A great quarterback makes a bad O-line look good

[#98QBKiller]

The original topic was about the OL specifically if a 'great' QB can make a 'bad' OL look good remember?

Nope, my original post was a rant about JC. It's the first thing we were talking about before you went off on tangents.

You might be confused because bashing Campbell is always your agenda in every thread.

You're quoting the title of the thread, not anything I posted. Blindly rushing to Campbell's defense in every thread is your agenda.

Thank you for admitting that i might have a point.

You're welcome.

Well that's exactly my point.

Our OL isn't as good as theirs, therefore when you claim that Rodgers and Rothlisberger are playing behind OL as bad or worse then ours is an inaccurate statement:

How is that a better question? We're not playing with our 1st string OL and neither are they.

Rodgers and Roethlisberger have been two of the most sacked QBs in the NFL in the last two seasons (longer for Roethlisberger because he's started longer). Comparing our injury-riddled line to their mostly healthy lines doesn't prove anything except that backups play worse than starters.

It would make as much sense as comparing Curtis Painter to Tom Brady and arguing that the Patriots have a better QB.

Actually this is the original topic.

I try not to respond to opinions or loaded question/biased questions.

And i'm not changing topics.

Like i said before to avoid confusion i'm only going to address a few points sometimes only 1 point at a time.

I'm not the one making these claims, why should i address them?

-Well, since i'm waiting for my feet to thaw out.....

LoL, this ^^is the definition of a loaded question.

Its a presupposition that forces the person that answer the question to concede that Jason isn't a leader.

If i were to ask you: why don't you know more about football?

I would be using the same loaded question tactic as you.

You are the one that thinks JC isn't a leader not me.

The onus is on you to prove it and tell us why he isn't a leader.

I asked you to address my points about why JC isnt' a leader, and my examples why he isn't. I didn't just say: "why isn't JC a good leader?" There's a difference because I added examples to back up my assertion that he isn't a good leader

I've already mentioned that his teammates to a man praise his leadership.

This is another example of you taking you're opinion or perception of JC as the truth.

And I've responded to you using media talk as an example as to why you think JC is a good leader, but you're still avoiding my points by dismissing them as "opinion or perception."

So essentially, you're saying "you think JC isnt' a good leader and I do, but I refuse to listen to any examples or defend my stance."

What does this have to do with me?

I've never said that our OL was always bad. I've been talking about this year.

So would you agree that he's had plenty of opportunity behind good lines and with a good running game to lean on, but failed to lead the team to at least a single playoff run? Or even show that he's worthy of being a franchise QB?

Because stats the NFL uses are universal and all QBs are subject to the same irregularities. You could make this same argument for any QB.

But even given this, he's still well into the bottom half of the league at #17. Last year he was even worse at #19, in 2007 he was at #20 and his rating was his lowest his rookie year which is expected but he's not ranked with other QBs because he only played 7 games.

Unfortunately over the course of four years, he's only marginally improved in this stat, going from 20th in the league to 17th in the league. Through good lines and bad lines.

JC like any QB does at times check down to backs, but just look at the number catches our backs have compared to some other QBs and you'll see the stats don't back you up on this.

I'd actually like to know this stat but unfortunately it doesn't tell if the backs were behind or beyond the LOS. Lots of RBs go downfield in their systems, that doesn't happen so much in this system.

If you could find some numbers I'd love to see them.

Again your using the loaded question tactic.

I don't agree with your premise.

How is that a loaded question? I think you're confused, just because you don't agree with the facts given, doesn't make what I asked a loaded question.

Are you saying that you think he is allowed to make changes at the LOS? Because it's been documented that he isn't allowed that duty. I will try and find that info for you, I think it came out of the Post.

But i'll say this the WCO isn't heavy in audibles that change the playcalls.

If you don't believe me look it up.

Look at what's going on with Favre in Minn. Favre isn't even allowed to audible very much and he knows the WCO like the back of his hand.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:i5pOXAOEbRYJ:www.footballguys.com/FavrBr00-1.php+Favre+only+audible+15+times&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I don't have a game transcript but on Monday night Jaws said that Favre told him that he's only audibled 15 all season.

Maybe that's true for Favre, but he's essentially a newbie to that system. Not all WCO are created the same. And Favre has led his team to the playoffs in that system too. Things like that wouldn't be an issue if we were winning games under JC.

Aaron Rodgers, Donovan McNabb, Cutler w/ Shanahan, these are all examples of QBs in WCO that make/made changes at the line. Just curious why you don't think Jason is allowed to do so.

[darrelgreenie]

Nope, my original post was a rant about JC. It's the first thing we were talking about before you went off on tangents.

Look dude we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

I also think you mistake your opinion as facts, and you complelety dismiss clearly made points that contradict your opinions like when i pointed out that the WCO isn't an audible heavy system therefore JC lack of audibles isn't unique to him its not a reflection of him as QB i mentioned Favre and the audibles and you called Favre a 'newbie' to that system, which btw is laughable.

Maybe that's true for Favre, but he's essentially a newbie to that system.

I simple cannot continue this argument when you make statements like the above.

Also i can't/won't argue against questions like 'why Jason isn't a leader?' when i don't agree that he isn't a leader.

Like i said before its like me asking you:

why don't you know more about football?

If you can't see the how that is a flawed question i just can't continue this debate.

Imo you're back to this internet argument format which i can't stand.

Cheers! and Happy New Year!

[#98QBKiller]

Look dude we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

I also think you mistake your opinion as facts, and you complelety dismiss clearly made points that contradict your opinions like when i pointed out that the WCO isn't an audible heavy system therefore JC lack of audibles isn't unique to him its not a reflection of him as QB i mentioned Favre and the audibles and you called Favre a 'newbie' to that system, which btw is laughable.

I simple cannot continue this argument when you make statements like the above.

Also i can't/won't argue against questions like 'why Jason isn't a leader?' when i don't agree that he isn't a leader.

Like i said before its like me asking you:

why don't you know more about football?

If you can't see the how that is a flawed question i just can't continue this debate.

Imo you're back to this internet argument format which i can't stand.

Cheers! and Happy New Year!

Wow, okay. Not once in this thread have I asked you simply: "why Jason isn't a leader?" Or any other question in that format.

I've clearly and repeatedly pointed out reasons for all of my stances on JC and I've clearly pointed out how I've made valid points that you refuse to address for some reason or another, and you're back to the same old thing: avoiding the debate by falsely dismissing every point I make as just "opinion."

Again, your entire response has been: "you think JC isnt' a good leader and I do, but I refuse to listen to any points contrary or defend my stance whatsoever."

And you're doing that with each example I've mentioned in this thread, you pick and choose through the parts of my posts that you think you can conveniently answer off the top of your head and are hiding from the rest of it.

If you can't do any better than that after I've asked you and pointed it out repeatedly, then I'm going to assume you've given up and do not wish to debate anything that you think you cannot win off the top of your head.

Good luck in the future and Happy New Years! :refill::party:

[darrelgreenie]

Wow, okay. Not once in this thread have I asked you simply: "why Jason isn't a leader?" Or any other question in that format.

I hate to point it out to you but:

I'd like for you to (calmly) address my points about:

• why JC isn't a leader
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't do any better than that after I've asked you and pointed it out repeatedly, then I'm going to assume you've given up and do not wish to debate anything that you think you cannot win off the top of your head.

I'm not trying to win, but rather trying to have a civil discussion.

Which is difficult to do with you.

Here's an example of why its difficult:

I'd also like to know why you think that after 5 years in the NFL, no coaching staff has trusted him with reading defenses and changing his own plays at the LOS?

I don't agree with your premise.

But i'll say this the WCO isn't heavy in audibles that change the playcalls.

If you don't believe me look it up.

Look at what's going on with Favre in Minn. Favre isn't even allowed to audible very much and he knows the WCO like the back of his hand.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:i5pOXAOEbRYJ:www.footballguys.com/FavrBr00-1.php+Favre+only+audible+15+times&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I don't have a game transcript but on Monday night Jaws said that Favre told him that he's only audibled 15 all season.

Notice that your question is loaded?

I don't think no coaching staff has trusted him YOU think that no coaches have trusted JC and YOU think that's the reason that JC can't audible (which he has,not often but he has).

I mentioned that the WCO isn't a an audible intensive system therefore JC not audibling very often isn't an statement about JC one way or another and i showed you that even Brett Favre who knows the WCO system like the back of his hand doesn't audible often either, as an example to back up my point.

You on the other hand haven't even backed your initial question and responded to my answer with this all over the place answer:

Maybe that's true for Favre, but he's essentially a newbie to that system. Not all WCO are created the same. And Favre has led his team to the playoffs in that system too.

The Vikings run the same WCO that Favre ran in Green Bay, an offense which Favre has said that he could teach.

Then you change the topic completely with this:

Things like that wouldn't be an issue if we were winning games under JC.

Aaron Rodgers, Donovan McNabb, Cutler w/ Shanahan, these are all examples of QBs in WCO that make/made changes at the line. Just curious why you don't think Jason is allowed to do so.

This is completley unrelated to what we were discussing and quite frankly isn't releveant to the question you asked.

And if this is how our discussion is gonna be then you're right i can't continue. But again if you want to continue with one clearly defined statement at a time i would enjoy a discussion.

[HailGreen28]

i was going to ask 'what stats prove he's a mediocre QB?'.

but then i realized 'mediocre' is alot better than horrible, which is what some think about our QB, so thats a step up.

but i will add that if stats show that hes 'mediocre' behind a horrific, patchwork line, no running game, average, at best, WR's, and what appears to be bad coaching, then it appears that he would be better than mediocre with a mediocre line.

seems that way anyway.

And yet the last time we had a team that looked like that and Candle was replaced, we went on to the playoffs!

[Dallsux]

Jason sucks, period.

He does not make those around him better, he does not carry a team and he does not play the game at NFL speed. That adds up (in my book) to he sucks and he has wasted enough other players careers. I really feel really bad for Chris Samuels who may never play again laying his life on the line for someone such as Jason. Waste of a perfectly good career for one of the best Redskins in recent memory.

:doh: Chris Samuels spent the majority of his career blocking for many QBs, not just CAMPBELL (still don't know who this "Candle" guy you people keep mentioning. :whoknows: For real, it's difficult to even consider someone seriously when they can't go without insults as cheap as that one) & in many systems where even he spent years not knowing the system & allowing multiple sacks & causing multiple penalty yards against him BEFORE Campbell.

I think it's sad that so many people claim to know their way around football & can see with their own eyes the debacle this franchise is in & has been in for years, but somehow the QB is the one to blame for all our problems. Somehow, Campbell is the issue. :doh:

There is NOT ONE QB is this League that would succeed behind THIS OL. I'm not talking about bad OL's in general, I'm talking about THIS OL. Probably the WORST OL in the League & undoubtedly the worst this team has ever seen. But somehow, Campbell is supposed to be MORE THAN human, beat the rush (of 3 guys who just walked between 5 OLineman) & thread the needle to get a pass to a triple covered WR (because if the defense is only sending 3 because they know they can get to the QB with that, that means there are 8 in coverage taking away a whole possibility of options that might have been there with an OL that can actually block).

So what that he makes mistakes. Every QB in the League makes mistakes. Tom Brady on his bad days looks terrible. So does every other QB that gets behind a OL that doesn't do a good job for them. In EVERY circumstance, in EVERY game, the commentators make it quite clear that a QB that has time can pick you apart. JC has had time to throw in maybe 3 games all season. We probably lost all those games, thanks to many other facets of the game (like Landry biting on several simple double moves or Suisham missing a 23 yard FG).

I don't know how you guys can expect a QB who never has the opportunity to get set to still perform like a QB who does.

[Mooka]

I don't think no coaching staff has trusted him YOU think that no coaches have trusted JC and YOU think that's the reason that JC can't audible (which he has,not often but he has).

I mentioned that the WCO isn't a an audible intensive system therefore JC not audibling very often isn't an statement about JC one way or another and i showed you that even Brett Favre who knows the WCO system like the back of his hand doesn't audible often either, as an example to back up my point.

Gibbs and Saunders also both limited Jason's ability to audible.

And there always seemed to be some reason why we were so hesitant to run the no huddle, even when the game clock was against us.

[RWJ]

Fran Tarkenton could have played behind our OL and we'd be talking about the playoffs.

[#98QBKiller]

I hate to point it out to you but:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was me asking you for at least the 4th time to kindly respond to the points I made about Campbell not being a franchise QB several pages back.

I'd like for you to (calmly) address my points about:

• why JC isn't a leader
  
• the myth that he's always had a bad offensive line and why some of the same "bad" offensive lines that he's been behind have produced an 1,100+ yard season for Betts, a 1,200+ yard and a 1,400+ yard for Portis, and also has allowed Todd Collins to go on a winning streak that got us to the playoffs
  
• why you think his stats aren't at least a little padded due to garbage time,the nature of the dink/dunk system we run, and his tendency to check down to backs.
  
• I'd also like to know why you think that after 5 years in the NFL, no coaching staff has trusted him with reading defenses and changing his own plays at the LOS?
  

I think you're having trouble with syntax and grammar. Above, I've quoted the post that you're referring to and I'm not JUST saying "Why isn't JC a leader?" I'm asking you to respond to the points I made here as to why I don't think JC is a leader, why I think his stats are padded a little:

You're basing your entire argument off of him being "the 17th ranked QB in the league" What is this based on, his QB rating?

Anyone who's watched the Redskins regularly knows that his stats are inflated because of garbage time and because of his knack for dumping the ball to RBs and because of the dink/dunk game.

So no, he's not an adequate QB. And if we somehow magically got the perfect OL, the perfect receivers, the perfect run game and Shanny becomes our coach and is the perfect playcaller, then JC is nothing more than average.

That's not going to happen and in today's NFL if your QB is just "adequate," then you're not going to be regular SB contender. If the goal is to build a successful franchise, then JC isn't the player to build around.

Don't "huh" me, you know what I mean. He has no command over the offense, and simply isn't a natural leader.

Drew Brees' gets his guys ready to play before every game, his center goes down and he's immediately on the sidelines practicing snaps with the backup center, Big Ben reads defenses late in the 4th and calls the right plays when he needs to, to grab his team a win, Peyton Manning spends hours and hours off the field studying his opponents and preparing for games.

What has Jason done to show you that he's any type of leader? Have his ability to change plays at the line taken away and given to the center because he can't handle it?

And what do you expect his teammates to say? They're not going to call him out to the media, the same way that he's not going to call out the offensive line or the defense when they don't help him out. That's not how it works. There's a way to say things and there's a way not to.

I'm not saying, "Hey JC isn't a leader, why is that?" Without anything to back it up. I've asked you a million times to address the examples I used to back it up and you just keep saying it's a loaded question. If I never made any points/examples to back up my opinion and just simply asked you that question, then that would be a loaded question. However, I'm not. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that I'm asking you to address my examples of the topics listed in bullets above.

I'm not trying to win, but rather trying to have a civil discussion.

Which is difficult to do with you.

Here's an example of why its difficult:

Notice that your question is loaded?

Now you're just talking semantics. That quote is again, part of the bulleted items that I listed above that is clearly asking you to address my points from earlier in the thread, one of which is that I think the coaching staff doesn't trust him to make changes at the LOS.

Why did you not just come out and say: "I think they do trust him/I think they don't trust him/I'm not sure if they trust him/etc." I want to know if you think they trust him or not and to give me some examples of why/why not.

Now I assume (which is dangerous, I know, since everything apparently has to be spelled out in this thread) below, you are saying that you think that the coaches do trust him but the reason he doesn't audible/make changes at the LOS is because of the system, is that correct?

I don't think no coaching staff has trusted him YOU think that no coaches have trusted JC and YOU think that's the reason that JC can't audible (which he has,not often but he has).

I mentioned that the WCO isn't a an audible intensive system therefore JC not audibling very often isn't an statement about JC one way or another and i showed you that even Brett Favre who knows the WCO system like the back of his hand doesn't audible often either, as an example to back up my point.

You on the other hand haven't even backed your initial question and responded to my answer with this all over the place answer:

The Vikings run the same WCO that Favre ran in Green Bay, an offense which Favre has said that he could teach.

Then you change the topic completely with this:

This is completley unrelated to what we were discussing and quite frankly isn't releveant to the question you asked.

So let me get this straight, you are claiming that the WCO isn't an audible-heavy system and are apparently using that as a reason as to why you think JC doesn't audible is that right? (just trying to be especially clear with you here)

If that is correct, then how is it irrelevant to the topic for me to give you a list of QBs that operate in the WCO that call audibles/make changes at the LOS on a regular basis?

And the first sentence that you quoted about Favre winning games was definitely not inserted to change the topic, it's just a comment.

And if this is how our discussion is gonna be then you're right i can't continue. But again if you want to continue with one clearly defined statement at a time i would enjoy a discussion.

I'm trying to break it all down for you since you're apparently having trouble. If you would, answer the questions above about your opinion on the audibles/changes at the LOS, just to be clear and we'll go from there.

[jru37725]

I think its pretty obvious.....99QBK is totally ripping DG to shreds and DG is resorting to personal attacks and not doing a very good job. When your big argument is "JC is the 17th ranked QB in the league"and you are trying to make a point that he should be our QB, i dont know about other people but i dont give much credence to it. Stats are overrated to begin with and JC's stats are horrible anyway. I think the most important stat on JC is 4-11 this yr....about to be 4-12....8-8 last yr....5-7 the yr before.....2-5 the yr before.....he is the losingest QB to start 50 games in Skins history and people still want to give this man a chance because he is a nice man. Invite him over for dinner or something but please do not let him start any more games for my Skins....

Oh yeah...more stats....winless vs the Giants. 1-6 vs Dallas.....come on people.....he is not a winner!!! Its not like in any of those games were we not in and didnt have a shot even with our O-Line and our horrible coach and our pitiful owner.....and he couldnt make a play to win it for us....not one time. And dont even get me started about Todd Collins. A journeyman backup has proven more than 1 time that JC can't play in this league. This should have been known back in 2007 when the offense looked TOTALLY different when Collins came in.....looked like a darn powerhouse. And even the 2 times he came in this yr he made plays......yet we stick with the guy who has one good game vs the Raiders and people are ready to crown him.....but his true colors showed the next 2 weeks didnt they?

JC will always be welcome to my house for dinner....he is a good person and a tough guy. But he will never lead this franchise anywhere but into the ground, as it is right now.

BTW.....99QBK wins the debate by default.....good points 99....oh wait....but he has the 17th best rating in the NFL!!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!

[HailGreen28]

I think its pretty obvious.....99QBK is totally ripping DG to shreds and DG is resorting to personal attacks and not doing a very good job. When your big argument is "JC is the 17th ranked QB in the league"and you are trying to make a point that he should be our QB, i dont know about other people but i dont give much credence to it. Stats are overrated to begin with and JC's stats are horrible anyway. I think the most important stat on JC is 4-11 this yr....about to be 4-12....8-8 last yr....5-7 the yr before.....2-5 the yr before.....he is the losingest QB to start 50 games in Skins history and people still want to give this man a chance because he is a nice man. Invite him over for dinner or something but please do not let him start any more games for my Skins....

Oh yeah...more stats....winless vs the Giants. 1-6 vs Dallas.....come on people.....he is not a winner!!! Its not like in any of those games were we not in and didnt have a shot even with our O-Line and our horrible coach and our pitiful owner.....and he couldnt make a play to win it for us....not one time. And dont even get me started about Todd Collins. A journeyman backup has proven more than 1 time that JC can't play in this league. This should have been known back in 2007 when the offense looked TOTALLY different when Collins came in.....looked like a darn powerhouse. And even the 2 times he came in this yr he made plays......yet we stick with the guy who has one good game vs the Raiders and people are ready to crown him.....but his true colors showed the next 2 weeks didnt they?

JC will always be welcome to my house for dinner....he is a good person and a tough guy. But he will never lead this franchise anywhere but into the ground, as it is right now.

BTW.....99QBK wins the debate by default.....good points 99....oh wait....but he has the 17th best rating in the NFL!!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!

Yeah, for what it's worth, seconded.

But please don't stop posting DG. Enjoyed reading some of your other stuff. And we're all Skins fans to still be posting at this point in the season!