Jason Campbell improving, according to the stats. *UPDATED WITH FINAL STATS*

[skins island connection]

No one speaking 100% honestly and objectively would try to argue that Campbell hasn't improved. I still have questions about his ability to perform in the clutch which, I believe, is a very significant trait for a starting QB.

But, overall, he's certainly trending in the right direction. If he happens to get the opportunities to win us a game and succeeds during the last 3 games, that would go a long way toward convincing me that he's ready to ascend to the next level.

We'll see. At this point, I'm pretty indifferent to the QB decision that will be made this off-season. I have a feeling (knowing that I'm a homer at heart) that I'll find the positive spin to either choice the team makes re: Campbell.

I agree.

IMO, it's a combination of things that are making JC better; playcalling isn't run run pass anymore, better- but- not-great protection, and he is throwing better passes for the most part.

Stats are one thing but wins are another. It would be nice to associate stats with wins on a consistant basis...

[SoCalSkins]

You are using his own worthless play as the baseline to measure improvement against.

If a player ran a 10 second 40 and improved to 8 seconds then 7 seconds in subsequent years, it shows significant improvement. Doesn't mean it is good enough to compete at a competent level in the NFL.

End of the day, wins are what matter most. Can a player lead his team to W's as a qb. His 1st 20 games in the NFL, 7-13. His last 20, 6-14. Same loser.

After that, you can ask several follow ups. Is he a clutch player? Does his team put away opponents when leading in the 4th quarter? Has the player performed better than his team mates playing the same position? With JC, the answer is no to all of these.

He has the worst losing percentage of any Skins QB in history who played in as many or more games. The Redskins are 5-11 over the last 16 and 6-16 over the last 21 games.

Half our wins this year came against teams that are a combined 2-24. Overall combined record of opponents in the wins is 14-38.

And you are actually arguing that there has been improvement?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You are using his own worthless play as the baseline to measure improvement against...

...And you are actually arguing that there has been improvement?

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment (particularly your points about his lack of clutch play and the fact that other QBs have played better with the same players around them). However, you are hung up on wins and I assume you would concede that many things other than your QB can impact your record.

His clutch play is my biggest concern. Until I see him pull out a couple of nail-biters with a key, defining late-game drive...I won't believe he can do it for us.

However, I can understand that he has been far from the main problem this season, so it's tough for me to pin a 4-9 record solely on him.

[TMat184]

I screamed to trade for Jay Cutler. I shouted to trade up and grab Mark Sanchez......With all of that being said, I hope we sign Jason Campbell to an extension. He has been extremely impressive over the last month or so, lets hope he and this team close out these final 3 weeks on a high note!

[wvtbred]

Jason is improving huh? Beside the W-L record lets look at stats that really carry some weight. Some improvement huh?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Year DYAR YAR DVOA (rank)

2007 17 18 22

2008 16 18 18

2009 19 16 21

[TSO]

Jason is improving huh? Beside the W-L record lets look at stats that really carry some weight. Some improvement huh?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Year DYAR YAR DVOA (rank)

2007 17 18 22

2008 16 18 18

2009 19 16 21

So now you're using footballoutsiders.com stats because they work for you, lol? Remember the article posted by Murf you posted like 10,000 times in where the football outsiders guys were defending Campbell? Yeah. :hysterical:

These past few weeks must have been extremely difficult on you. Probably been yelling at the TV every time Campbell makes a nice play while under pressure. Don't lie about it.

[SoCalSkins]

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment (particularly your points about his lack of clutch play and the fact that other QBs have played better with the same players around them). However, you are hung up on wins and I assume you would concede that many things other than your QB can impact your record.

His clutch play is my biggest concern. Until I see him pull out a couple of nail-biters with a key, defining late-game drive...I won't believe he can do it for us.

However, I can understand that he has been far from the main problem this season, so it's tough for me to pin a 4-9 record solely on him.

He has the WORST losing percentage of any Redskins QB in history with as many starts. No one has ever amassed a worse record in over 75 years of football for the Redskins. The fact that he amassed that epic failure of a losing percentage during a span in which the Redskins made the playoffs twice while he was on the team, makes it that much worse.

Beyond that, what are the quality of the wins we do get from him? 0-4 in 2007 against 10 win teams, 0-4 in 2008 against those teams. 0-1 thus far in 2009 (Eagles will likely hit 10, adding 2 more losses. Broncos might get to 10 which will add a game to the W column)

Whether or not losses are on him solely is irrelevant. He is a 5th year QB in a contract year playing the easiest schedule the Redskins have had in years, yet his win/loss percentage is as horrid as it has been.

Fact is replacing him gives the Skins a better chance of winning games because no one has ever been worse. Plus, he prefers playing elsewhere. The Redskins will claim they want him back and will tender him to build up trade value. If there is a new CBA 0% chance he is back.

[hieverybody]

Jason is improving huh? Beside the W-L record lets look at stats that really carry some weight. Some improvement huh?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Year DYAR YAR DVOA (rank)

2007 17 18 22

2008 16 18 18

2009 19 16 21

Football Outsider's stats carry no weight. They were created by a man who had never taken a statistics class in his life.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

He has the WORST losing percentage of any Redskins QB in history with as many starts. No one has ever amassed a worse record in over 75 years of football for the Redskins. The fact that he amassed that epic failure of a losing percentage during a span in which the Redskins made the playoffs twice while he was on the team, makes it that much worse.

Beyond that, what are the quality of the wins we do get from him? 0-4 in 2007 against 10 win teams, 0-4 in 2008 against those teams. 0-1 thus far in 2009 (Eagles will likely hit 10, adding 2 more losses. Broncos might get to 10 which will add a game to the W column)

Whether or not losses are on him solely is irrelevant. He is a 5th year QB in a contract year playing the easiest schedule the Redskins have had in years, yet his win/loss percentage is as horrid as it has been.

Fact is replacing him gives the Skins a better chance of winning games because no one has ever been worse. Plus, he prefers playing elsewhere. The Redskins will claim they want him back and will tender him to build up trade value. If there is a new CBA 0% chance he is back.

We're saying the same thing...I'm not necessarily defending the guy, just stating that he's improved and W/L record is a tough stat to use.

I agree...if there is a new CBA, he's gone. If not though, I think we'll tender him an offer and we have to hope someone decides to give us some compensation for him.

[SoCalSkins]

We're saying the same thing...I'm not necessarily defending the guy, just stating that he's improved and W/L record is a tough stat to use.

I agree...if there is a new CBA, he's gone. If not though, I think we'll tender him an offer and we have to hope someone decides to give us some compensation for him.

We will have to tender him at 120% of this years salary, which puts him at the 1st and 3rd rd tender level. No team will give up a 1st and 3rd for him.

Redskins will have to trade him to make it work. Beyond that, why would he sign a 1 year tender? His agent would be moronic to let him take the deal in an uncapped year.

Without a multi-year deal, this likely goes into training camp. Unless, there is no market for him whatsoever and he will not take the one year deal early on. He'll either show up before the 1st game or into the season prior to losing credit for a year of experience.

His time here is done. Those who don't believe it, don't want to face reality. Regardless, it will become crystal clear in the next few months. Barring injury, his last game ever for the Skins will be in San Diego in 3 weeks.

[wvtbred]

So now you're using footballoutsiders.com stats because they work for you, lol? Remember the article posted by Murf you posted like 10,000 times in where the football outsiders guys were defending Campbell? Yeah. :hysterical:

These past few weeks must have been extremely difficult on you. Probably been yelling at the TV every time Campbell makes a nice play while under pressure. Don't lie about it.

Pretty much the only stats I have used because they take much more into account. That and the won lose record. The others are thrown around by your side so much it's like trash along the highway.

BTW you can ass-u-me all you want doesn't bother me one bit. As for my thoughts of Jason my boycott is still in force if you have to know.

HTTR

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We will have to tender him at 120% of this years salary, which puts him at the 1st and 3rd rd tender level. No team will give up a 1st and 3rd for him.

Redskins will have to trade him to make it work. Beyond that, why would he sign a 1 year tender? His agent would be moronic to let him take the deal in an uncapped year.

Without a multi-year deal, this likely goes into training camp. Unless, there is no market for him whatsoever and he will not take the one year deal early on. He'll either show up before the 1st game or into the season prior to losing credit for a year of experience.

His time here is done. Those who don't believe it, don't want to face reality. Regardless, it will become crystal clear in the next few months. Barring injury, his last game ever for the Skins will be in San Diego in 3 weeks.

Oh, I didn't realize he could turn it down. I thought he was limited...my mistake.

I agree that no one would part with a 1/3, but aren't we open to accept lesser compensation even if we tender him at a 1/3?

[SoCalSkins]

Oh, I didn't realize he could turn it down. I thought he was limited...my mistake.

I agree that no one would part with a 1/3, but aren't we open to accept lesser compensation even if we tender him at a 1/3?

Absolutely we can trade him for less. However, to maximize leverage, you want others to think that you intend to keep him. Otherwise, they will not be willing to part with anything of significance.

The tender is a take it or leave it if that is the team's stance, but he doesn't have to take it up front. He can drag it out. With a new coach, he'll want his QB in mini camps, OTAs and training camp. JC and his agent want a multi year deal. Very little chance he takes the 1 year offer, unless no one out there wants to offer better.

Hopefully Al Davis liked what he saw on Sunday. That might be the one guy willing to trade a lot for him.

[jgbkabkab]

Now if you could break it down just a little further and see what it was for the first 3 Qtrs. Plenty of times(4th Qtr.) he was acquiring Garbage yards when teams played prevent and just gave it up late in the game knowing the win was in the bag...

In 2006, JC had 840 yards in the 1st 3 quarters and 457 yards in the 4th quarters and overtime. In 2007, JC had 2,050 yards in the 1st 3 quarters and 650 yards in the 4th quarters and overtime. In 2008, JC had 2,347 in the first 3 quarters and 898 yards in the 4th quarters. In 2009, JC has 2,244 yards in the 1st 3 quarters and 702 yards in the 4th quarters and overtime.

In 2006, when we were behind JC had 659 yards, when we were behind 1 - 8 points JC had 402 yards, when we were behind 9 - 16 points JC had 192 yards. In 2007, when we were behind JC had 1,220 yards, when we were behind 1 - 8 points JC had 321 yards and when we were behind 9 - 16 points JC had 740 yards. In 2008, when we were behind JC had 1,821, when we were behind 1 - 8 points JC had 762 yards and when we were behind 9 - 16 points JC had 908 yards. In 2009, when we were behind JC had 1,685 yards, when we were behind 1 - 8 points JC had 878 yards and when we were behind 9 - 16 points JC had 436 yards.

I guess you can decide what you consider garbage time and come to your own conclusions.

[Springfield]

In 2009, when we were behind JC had 1,685 yards, when we were behind 1 - 8 points JC had 878 yards and when we were behind 9 - 16 points JC had 436 yards.

I guess you can decide what you consider garbage time and come to your own conclusions.

Being behind 1-8 points isn't really garbage time. Granted we haven't been that far behind in many games this season but these numbers show me that Jason Campbell can get us right back into games if we are behind.

[jgbkabkab]

Being behind 1-8 points isn't really garbage time. Granted we haven't been that far behind in many games this season but these numbers show me that Jason Campbell can get us right back into games if we are behind.

Well, it really depends on if you consider garbage time 1, 2 or 3+ scores down. For 3+ I guess you would subtract the sum of 1 or 2 scores from the total if that's what you consider garbage. You just can never tell with some people on this board.

[MrJL]

Absolutely we can trade him for less. However, to maximize leverage, you want others to think that you intend to keep him. Otherwise, they will not be willing to part with anything of significance.

The tender is a take it or leave it if that is the team's stance, but he doesn't have to take it up front. He can drag it out. With a new coach, he'll want his QB in mini camps, OTAs and training camp. JC and his agent want a multi year deal. Very little chance he takes the 1 year offer, unless no one out there wants to offer better.

Hopefully Al Davis liked what he saw on Sunday. That might be the one guy willing to trade a lot for him.

minicamps don't start till after the draft. The period a RFA can test the market ends slightly before the draft, since picks are the compensation.

[MrJL]

Well, it really depends on if you consider garbage time 1, 2 or 3+ scores down. For 3+ I guess you would subtract the sum of 1 or 2 scores from the total if that's what you consider garbage. You just can never tell with some people on this board.

people on this board define things like garbage time and clutch in whatever way makes our players look bad.

[seanyt]

people on this board define things like garbage time and clutch in whatever way makes our players look bad.

Yeah I guess I see garbage yards as weve already lost the game, the opposing D goes into prevent and gives up everything short and the Qb's passing yard and completion percentage goes up, But then again I define Garbage when were down and our Qb TRYS to run the 2 min. drill and throws an INT.

[SoCalSkins]

minicamps don't start till after the draft. The period a RFA can test the market ends slightly before the draft, since picks are the compensation.

Not true. That is only for signing with another team at the tender compensation if the Redskins don't match. In this case a 1st and 3rd, which no team will part with.

JC does not have to sign the tender. The Redskins will be required to offer him a contract 120% of his 2009 base salary in June. He doesn't have to accept it. He can hold out through camp waiting for a multi-year deal or trade.

[MustangSteve]

Jason just got his 4th win of the season, how hard is it to improve from 3-9. Sure he's played much better, but I'm sure not putting him in the same category as the elite QB's. As I stated before, let's see how he does against NY and Dallas the next 2 weeks.

[RocketCitySkins]

Yeah I guess I see garbage yards as weve already lost the game, the opposing D goes into prevent and gives up everything short and the Qb's passing yard and completion percentage goes up, But then again I define Garbage when were down and our Qb TRYS to run the 2 min. drill and throws an INT.

JC is leading the league in 2nd quarter passing percentage with a completion rate of 70.8. But his 4th quarter percentage is 3rd with 69.4. I doubt any team goes into prevent in the 3rd quarter. In fact, there have been several games lately when we were leading in the 3rd quarter, not behind. If the stats backed up what you are saying, JC's completion percentage would be higher in the 4th quarter, not lower even by a small amount.

[Riggodrill44]

You are using his own worthless play as the baseline to measure improvement against.

If a player ran a 10 second 40 and improved to 8 seconds then 7 seconds in subsequent years, it shows significant improvement. Doesn't mean it is good enough to compete at a competent level in the NFL.

End of the day, wins are what matter most. Can a player lead his team to W's as a qb. His 1st 20 games in the NFL, 7-13. His last 20, 6-14. Same loser.

After that, you can ask several follow ups. Is he a clutch player? Does his team put away opponents when leading in the 4th quarter? Has the player performed better than his team mates playing the same position? With JC, the answer is no to all of these.

He has the worst losing percentage of any Skins QB in history who played in as many or more games. The Redskins are 5-11 over the last 16 and 6-16 over the last 21 games.

Half our wins this year came against teams that are a combined 2-24. Overall combined record of opponents in the wins is 14-38.

And you are actually arguing that there has been improvement?

Everyday we have to see this dribble that you offer as anylasis. You keep going on and on about JC's record as the starter of the Redskins.Do you think JC plays defense,RB,Safety,CB,Kicker,Punter,WR,OL......are you getting this?

This is a team,thier record reflex the WHOLE team play.Granted JC has struggled but you could say that about every part of this team.Until you understand a little football you should kindly STFU!

[tr1]

And you are actually arguing that there has been improvement?

The boyz don't like stats that refute their premise.

:rotflmao:

[tr1]

Everyday we have to see this dribble that you offer as anylasis. You keep going on and on about JC's record as the starter of the Redskins.Do you think JC plays defense,RB,Safety,CB,Kicker,Punter,WR,OL......are you getting this?

This is a team,thier record reflex the WHOLE team play.Granted JC has struggled but you could say that about every part of this team.Until you understand a little football you should kindly STFU!

:applause: