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WEx: Rick Snider: Another shot for Zorn?

JimmiJo

By JimmiJo
in The Stadium

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SkinsHokieFan

SkinsHokieFan

Posted
Posted
For those saying he just doesn't win so we need to move on, I guess you would have pulled the plug on these guys too:

Jeff Fisher: 32-38 first 5 seasons (no winning records, and went 9-23 in 2004-2005)

Bill Parcells: 12-19 for first 2 seasons

Jimmy Johnson: 8-24 first 2 seasons

Tony Dungy: 24-24 first 3 seasons

Andy Reid: 16-16 first 2 seasons

Jon Gruden: 16-16 first 2 seasons

Dick Vermeil: 18-26 first 3 seasons

Bill Walsh: 8-24 first 2 seasons

.

Please compare year 1 records and year 2 records

How many started off 6-2 and were 3-9 in their 2nd season?

Some of your examples off t he top of my head

Jimmy Johnson: Went from 1-15 to 7-9

Andy Reid: Went from 5-11 and 11-5 and a playoff berth

Bill Walsh: 2-14 to 6-10

Bill Parcells: 3-13 to 9-7

The point is, the teams were getting better and gelling. There actually was progress

There has been no progress the last 2 years

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luke1867

luke1867

Posted
Posted

Zorn cannot stay here under any circumstances. His influences on the play calling in the red zone are still apparent and maddening as hell. The worst part about it is, he doesn't see anything wrong with him and his play calling. In the interview yesterday on the kicker situation, he said the snap that resulted to the miss FG was decent and that the call to to settle for the FG was "an excellent call", almost as if he was trying to get flying marks for that. I just cring at that man's decisions. I feel he chooses the wrong time to get into Jason Campbell's rythm. It always happens at the end zone. Each time Campbell drives all the way to end zone, you see Zorn getting into his face with the plays that he "Zorn" wants JC to run and often times the plays result in a fail situation. I hate it! No, Zorn must go!

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Dick Edds

Dick Edds

Posted
Posted
If you asked me this question a month ago I would have said that Zorn, Campbell, Vinnie....Everyone needs to go. But over the last few games It looks like Zorn and Campbell deserve another shot....the fundemental reason behind why the skins are doing so poorly is now becoming quite apparent- The just don't have as talented personnel as they thought, and their superstars simply aren't. All of this falls on Vinny.

So my feeling as of now is that Vinny needs to go but Zorn and Campbell should get another chance.

I totally agree with this ... had we continued to sputter and only score 10-17 points a game and were getting demolished, I was ready to give everyone the axe. But considering how the team is playing, and the fact that it now seems to be the offense that is scoring enough to win, but the defense who is giving up big plays. I think we have already invested enough time in Zorn and these players to give them these last 4 games to prove we can become a good team and build some momentum for the off season and next year.

It really comes down to how we play these next 4 games ... AND we need to WIN them. If we can beat OAK, Dallas, the GMen and SD ... and finish on a strong note, then I'd prefer to let Zorn finish his contract. We all talked about giving the man enough time and continuity. It would be a shame to cut him loose just as things seem to be improving. We've waited 17 years, I can wait one more to truly know if this thing can work, before completely scrapping everything and rebuilding.

if we continue to sputter and have mismanagement of games in the 4th quarter, then yes i can see why we would try to go in a new direction. But the thought of making these young (and old) WR's and OL'man and RB's learn ANOTHER offensive system would be 10 times more frustrating.

We still need to draft a QB, and at least 2-3 OL'man in the draft. Depending on how things work out ... maybe extend JC to a modest 2-3 year contract to see if he can continue to improve. Bring in another veteran like Matt Hasselback (Jeff Garcia or someone versed in the WCO) and draft a QB, and let Colt Brennan all compete for the job.

I don't really care if Vinny stays as long as Zorn gets to stay. In fact I'd prefer we keep Zorn and get a GM with experience building a roster suitable for the WCO. We're in good shape on defense, just need to get Horton back healthy and another LB'er or 2.

I haven't lost sight of just how bad things have gotten this year, but Zorn has kept the team together. He is still the HC, regardless of what his specific duties are on Sundays and during the work week. Everyone can say he's useless ... but personally, I think the players admire his courage and refusal to quit and that is rubbing off on them. He is becoming a leader, maybe just not in the same way some of us expected.

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Dick Edds

Dick Edds

Posted
Posted
I totally agree with this ... had we continued to sputter and only score 10-17 points a game and were getting demolished, I was ready to give everyone the axe. But considering how the team is playing, and the fact that it now seems to be the offense that is scoring enough to win, but the defense who is giving up big plays. I think we have already invested enough time in Zorn and these players to give them these last 4 games to prove we can become a good team and build some momentum for the off season and next year.

It really comes down to how we play these next 4 games ... AND we need to WIN them. If we can beat OAK, Dallas, the GMen and SD ... and finish on a strong note, then I'd prefer to let Zorn finish his contract. We all talked about giving the man enough time and continuity. It would be a shame to cut him loose just as things seem to be improving. We've waited 17 years, I can wait one more to truly know if this thing can work, before completely scrapping everything and rebuilding.

if we continue to sputter and have mismanagement of games in the 4th quarter, then yes i can see why we would try to go in a new direction. But the thought of making these young (and old) WR's and OL'man and RB's and whoever the QB is gonna be ... learn ANOTHER offensive system would be 10 times more frustrating.

We still need to draft a QB, and at least 2-3 OL'man in the draft. Depending on how things work out ... maybe extend JC to a modest 2-3 year contract to see if he can continue to improve. Bring in another veteran like Matt Hasselback (Jeff Garcia or someone versed in the WCO) and draft a QB, and let Colt Brennan all compete for the job.

I don't really care if Vinny stays as long as Zorn gets to stay. In fact I'd prefer we keep Zorn and get a GM with experience building a roster suitable for the WCO. We're in good shape on defense, just need to get Horton back healthy and another LB'er or 2.

I haven't lost sight of just how bad things have gotten this year, but Zorn has kept the team together. He is still the HC, regardless of what his specific duties are on Sundays and during the work week. Everyone can say he's useless ... but personally, I think the players admire his courage and refusal to quit and that is rubbing off on them. He is becoming a leader, maybe just not in the same way some of us expected.

Edit: sorry for the double post

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
THIS! I'll be fine if we keep Zorn, Campbell, draft defense with our first pick....whatever as long as it comes from our brand new GM!

+1 million...

That is what I have been asking for. And that will be the only promising sign of change, if whatever moves are made in the future, they come from the mouth of our kick a** new GM who is string free.

:dallasuck

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cahones01

cahones01

Posted
Posted
Please compare year 1 records and year 2 records

How many started off 6-2 and were 3-9 in their 2nd season?

Some of your examples off t he top of my head

Jimmy Johnson: Went from 1-15 to 7-9

Andy Reid: Went from 5-11 and 11-5 and a playoff berth

Bill Walsh: 2-14 to 6-10

Bill Parcells: 3-13 to 9-7

The point is, the teams were getting better and gelling. There actually was progress

There has been no progress the last 2 years

Are you honestly saying you have seen no improvement from our horrible performances against no win teams to the product we've seen on the field in the last few weeks? Not to mention those teams you pointed out weren't completely ravaged by injuries during the second season. The demise of last years season started with the injuries to the offensive line and the drop off in production from Portis, which led to the dropoff from Campbell. This season it has been even worse. 9 players on IR, including first and second string lineman, and our first and second string RB's, our clutch receiver Cooley, and a young defense prospect in Horton. The fact that we looked as good as we did against the Eagles and Saints shows me progress. If we keep performing on that level and pull out a few wins on the home stretch, I'd have no problems with our GM thinking about keeping Zorn.

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Bat~man

Bat~man

Posted
Posted

I'm with the people who say let the new GM make the decision.

Honestly tho, if we get a new GM and he decides to keep JC for another year or so, then I would prolly lean towards keeping Zorn for another year or so as well.

Main thing I want is a new GM, a real one. Whatever this franchise needs, as long as it is being directed by football people, I'll be optimistic about.

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SkinsHokieFan

SkinsHokieFan

Posted
Posted
Are you honestly saying you have seen no improvement from our horrible performances against no win teams to the product we've seen on the field in the last few weeks? .

In the NFL its this simple

You are what your record says you are. Nothing more, nothing less

A year ago, this team was 7-5 and in the playoff hunt

A year and 4 weeks ago, this team was 6-2 and looking at potentially winning a division title

Today, this franchise is in ruins at 3-9

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SkinsHokieFan

SkinsHokieFan

Posted
Posted
As for progress, do you reject the argument that injuries to Thomas and Samuels, and having to play backups on the O-line, would pose a major hindrance for Zorn?

I do not. However I am not one who has patience with the injuries excuse.

Were we actually on a 4 game win streak (wins over Denver, Dallas, Philly and NO) I'd see that progress was being made.

However the record is 3-9. The team isn't winning games. Simply keeping things close when the pressure is off the team is not a sign of progress to me.

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That Redskins Fan

That Redskins Fan

Posted
Posted
In the NFL its this simple

You are what your record says you are. Nothing more, nothing less

A year ago, this team was 7-5 and in the playoff hunt

A year and 4 weeks ago, this team was 6-2 and looking at potentially winning a division title

Today, this franchise is in ruins at 3-9

right on all three accounts... edit four accounts

thank you and thank you again

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Passizle

Passizle

Posted
Posted

I dont mind giving JZ another shot. I think that any couach that can keep this locker room together and fighting EVERY week gets the nod.

DS and VC had to know it was risky hiring a new HC with no experience. If anything, I could call is trial by fire mildly successful... given the circumstances.

Keep JZ, keep SL, bolster the O-line, draft a QB in the second, keep JC for a 2 year incentive laden deal... I think if the Skin stay the course they can have some success in the coming years. Nothing good will happen from blowing up the team for the sixth time in ten years.

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Oldfan

Oldfan

Posted
Posted
In the NFL its this simple

You are what your record says you are. Nothing more, nothing less

A year ago, this team was 7-5 and in the playoff hunt

A year and 4 weeks ago, this team was 6-2 and looking at potentially winning a division title

Today, this franchise is in ruins at 3-9

That's a simplistic analysis. A coach should be judged on how well he plays the hand dealt. The O-line problems, coupled with the QB problem, veteran receivers misfit for the scheme -- Zorn was not dealt a good hand.

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SkinsHokieFan

SkinsHokieFan

Posted
Posted
That's a simplistic analysis. A coach should be judged on how well he plays the hand dealt. The O-line problems, coupled with the QB problem, was not a good hand for Jim Zorn.

I agree. The talent on this team is terrible. There are some signs of life here and there, but simply stating "hey we are now losing to good teams by only 3-5 points" isn't good enough progress to warrant keeping a coach who is in over his head around.

If this team was on an actual upward trend, I would agree more so with you. The fact is, at 3-9, it is not

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TheLongshot

TheLongshot

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Posted
That's a simplistic analysis. A coach should be judged on how well he plays the hand dealt. The O-line problems, coupled with the QB problem, veteran receivers misfit for the scheme -- Zorn was not dealt a good hand.

This is true. This team could have just spent the rest of the year tanking, with nine players on IR and many more getting hurt for various periods of time. Yet, this team has a lot of fight in them and remains competitive with the better teams in the league. I don't know how you'd make the decision to go with someone else unless there is a dealbreaker with Zorn.

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