A great quarterback makes a bad O-line look good

[jtyler42]

-Statistics don't tell the full story plain and simple. I watched the KC game, and I saw an offense start opening up with a backup QB, one of the first few plays was a bomb to Moss, which was one of our biggest plays of the season up until that point. If you watched the game, and honestly think Campbell did better than Collins, we can agree to disagree, I believed the offense looked better with a career backup, playing QB.

Okay that was ONE PASS...He completed a bomb to Moss, we got it...But what kind of sustained offense did we have? How many points did we score? People keep bringing up that one pass like it won us the game...It didn't...Our OL/pass protection scheme is horrible...

To compare Pitt and GB's OL's to ours is ridiculous...The QB's on those teams are sacked b/c they hold the ball I have not seen a team give up so many free rushers as our OL does...The thing that's crazy too is that teams don't/the Giants didn't(only when we went empty backfield) really blitz us that much b/c JC is actually good against the blitz our OL gives up free rushers against 3 and 4 man rushes, and can't pick up a stunt for ****...

that's simply not true

While some superior QB skills help prevent some sacks, It can't hide the pressure, and the hits a QB takes, it doesn't cover up a lack of run game.

the QB position is the most dependent position in all of sports, no matter how great, he must rely on other positions/players/ play calling to succeed.

Oh stop it Bubba! Don't bring logic and actual common football knowledge into this!

It is JC and it is the OL and it is the coaching (on both sides of the ball). However, JC has been here long enough and with enough different supporting casts to show that no matter who is put around him he's going to be mediocre unless he has the best OL and the best WRs and the best HC and the best RB and the best defense.

He is not a QB to build a team around if you want to be a consistent contender for the division and the SB.

He is not a bad QB but he's not a good one either.

I meant that thats a pretty good average. He said that he thought JC was capable of that every week, but he's not actually achieving that every week and to do so he needs everything around him to be perfect.

No he doesn't need everything around him to be perfect...He just needs those around him to provide a professional effort...When that happens he plays pretty damn well...I can only think of one game this yr where everything around him was perfect and that was the NO game, other than that game the protection has been below average to horrible for the past 21 games now...

I don't understand what people want JC to do short of walk on water, and part the Red Sea? They don't allow audibles, they don't allow him to change the protections, he has the worst OL in the NFL in front of him, He only has TWO reliable pass catching targets in Cooley and Davis and Cooley is out for the season...In this environment what we are seeing from JC right now is about as good as it will get with any QB out there until the level of talent as a whole is upgraded on the offensive side of the ball...

[Main-Maine]

I don't understand what people want JC to do short of walk on water, and part the Red Sea? They don't allow audibles, they don't allow him to change the protections, he has the worst OL in the NFL in front of him, He only has TWO reliable pass catching targets in Cooley and Davis and Cooley is out for the season...In this environment what we are seeing from JC right now is about as good as it will get with any QB out there until the level of talent as a whole is upgraded on the offensive side of the ball...

Man you win! I been saying this the entire time, people just want a QB to come in an do stuff just like this no matter what..

[Llevron]

The lack of objectivity some of you have in regards to JC is staggering. Seriously, just unbelievable.

[RocketCitySkins]

The lack of objectivity some of you have in regards to JC is staggering. Seriously, just unbelievable.

Objectivity? What's that? :hysterical:

It that like in the KC game when Portis ran for 76 yards, Collins throws 3 incomplete passes, we kick a field goal and people give Collins credit for a scoring drive.

Then in the Dallas game, JC leads a drive down the field including passing for a first down, we run 3 straight running plays, Suisham misses a field goal that would have sealed the game but JC lost the game for us.

Or maybe like the mic'ed up game when JC threw two TD passes that were dropped and we hear Zorn say he's running the ball in the redzone the rest of the game because the WR can't hold unto the ball. But those 2 passes that would have been TD's don't count. But Collins in the Giants game throws an endzone pass that Davis' drops and he is given credit for 2 great passes.

You mean that kind of objectivity?

[MumboSauce]

I think a good to great QB can somewhat neutralize or minimize the deficiencies of a Oline that isn't that good but, there aren't that many elite QB's floating around however. that's only somewhat, you're still going to have problems, a bad line is a bad line, no running game, and getting hit on a 3 step drop is just not a good formula.

Collins isn't the answer, yet he will make bad line occasionally not so bad because he reads pre snap and post snap quicker and gets the ball out on time. He'd get murdered back there eventually.

[Chicken Fried]

i meant soft coverage, they were willing to give up shorter passes just not big passes. a prevent-like defense

Why would they play soft coverage going into halftime? They wouldn't want us to score anything before halftime. They were playing normal defense. No need for more excuses.

[Llevron]

Objectivity? What's that? :hysterical:

It that like in the KC game when Portis ran for 76 yards, Collins throws 3 incomplete passes, we kick a field goal and people give Collins credit for a scoring drive.

Then in the Dallas game, JC leads a drive down the field including passing for a first down, we run 3 straight running plays, Suisham misses a field goal that would have sealed the game but JC lost the game for us.

Or maybe like the mic'ed up game when JC threw two TD passes that were dropped and we hear Zorn say he's running the ball in the redzone the rest of the game because the WR can't hold unto the ball. But those 2 passes that would have been TD's don't count. But Collins in the Giants game throws an endzone pass that Davis' drops and he is given credit for 2 great passes.

You mean that kind of objectivity?

Yea thats pretty much what im talking about lol

[Jeeb]

Yea thats pretty much what im talking about lol

I'm trying to figure out if Campbell took a dump in their cereal one morning.

[crabstep98]

Okay that was ONE PASS...He completed a bomb to Moss, we got it...But what kind of sustained offense did we have? How many points did we score? People keep bringing up that one pass like it won us the game...It didn't...Our OL/pass protection scheme is horrible...

To compare Pitt and GB's OL's to ours is ridiculous...The QB's on those teams are sacked b/c they hold the ball I have not seen a team give up so many free rushers as our OL does...The thing that's crazy too is that teams don't/the Giants didn't(only when we went empty backfield) really blitz us that much b/c JC is actually good against the blitz our OL gives up free rushers against 3 and 4 man rushes, and can't pick up a stunt for ****...

Oh stop it Bubba! Don't bring logic and actual common football knowledge into this!

No he doesn't need everything around him to be perfect...He just needs those around him to provide a professional effort...When that happens he plays pretty damn well...I can only think of one game this yr where everything around him was perfect and that was the NO game, other than that game the protection has been below average to horrible for the past 21 games now...

I don't understand what people want JC to do short of walk on water, and part the Red Sea? They don't allow audibles, they don't allow him to change the protections, he has the worst OL in the NFL in front of him, He only has TWO reliable pass catching targets in Cooley and Davis and Cooley is out for the season...In this environment what we are seeing from JC right now is about as good as it will get with any QB out there until the level of talent as a whole is upgraded on the offensive side of the ball...

I agree completely. I think Campbell does a hell of a job given the situation he finds himself in. We easily have to worst offensive line in the NFL and a pretty limited running game, yet Campbell has managed to put together a pretty good season.

Our offense is pretty one-dimensional at times, which makes it a lot harder because they know they only need a few guys to stop the run.

And these comparisons to Rodgers are outrageous. Rodgers has been in the same offensive system for four years, and was under the tutelage of some guy named Favre. I am a huge Aaron Rodgers fan, but lets be real, he came into a much better system than CAmpbell.

[Mooka]

You think a WR can be great with a crap QB throwing him the ball? Randy Moss? Wes Welker? You think a great WR can't make his QB look better? Andre Johnson? Larry Fitzgerald?

A great anything makes everything around him look better. What kind of question is that.

The Colts are great all across the board? They are a 14-0 team without Peyton Manning? You could sub maybe 20 offensive lines with the Colts current offensive line and they'd still be a potent offense. How many QBs could you sub with Peyton Manning for the same result? 2? 1?

[.THEkid.]

Anyone who thinks we need to surround JC with Pro Bowl Players (SERIOUSLY) is in denial and knows that JC is only a managable QB. And all this talk of defending JC, still claiming he's better then TC, are bafoons. When the giants led 17-0, I knew the game was over. Now I'm not bashing JC cause our OLine looked horrid. But when I saw TC come in, I blew my mind how THIS OLD BACKUP comes in time and time again, making a big play, with our horrid OLine. In the drive he actually led us to a TD (if not for Fred Davis dropping that pass before halftime).

JC is as good as gone, His stats should be thanked by his only targets which are, TEs and RBs. I really don't mind keeping him, only if we can upgrade the OLine, but honestly I want to see Colt get his shot. If our starting OLine is horrendous, I wonder what the backup OLine were like for Colt during Preseason. Build an OLine around Colt, and watch Thomas, Kelly, Marko, Davis, all look like Pro Bowlers. And if not him, draft a QB. At this point I really don't care, and if Shanahan comes here, I will bet my life, colt will be the starter.

[Springfield]

I'd like to know what kinds of stats Campbell has as far as hurries. NFL doesn't keep QB hurry stats so we will never know though.

[mi6]

40 yr old career backup that hasnt played in almost 2 yrs, never practices with the starters, comes in and hits moss for a big bomb vs the cheifs. only plays one half and ur reday to throw him under the gutter while candle is in hiis 50 start playing 5 yrs and u still want to give him another yr? another hilarious post.

but lets not jsut talk about the chiefs game. how about the giants game 3 days ago. u forgot that one huh pal? or how about those games 2 yrs ago to lead the skins to the playoffs?

it is what it is. we cant change it.

Jason Campbell "soup" is a dud! No ifs thens and buts about it. The guy is a natural born loser. He has been given ample opportunities to showcase what he can do -- and, over the past 5 years has nothing to show for it!

Don't forget we gave up the house on this guy -- 3 1st round pick, and that includes a first, third and fourth rounder.

Jason "dumbbell" Campbell is good as a backup, and that's that!

With JC as our QB, we have yet to score more than 24 TDs/ year, or 3,000 yards passing season.

How often has JC passed for over 300 yards and 4 TDs in a game? Hmm... Precisely, NEVER! :mad:

[#98QBKiller]

No he doesn't need everything around him to be perfect...He just needs those around him to provide a professional effort...When that happens he plays pretty damn well...I can only think of one game this yr where everything around him was perfect and that was the NO game, other than that game the protection has been below average to horrible for the past 21 games now...

I don't understand what people want JC to do short of walk on water, and part the Red Sea? They don't allow audibles, they don't allow him to change the protections, he has the worst OL in the NFL in front of him, He only has TWO reliable pass catching targets in Cooley and Davis and Cooley is out for the season...In this environment what we are seeing from JC right now is about as good as it will get with any QB out there until the level of talent as a whole is upgraded on the offensive side of the ball...

Obviously he does need everything to be right. I've never seen such a mediocre QB defended to the death like Campbell has been. Some fans are going on ridiculous excuse fests for this guy. First it was Joe Gibbs' conservative playcalling, then it was all of his offensive schemes since college, then it was that he didn't have any big WRs, now it's the OL, and on and on. Every ugly loss, there's always someone else to blame, but not good ol' JC. I'm convinced that some of you are defending him just for the sake of it at this point. There's no other reason that anyone could want to go on with this failed experiment of 5 years.

I've never argued that the OL isn't a problem BTW, it is. But so is JC.

[Ghost of]

This.

It's not 1987 anymore. You don't win without at least a very good overall QB performance (over the course of a season, obviously a guy can have a bad performance in a game or even part of a season, that's how teams work.)

That NEITHER entrant last year had an elite line should have put paid to this nonsense but apparently there are people who still think you can recreate the Hogs. YOU CANT. You CAN win multiple SBs with an elite QB and a mostly good defense (though NE always struggled in the Super Bowl on defense, other than the first one they won) even if you have a mediocre line or weak running game.

The game has changed people. There ARE no Hogs, not even the Vikings. The Vikings line has been owned at times (so were the Skins.) THe reasons the Vikings are a threat this season?

QB. And that's on a team with a pretty good defense, an elite DE, a talented and huge offensive line.

Were the Vikes a threat to go to the SB last year in spite of having all those things?

NO.

Are they a threat now? Yes. And even if their line was 25 percent worse than it is, they'd still be a threat.

Quarterback changes things.

[Chicken Fried]

Skip Bayless and some other guy were talking about how you need a franchise quarterback to win the Super Bowl, and they agreed that JC was not one. I agree with their overall assessment on both points. We need the rest of the team to be perfect for him to succeed. We can't coddle him anymore. Collins is 13 years older and showed a quicker release and quicker decision making.

[Chicken Fried]

At this point I really don't care, and if Shanahan comes here, I will bet my life, colt will be the starter.

That would be awesome. I still want Bradford, but if we don't get him, I'd love to give Colt his much-deserved shot.

[Ghost of]

Oh stop it Bubba! Don't bring logic and actual common football knowledge into this!

They don't allow audibles, they don't allow him to change the protections, he has the worst OL in the NFL in front of him, He only has TWO reliable pass catching targets in Cooley and Davis and Cooley is out for the season.

Why do you Campbell supporters always inject that bull**** into a thread? "Oh don't bring logic into this!!" Just because you make an assertion doesn't make it logical, congruent with reality or true in any meaningful sense. I submit that you do it because part of you realizes how ridiculous you people sound on this matter, over and over---it's NEVER Jason's fault---always someone else's.

As for the limitations placed on Campbell, do you realize they cut the field in half for Jason last season (one reason they gave for his early 'success'?) Did you know that Jason is not smart or in control enough to handle line protections, so Casey Rabach had to volunteer to take hold of them. No audibles. When has Jason shown that when he HAS audibled (do you not recall the audible in a 3rd and 8 to a run when there was a run blitz coming from that side) it's not been a success---maybe Saunders, Gibbs, Zorn and Lewis have all had to limit his responsibilities because he CANT HANDLE IT!

Notice how even Ramsey and Brunell didn't need them to limit the field, take protection out of their hands or need wristbands in order to look semi-competent for a few weeks.

God, I'm sick of you people bashing our players to protect one. Guess what---how the ___ do we know who is a reliable receiver since Davis and Cooley are BOTH TIGHT ENDS and Tight ends (just like with Vick) are the stand-by for QBs who can't throw to receivers or can't read defenses enough. It's easy to spot the TE, or have a designed play to get him to run after the catch. We don't have a reliable wideout because Jason won't GET IT TO HIM. That's the issue here.

I refuse to believe that Devin Thomas OR Malcolm Kelly aren't at least comparable in talent to Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon. Do you really think everything has to be GREAT around a QB. Hell, Rivers had Gates but look how long he had to deal with re-treads, never-will-bes, etc. How long did Vincent Jackson finally take to emerge as a legitimate receiver?

BTW, our line was fine until the end of last year and I'd argue the line last year wasn't any worse than the one that limped into Seattle postseason of 2007-8. Jason didn't look any better really.

IN FACT, contrary to moronic assertions--Jason looked better with a "bad line" this year in a few games than he did in 2007 early when the line was just fine.

[#98QBKiller]

The game has changed people. There ARE no Hogs, not even the Vikings. The Vikings line has been owned at times (so were the Skins.) THe reasons the Vikings are a threat this season?

QB. And that's on a team with a pretty good defense, an elite DE, a talented and huge offensive line.

Were the Vikes a threat to go to the SB last year in spite of having all those things?

NO.

Are they a threat now? Yes. And even if their line was 25 percent worse than it is, they'd still be a threat.

Quarterback changes things.

And the Vikings have an elite running back. And they still weren't a threat without a QB.

[seriously]

That would be awesome. I still want Bradford, but if we don't get him, I'd love to give Colt his much-deserved shot.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Bradford can't take hits in college, he'd probably get a tumor just watching NFL gamefilm.

[mistertim]

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Bradford can't take hits in college, he'd probably get a tumor just watching NFL gamefilm.

If we drafted Bradford I would be very worried about his ability to take a hit or handle pressure. The guy is crazy accurate, has a pretty good arm, and is a good leader. But he hardly ever sees pressure and much of the time has all day to throw the ball. He would have probably been diagnosed with PTSD soon after the game if he had to play behind our OL against the Giants pass rush.

[[[ghost]]]

who plays prevent going in to the half? this is almot funny as another homer saying that pass to moss by collins was a hail marry! LOL

You do realize that the Giants were up 24-0 at that point. That's the kind of that gets to play prevent defense going into the half.

I'm not saying it justifies why Collins stats looked so good. But I am saying that, on the list of embarassing things that happened Monday Night, this would be near the top.

[grego]

Why do you Campbell supporters always inject that bull**** into a thread? "Oh don't bring logic into this!!" Just because you make an assertion doesn't make it logical, congruent with reality or true in any meaningful sense. I submit that you do it because part of you realizes how ridiculous you people sound on this matter, over and over---it's NEVER Jason's fault---always someone else's.

i said earlier that i think its illogical to expect a QB to put up pro bowl numbers given that he's working with 1) no running game 2) WR's that dont appear to scare anyone and 3) a very very bad O line.

i would submit that all 3 are the worst in the division and its not even really debatable. so my question is, why expect the QB to put up bug #'s under these conditions?

i forgot to mention that he doesnt appear to have a HC that is capable of calling a football game.

As for the limitations placed on Campbell, do you realize they cut the field in half for Jason last season (one reason they gave for his early 'success'?) Did you know that Jason is not smart or in control enough to handle line protections, so Casey Rabach had to volunteer to take hold of them. No audibles. When has Jason shown that when he HAS audibled (do you not recall the audible in a 3rd and 8 to a run when there was a run blitz coming from that side) it's not been a success---maybe Saunders, Gibbs, Zorn and Lewis have all had to limit his responsibilities because he CANT HANDLE IT!

Notice how even Ramsey and Brunell didn't need them to limit the field, take protection out of their hands or need wristbands in order to look semi-competent for a few weeks.

that may be true.

God, I'm sick of you people bashing our players to protect one. Guess what---how the ___ do we know who is a reliable receiver since Davis and Cooley are BOTH TIGHT ENDS and Tight ends (just like with Vick) are the stand-by for QBs who can't throw to receivers or can't read defenses enough. It's easy to spot the TE, or have a designed play to get him to run after the catch. We don't have a reliable wideout because Jason won't GET IT TO HIM. That's the issue here.

I refuse to believe that Devin Thomas OR Malcolm Kelly aren't at least comparable in talent to Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon. Do you really think everything has to be GREAT around a QB. Hell, Rivers had Gates but look how long he had to deal with re-treads, never-will-bes, etc. How long did Vincent Jackson finally take to emerge as a legitimate receiver?

i think at least thomas looks like he could be very good. hopefully kelly and mitchell will get some time on the field to show what they can do. but i dont think our WR's are all that great at the moment.

BTW, our line was fine until the end of last year and I'd argue the line last year wasn't any worse than the one that limped into Seattle postseason of 2007-8. Jason didn't look any better really.

IN FACT, contrary to moronic assertions--Jason looked better with a "bad line" this year in a few games than he did in 2007 early when the line was just fine.

i think our line is horrendous, and much worse this year than in 07-08. i also think campbell has looked better in games this year than in 07-08, but i think thats to his credit.

btw, i've said before that i think collins is a better fit fot this system. campbell has a slow release (much quicker this year though), and has slow feet. combine that with my above complaints about his talent around him and its a recipe for disaster.

i dont think everything has to be perfect around him, i just would like to see what he can do with a respectable NFL quality line.

[Mahons21]

Okay that was ONE PASS...He completed a bomb to Moss, we got it...But what kind of sustained offense did we have? How many points did we score? People keep bringing up that one pass like it won us the game...It didn't...Our OL/pass protection scheme is horrible...

-Maybe some people acted that way but I did not. I said I saw a career backup QB come in and play as well as if not slightly outperform our starting QB. That makes me weary. But if you think Collins didn't out perform Campbell than we agree to disagree, either way, if you have a franchise QB this question doesn't even arise.

To compare Pitt and GB's OL's to ours is ridiculous...The QB's on those teams are sacked b/c they hold the ball I have not seen a team give up so many free rushers as our OL does...The thing that's crazy too is that teams don't/the Giants didn't(only when we went empty backfield) really blitz us that much b/c JC is actually good against the blitz our OL gives up free rushers against 3 and 4 man rushes, and can't pick up a stunt for ****...

-I'm not making any comparison of the sort, you should have taken a few moments to read through the debate before quoting me and taking what I said out of context.

-The person I was debating, said "statistically speaking, Campbell did better than Collins in the KC game." I responded with statistically speaking GB has a worse o-line than us, and statistically speaking Big Ben was a bad QB last year, I was simply showing that statistics don't always give you the most accurate judgement. In my opinion Collins outperformed JC in the KC game, even if the statistics show otherwise.

[Forever21]

Obviously he does need everything to be right. I've never seen such a mediocre QB defended to the death like Campbell has been. Some fans are going on ridiculous excuse fests for this guy. First it was Joe Gibbs' conservative playcalling, then it was all of his offensive schemes since college, then it was that he didn't have any big WRs, now it's the OL, and on and on. Every ugly loss, there's always someone else to blame, but not good ol' JC. I'm convinced that some of you are defending him just for the sake of it at this point. There's no other reason that anyone could want to go on with this failed experiment of 5 years.

I've never argued that the OL isn't a problem BTW, it is. But so is JC.

I believe that some people are holding onto JC as a possible franchise QB simply because he is our current starter. It's homerism run amok.

That or some people simply don't want to face the prospect of again having to find a franchise QB so they are stuck in denial.

Homerism or denial are the only two excuses for defending JC at this point.