a bad pick. He also wasn't helped by his defense or receivers. The bashers coming out was predictable -- it's what us sportsfans do. The biggest ones were of course Patriots fans. Hey, I love Brady too, but do you think the Colts would ever win 11 games without Manning under center? No way.

Greatest ever? I think Manning will be labeled that without question by the time he retires. But that's just my opinion. For now, I'll just enjoy watching him play. It's a privilege.

Collie and Garcon had combined for one year of experience and zero starts prior to 2009.

[DeMarco Murray 29]

I mean, raise your hand if you heard of Garcon or Collie before the season (or at least thought of them as big-time players).

I cannot take claim for Garcon that Garcon would be good, but I had heard of him. But Collie on the other hand ... I was hyping him up a few months before the draft. I had the Austin Collie sig and all that on another board. I thought he would be good but he was better then I even thought he would be.

[Ghost of]

Ok, so we haven't heard of Garcon or Collie but somehow WINNING a SB with the likes of Brown, Givens and Patten is having superior talent?

What I'm saying is there are already guys who do this in the league, Peyton is not the only guy and Dallas Clark is an excellent player and so is Reggie Wayne. Drew Brees had Colston and other guys out and kept clicking.

Again, Peyton is not the only guy to do this. Brady won with inferior wideouts. Now that he has better talent (though I wonder about Welker and being, to a degree, a system producer) at wideout, he puts up some nice numbers but he actually won with guys like Jermaine Wiggins making clutch catches and with total bums like Greg Robinson-Randall at tackle and Antowain Smith, a mediocre talent on his last legs at running back.

So anything you say for Manning could be said about some other guys, including Brady and Brees. Both Brady and Brees have put up some great performances with 'no-names' or guys who they would MOLD into "names."

And the thing an earlier poster said about him needing a defense? Uh--he had a defense in 2006, that's why his 3 TDs and 7 INTs was able to still win a SB that postseason (that and Addai.) And if defense was always the issue how is it he threw 4 picks, put up few points against the Patriots and threw picks vs. the Chargers last year (it was last year, right?) to end their hopes. Defense is not to blame when you score 3 points after throwing for a record amount of TDs is it? Sure, if the Colts had scored 17 and the Pats beat them 20-17, then you can say it was just evenly matched up that is not the story. And what about Brady's defense collapsing in 2006 AFCC? You can play this game both ways. The guy who REALLY has no D has been Drew Brees up until this year.

I submit that Brees, since going to NO has been a better QB than Manning, but with an inferior overall organization (though much improved, of course, from the old days) and defensive supporting cast.

We'll see how it plays out but I think it's laughable that so many are willing to write this guy in as GOAT and are defending every mistake and flaw and trumpeting every positive trait as somehow singular to Manning when the other elite QBs pretty much do the same things he does. The fact that he is like a "coach" on the field is actually mirrored by Brees anticipating Payton's calls based on down, distance and situation, and Charlie Weiss saying that it was Brady's work and superior grasp of the game that enabled his success---that Manning does more gesticulating, yelling, etc simply leads people to believe he is doing more than guys like Brady or Brees, when they are his equal in their approach and understanding of the game. It's the thing they share. And if two other QBs in the game have done similar things and have put up superior seasons (compt pct plus SB win plus SB MVP for Brees, and a 5000 yard season with injuries to wideouts; Brady with TD record, massive yardage and undefeated regular season) and share traits with Manning---then he isn't as singular in his talents as some of you insist.

And again---NOWHERE IN MY THREAD did I state that I wouldn't take Manning right now over JC or almost any other QB. For health, I'd take him over Brady but I'd probably take Brees right now over Manning. But clearly he is one of the greats. What I'm saying is that his two rivals are clearly his equals and that if he's getting consideration for GOAT we should review what criteria we are employing in such a judgment and I find him to be inadequate in the face of what others have done, often with less advantageous situations.

BTW, the Colts had Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Glenn at LT along with Pollard at TE and Dominic Rhodes backing up James, I believe before this new iteration of the Colts. That is VASTLY superior to what Brady has had in his title years or what Brees just won with (though they have some talent, it's not as complete, they're more like parts that complement each other) But yet he gets excuses for his D (Brees D was worse until this year) and now for his 'lack' of offensive talent when he had vastly superior talent and did nothing with it and was beaten by QBs putting up better performances with inferior offensive talent.

[Big Blue Joe]

The Colts will always be a threat to go deep into the playoffs as long as Manning is under center -- no matter how weak other aspects of their team are.

That's not really true. The Colts defense has played a huge role in Indy's success over the last 5 years. In the 2006 playoffs, their play made up for Peyton's lackluster efforts and elevated the team to a Superbowl win. That D is one of the most underrated units in the entire NFL.

[Big Blue Joe]

Collie and Garcon had combined for one year of experience and zero starts prior to 2009.

2009 was the year of the rookie WR. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 10, and I'm sure there are more that I am forgetting, who made a significant impact on their team:

Crabtree

Harvin

Maclin

Britt

Nicks

Massoquoi

Wallace

Knox

Collie

Murphy

BTW, the Colts had Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Glenn at LT along with Pollard at TE and Dominic Rhodes backing up James, I believe before this new iteration of the Colts. That is VASTLY superior to what Brady has had in his title years or what Brees just won with (though they have some talent, it's not as complete, they're more like parts that complement each other) But yet he gets excuses for his D (Brees D was worse until this year) and now for his 'lack' of offensive talent when he had vastly superior talent and did nothing with it and was beaten by QBs putting up better performances with inferior offensive talent.

From the time Dallas Clark was drafted in 2003 until Gonzalez got injured this year, Peyton essentially had nothing but first round picks at all of the Colts' starting skill player positions.