HailToTheRedskins14 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And they understood that talent and injuries were a big issue last year with that team. Talent and injuries have been a problem for us, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saqs Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Talent and injuries have been a problem for us, too. Boingo was his nameo and his point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And they understood that talent and injuries were a big issue last year with that team. How do you explain last years collapse then? I don't think we were decimated with injuries like this season. I think the difference has been night and day with regard to the offense with Zorn no longer at the helm. I think Sherm is also giving guys like Thomas, Davis and Kelly a chance to see what they can do and thus far they're providing some hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWCREDSKINS Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 No way I keep Zorn. Between the club med training camp and the cluelessness in the clutch moments of the game, this guy needs to go. I admit I like how they are playing but don't make the same mistake you made with Norv Turner in 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goskinz0721 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I guess so much for stability.Let's bring in a guy who won with another team somewhere and let him stay for 2 years before he leaves or is chased out. Then we can get another stopgap coach for 2 years. Maybe we can even completely change systems this offseason. That'd be great. And if that doesn't work out in 2 years, we'll just change systems again. +1 This carousel of coach changes isn't working. I really don't entirely blame Zorn for this year or the 2-6 finish last year. Nor do I blame JC. There has to be a team philosophy on offense. And the team should be built around that philosophy. JZ inherited the grind-it-out game of JG with Portis & the smurf receivers. It was only mildly successful. The passing game stunk. Now I'm not defending JZ's offensive brainpower, but this was a glaring problem the last 8-9 games of 2008. The FO should have done something in the offseason to correct this. Sherman Smith, as well as JZ, should have been on the hotseat. And the FO should have made a move to add to the staff at that time. Then the OTA's and preseason could have been used to improve. Instead it was more of the same. Now with Sherm Lewis, we're seeing new plays we've never seen. And they're making damn good use of all the players on the roster. Sure, DT, MK & Davis have all improved. But maybe if they had been given more time late last year (and more in OTA's and preseason) they could have been used at the beginning of this year. The OL, for now, is stable and shows much improvement. Even better than with Samuels and Thomas. We can debate the competition, but for now these guys are playing pretty well. And have been for the past 3 weeks. Maybe it's Sherm Lewis calling plays these guys excel at. I don't know. But I do know the offense is much improved. In the end, this organization needs an offensive philosphy it can build around to get the right players in the right positions. I'm convinced the WR/TE positions are set for a while. The RB's? Who knows? But it appears RB by committee is working. And when you look around the league, except for a few teams, that seems to be the answer. It's the OL that has been the failure. The FO (WITHOUT Cerrato) needs to find the players to fit the plays they want to run. We've seen the consistency on defense with GW, Blache & Jerry Gray for a number of years. And it has been pretty successful. A couple of more pieces of the puzzle to fill (LB probably the biggest and a true FS) and we might see something really special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Hey. When a coach leads you to 5-15 stretch' date=' you have to stick with the guy.[/quote']One would hope that the analysis upon which the decision is based would penetrate deeper than the won-lost record over a given stretch of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcarey032 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think keeping Zorn is worth considering. But I think the one who should be doing the considering is our brand new uninfluenced general manager. Vinny is like the last 10 Lbs you have been dying to drop for a decade and you now matter how hard you work out or diet, you just can't get rid of them. Vinny is that way and he should be gone, but somehow and some way he is going to be here next year. That is my gut feeling on this. There is no way that he won't be here because the owner can continue his meddling ways. Whether or not we can get a coach who is a name brand to sign off on that will be another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Going through these posts I don't see a lot of specifics mentioned in the pro-Zorn ones. Oldfan usually does a good job bucking him up but its rare for me to stumble on anyone else giving a good explantion for why he is a good coach. The general pro Zorn sentiment seems to be the offense is playing better and lets try continuity and be patient. Anything specific that you guys like about him as a coach as opposed to a general vibe that things are looking better albeit not great? Everyone's opinion is valid, pro Zorn or anti, I have listed why I like his personality but I don't care for him as a head coach. But am curious if for example Danny is deciding between Shanny and Zorn -- what is it that makes Zorn the better choice? He just seems to have a better feel than Shanny for offenses is it something else? And I am not advocating for Shanny, just saying Danny will be making apples to apples comparisons and am curious what makes Zorn stand out among the pack? By most indications Zorn is a goner, at least if Vinny has something to say about it if you buy into Morteson's latest media report. So this is likely a moot debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SittingBull Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I'm all for continuity and I hate the coaching carousel that we've had the past decade but the problem is the guys picking the coach which ends up in disaster and having to pick a new one. We need someone qualified to pick a coach. I'd love to stick with the same coach for 10 years, I don't see that happening with Zorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGREENHULK Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Zorn can stay in my mind, as long as Sherm Lewis does as well. Zorn is one of the worst playcallers I have ever seen. Agreed I think the fan base would more upset if Zorn was fired and Vinny got to stay rather than Vinny getting Fired and Zorn staying on...I like the chemistry our offense is finding with Sherm calling the plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saqs Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Going through these posts I don't see a lot of specifics mentioned in the pro-Zorn ones. Oldfan usually does a good job bucking him up but its rare for me to stumble on anyone else giving a good explantion for why he is a good coach. The general pro Zorn sentiment seems to be the offense is playing better and lets try continuity and be patient. Anything specific that you guys like about him as a coach as opposed to a general vibe that things are looking better albeit not great? Everyone's opinion is valid, pro Zorn or anti, I have listed why I like his personality but I don't care for him as a head coach. But am curious if for example Danny is deciding between Shanny and Zorn -- what is it that makes Zorn the better choice? He just seems to have a better feel than Shanny for offenses is it something else? And I am not advocating for Shanny, just saying Danny will be making apples to apples comparisons and am curious what makes Zorn stand out among the pack? I like Zorn because he comes across to me as someone who knows and loves football, is intelligent, and is just as competitive as any other HC out there. The players seem to respect him and play hard for him as well. The mistakes he's made such as clock mismanagement and accusations of poor playcalling, right or wrong, come with the territory IMO. Especially for someone with too much on their plate which IS and was a valid complaint before Lewis came in. Every coach in the league has dealt with these issues (clock management/playcalling). The "clueless" tag just doesnt fit at all to me and is something frustrated fans just seem to throwout ad nauseam. You can look up messageboards of pretty much any team after a loss and see the very same labels being thrown around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Agreed I think the fan base would more upset if Zorn was fired and Vinny got to stay rather than Vinny getting Fired and Zorn staying on...I like the chemistry our offense is finding with Sherm calling the plays. I'd like to consider maybe these first two years Zorn was a cordinator... now he's got someone else handling the duties, so he can be full-time head coach... I'd be more happy with Zorn returning and Vinny being fired rather than vice-versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Personally I would like for Zorn to get another season before the final judgement is made on him. Forget about the injuries. The players we are playing with NOW seem to be performing better then the ones we had before injuries(well besides Cooley and Hall and Haynesworth), however what you have to remember is a lot of these guys that are playing their hearts out now were signed off waiver wires or cut/signed/cut/signed etc etc they haven't had a full training camp and/or year of practice to get this offense down, yet they seem to be performing on the field. I think what we SHOULD do this offseason is keep the coaching staff in tact, but the coaches should sit down and watch game tape until their eyes bleed, and figure out what PLAYERS actually deserve a roster spot and which ones are just collecting a fat paycheck to perform merely average. There is no way you can tell me the offensive line is performing worse NOW then it was to open the season and we have arguably two of the better lineman on IR. That tells me that we have replaced them with younger, hungrier players that are selling out on every play. Not to mention the fact that after Samuels injury we don't really know yet if he is ever coming back or if he can be the same player. There is a reason this offense looks better now then it did has in a season and a half, and it is because offenses don't just suddenly get great overnight, especially in a WCO system. The playcalling probably has something to do with it to, but the playcalling is still being called within the system that Zorn designed and made the team learn. Finally, I personally feel like Zorn will be fired even though I don't agree with it, so with that being said I really hope whoever is brought in, will bring a very similar style of offense and not just blow up everything this team has been learning, improving on, and showing signs of breaking out with. Shanahan, Dennis Green, Holgrem are all possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The team has lost 15 out of the last 20 with him. OK, now that he has been removed as the play caller, the team has started to score, and looks very Norv Turnish with playing teams close and choking at the end. Zorn seems like a nice guy, very classy. But if he's not good at calling plays, clock managment, timeouts -- by his own admission he doesn't believe in pep talks and believes players need to be their own self motivators so he doesn't appear to be a Ditka motivator type, or an erudite play caller like Bill Walsh was, or shrewed with the play clock like lets say a Belichick usually is -- what's left? A nice guy who players like and perhaps don't like to let down, not enough to win but put up a good fight and he is a good QB coach. We also know he doesn't run a rigiourous training camp according to Peter King who watched theirs and others this summer, many of the Redskins players concurred that it was a light camp and both Jaws and Gannon critqued how they practice during the season. To each their own, but as much as I respect Zorn personally and hate how Cerrato has treated him. I almost cringe watching him on the sidelines, sometimes thinking geez he's our coach. And my vibe about him is similar to what Thom Loverro said from the WT, players like him, and like the fact that he isn't like a Parcells and doesn't give them hard practices or harsh words to keep them in line. Kinda of like summer camp with a cool counselor. Someone you want to hang out with but does he really bring the best out of you? This pretty much sums it up. He was reallly never qualified in the first place. Bottom line, as much as we rooted for him, we can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goskinz0721 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I'd like to consider maybe these first two years Zorn was a cordinator... now he's got someone else handling the duties, so he can be full-time head coach...I'd be more happy with Zorn returning and Vinny being fired rather than vice-versa. Absolutely. Listen, the Philthy fans have been ragging on Reid forever about his offensive play calling (not running enough) AND his time mgmt skills (or lack thereof) for YEARS. As someone else has posted, there's plenty of examples around the league where coaches have made mistakes in time mgmt. Hell, even JG made the laughable mistake at the end of the Bills game and called 2 TO's in a row because he didn't know the rules. JZ has been at this for less than 2 years. He's still learning how to be a head coach. He has the players still out there playing, giving their all, in the midst of this horrible year. I haven't seen them quit. That (quitting) has been a staple of this team for a lot of years. And that comes from getting the right damn people on the team. And that's Cerrato's job. VC is the one that needs to go. He's had his chances and he's failed. I'm all for giving JZ & JC another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Talent and injuries have been a problem for us, too. Kinda the point I was getting at, yes. How do you explain last years collapse then? I don't think we were decimated with injuries like this season. I think the difference has been night and day with regard to the offense with Zorn no longer at the helm. I think Sherm is also giving guys like Thomas, Davis and Kelly a chance to see what they can do and thus far they're providing some hope. Injuries were indeed a factor, but not nearly as obvious as it was this year. Injuries to Portis, Betts (since Betts never seemed to get back into the groove) and to the OL were pretty big factors to our offensive collapse last year. While some might say that the OL wasn't affected until the Baltimore game, there were guys on the line missing time as far back as the Pittsburgh game. It was pretty obvious that the OL was wearing down as the season went on. OL was still a problem going into this season, since not enough was done in the offseason to address it. That being said, there are much fresher legs in there right now. Also a big difference is the development of Thomas and Davis. It has taken this long for Thomas to become a factor, and we've long needed a #2 who could take the pressure off of Moss. Thomas doesn't just get his opportunities just because of playcalling, but because he's able to figure out ways to get open. That has more to do with his development as a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitStickTaylor21 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I honestly would give Zorn another shot if we made Holmgren the GM and gave Holmgren all the executive football power, a la Parcells/Sparano in Miami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operations Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Damn, why are people going wobbly all of a sudden? Zorn and Candle BETTER be gone as soon as this season ends! I can't imagine they won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Few Wrs are good in their first season. Moss was and is the exception, not the rule. It taking 2 years for the WRs to come around shouldn't shock anyone. We said two years to go from smash to west coast offense...and lo and behold here we are towards the end of year two and we seem to be getting it. This is Zorn's offense whether he calls the plays or not. Has everyone missed the "Sherm doesn't talk to the players especially JC" threads? From whose playbook do you think Sherm is calling plays? I think Zorn deserves to stay because the realistic fans 2 years ago said it would take 2 years to switch scemes and personel. To make matter worse, Zorn was given a team with sub par first stringers for his scemes, and then he had to replace them with second or third or fourth choices at key positions. This season has had many a moment for the players to "just play out the string." Can anyone watching these last 4 games, when we were all but eliminated, honestly claim we aren't playing with heart. I think those who say motivation isn't a key way to measure the impact of a head coach should go get a seat next to Jeff "Leadership is overrated" George to watch some more football. Chemistry is one of those things that is hard to come by but easy to destroy. Why are so many fans willing to throw it away with JC, Zorn, the youngens at receiver, etc? Unless you can show me a better option, I'm all for sticking with the current crop for another year. How did the Cowboys react going 1-15? They stuck with it. When was the last time we stuck with a system long enough to see if it can work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinpride1 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think people are forgetting that we've been so much better with Portis on the bench.He's a prima donna and I think he had a very big part of the gameplan, whether directly or indirectly. I think Zorn was strongly encouraged to get Portis as much carries as possible, and that just flattened our whole offense. With him out, we've been miles better and we've actually seen fire from the team. Keep Zorn, hell keep Vinny, but get rid of some of the egos in the locker room. You know that thought has crossed my mind our offense is better now and Portis does have a history of talking to the play caller wanting the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Damn, why are people going wobbly all of a sudden? ...Zorn and Candle BETTER be gone as soon as this season ends! I can't imagine they won't be. Nobody's going wobbly all of a sudden. The people you're hearing from in this thread seem to be those who don't jump to conclusions and start screaming for change with little evidence to support their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 since sherm has come onboard, the offense has improved and the most impressive thing about this team is they have never thrown in the towel... zorn perhaps was in way over his head calling the offense, but it appears the guys play hard under his lead... with a focus on shoring up our oline, I wouldn't be opposed to a 3rd year... I just want to see some f'ing continuity from this team and if we continue to show improvement, I'd hate to start from scratch again... also there just aren't any coaching prospects I feel if we don't get now, we'll regret later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastha40 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I dont see how you keep Zorn after this season; particuarly with losses to pathetic teams like Detriot and Kansas City. The guy is 5-15 in the last 20 games. How does that record earn another year? Yea the team is playing better in the last several weeks but we are still losing and blowing leads in the 4th qtr. He also lies his ass off. I heard him defending Landrys play during the press conference Monday. Landry has the probably the worst game in his career as far as being out of position and hes defending him like he has no peer when it comes to the FS position. No wonder hes always strutting around the field like an idiot; noone is telling him hes fvkcing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoRUSupposed2Be Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Distinguish the word "talent" from "mental collapse" and you will clearly see this team has had lots of them. Talent is being thrown around here too loosely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 ^^ No circumventing the profanity filter lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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