The Only Thing Dumber Than the Redskins FO? The "Fan Revolt" Reaction...

[illone]

Thanks, but I think you missed my point. Snyder IS the problem-- I just don't think the revolts will do much to solve it.

I think you are wrong here.

If the stadium was half-filled on Sundays, his business would take a huge hit and he would be forced to take a look at some things.

Profit sharing is not enough to keep the Skins afloat and like you said it's a private enterprise so there are things like beer and parking that are not shared with other teams and this is where Snyder would hurt the most because that is where the biggest profit margins are. The markup on beer and concessions alone would put a dent in Snyder's plans, not to mention the advertising he would likely lose if fans stopped going to the games.

I certainly don't know if it would work, but I know I'm not buying a Haynesworth jersey anytime soon.

:2cents:

[Taylor4Life]

And please don't insinuate that I lead my life in the same manner that I view this situation.

The Redskins are a private organization. It's not government policy or something that is going to affect my children's education. Ultimately, the Redskins are owned by Snyder and it is his fundamental right to do what he wants. It is my fundamental right as a consumer to choose not to invest time, money, or emotion into his company.

LOL. The idea of equating any of this to political activism, or any other actual real-life situation, is beyond silly.

Me, I'll just sit back and enjoy the games the best I can, and just wait for Dan Snyder to find his Phil Jackson or Mike Scoscia. Then everyone will claim that Dan has "finally turned the corner."

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks, but I think you missed my point. Snyder IS the problem-- I just don't think the revolts will do much to solve it.

Get enough people pissed off and willing to make their voices heard and it will.

[pez]

Hindu Proverb: "Pitiful is the one who, fearing failure, makes no beginning."

[kleese]

This might depress some of you...here is a link to some info on the NFL's revenue sharing structure...lots of text, so I won't post it all, but here are some highlights:

http://football.calsci.com/SalaryCap.html

--All TV money is split evenly between the NFL teams regardless of ratings, etc.

--Merchandise sales are also shared. You may choose not to buy any Redskins gear, but every time a Giants fan buys an Eli jersey, Snyder gets a cut as well.

--Gate receipts are split 60-40 with home and road teams. Even if Skins fans stop buying tickets, opposing fans will swoop in and take those seats like we saw in the Pittsburgh game last year.

If you think that by not buying a Redskins hat you are hurting Snyder directly, you are incorrect, period. Just not accurate. All officially licensed product sales are spread evenly around the league.

The money that is NOT shared is when it comes to luxury boxes, etc.. the corporate money is Snyder's alone....if you want to hit him in the wallet, that's what you need to do...convicne local corporations to stop buying the suites--- good luck with that, as they could probably care less about the on-field product.

And Snyder owns FedEX as well, which means all the concerts, events, etc. also help line his pockets....going to the U2 concert actually benefits him more than going to a Redskins game.

[Metskins]

Kleese, I always enjoy your posts. In this case however, I think you take an overly negative view. Half empty stadiums are going to get noticed. All this time, Snyder has been operating with a passionate fanbase that was filling his stadium and singing HTTR at every game. I've talked to a few people in my office who are season tickets, they're already talking about not renewing. Look at the faithful core on here, people like Pez and Huly, who are talking about changing the way they do business when it comes to cheering for this team. It can and will make a difference. Maybe not today, but over time I think it will.

And if you don't think fan outrage can play a part, how do you explain Jim Zorn getting hired over Jim Fassel? It's been well documented that Fassel had an agreement in principle with the Redskins but at the last moment that fell through and the team went after Zorn. You don't think the constant barrage on TV, print and places like Extremeskins had a role in that?

[kleese]

Kleese, I always enjoy your posts. In this case however, I think you take an overly negative view. Half empty stadiums are going to get noticed. All this time, Snyder has been operating with a passionate fanbase that was filling his stadium and singing HTTR at every game. I've talked to a few people in my office who are season tickets, they're already talking about not renewing. Look at the faithful core on here, people like Pez and Huly, who are talking about changing the way they do business when it comes to cheering for this team. It can and will make a difference. Maybe not today, but over time I think it will.

And if you don't think fan outrage can play a part, how do you explain Jim Zorn getting hired over Jim Fassel? It's been well documented that Fassel had an agreement in principle with the Redskins but at the last moment that fell through and the team went after Zorn. You don't think the constant barrage on TV, print and places like Extremeskins had a role in that?

It's just so hard to quantify what the fans actually want him to do. Someone had a good analogy about consumer reaction to "New Coke" vs. regular Coke.

The problem there is simple: We liked the old stuff, we don't like the new stuff-- bring back the old stuff. Consumers were mad-- stated what they wanted, and they got.

With Snyder and the Redskins it's not nearly as black and white.

Is it just firing Vinny? Is it hiring a President/Gm? What if the fans don't like his choice? How can Snyder PROVE that he isn't involved even after he hires a new guy?

Do we really know what went on behind closed doors and will we know in the future?

The fans seem to agree that they want to revolt against Snyder. But Snyder is the problem-- he can't fire himself-- and hey, leopards don't change their spots either.

I am a big sports fan-- I follow the NFL, MLB, and the NBA very closely-- I've seen lots of attempted fan revolts-- and none of them have done much good.

[isle-hawg]

Our loyalty will never falter... our passion will never die.... our dedication will never stop in supporting the REDSKINS...

But... It is time to give the organization a swift kick in the pants...

It is like a parent to a child... we will never stop loving our redskins.... but it is time to break out the belt and give them a good ass whoopin...

What do you propose?:whoknows:

[LD0506]

Well, I think kleese makes some very good points here and asks some very pertinent questions. I for one would want to see a GM appointed with carte blanche authority to remake the franchise into something approaching a professional organization. I EXPECT this guy to **** up, honestly, how would we possibly get a good one to start with? But the very fact that a GM was appointed and had control would be the foundation stone in a recovery. The NEXT GM we saw might be better, have better connections and more options, until the rest of the league was convinced that the bad old days were finally over once and for all.

The whole system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. All these people that get named are symptoms of the larger problem that is TheDan and his way of running things.

And I genuinely believe that the vast majority of the fans would be there, rooting them on through some sorry seasons if they knew that the end result would be a functioning franchise that would compete again someday.

[danielafc]

looking in this thread i see that people are saying the protesting will not work because it didn't work a few other teams not just in football but here in England this is not the case. Last year Newcastle United's(soccer club) manager Kevin Keegan resigned because of Newcastle's Owner called Mike Ashley and director of Soccer dennis Wise and so the fans protested day and night for 2 or 3 days at St James' Park (Newcastle's Stadium) for Mike Ashley to sell the club and for Dennis Wise who was their Director of Soccer (GM) to resign or be sacked.

After days of protests Mike Ashley had put the club for sale but he couldn't sell the club even though he was selling the club for £100 million ($158 million) and Dennis Wise also resigned from Director of Soccer(GM).

So the moral of the story is protests do work if you keep at it and if did do a protest and have the same success as the newcastle fans then Dan would sell the club cheaply and vince would leave aswell

P.S LD0506 your sig is great

[CapitalDefense]

It's a sad state around the Washington Redskins. A sad state indeed. It's sad from the top on down. It has trickled to the fans as well.

Fan "revolts" don't work. Empty seats at the stadium don't even necessarily work. It is an exercise in futlity...if it makes you feel better, then go for it, but it's all sound and fury, signifying nothing-- much like our off-seasons.

--Like many of you, I've been a die-hard fan since birth. Live and die each week with the results of our games, etc... My friends and family associate me directly with the Redskins. It's the same story for most of you.

--And like many of you, I've been beatdown, frustrated, angry, and even resentful for many, many years now.

--And like many of you, I've wondered if I'm somehow contributed to the demise and/or if there is something I can do about it.

My conclusion?

I can't do a dang thing to change our fortunes and neither can you.

It's not like Dan Snyder thinks the fans love what he's doing and will only get the message we're upset if we walk out, boo, don't show, etc.. He knows it already.

It would be one thing if the fans thought that Snyder was cheap and unwilling to spend money in order to improve the team. If THAT was the case, then maybe I could see how some reactionary stuff might have an effect. But clearly, that is not the case.

The fans all want different things...

Some want a new GM

Some want a new coach

Some want a new QB

Some want cheaper parking

Some want a better video board

Some want better draft picks

People act like if we scream loud enough, Snyder will get the message and "fix" the problems. Well, it ain't that easy. Spending money clearly isn't the answer. And finding one man and giving him full control apparantly isn't the answer either....he did that with Gibbs and we're right back where we were before.

If "fxing" a culture of losing in pro sports was as simple as firing one guy and hiring a new guy, then no team would ever be bad.

Also, history is NOT on your side revolters.......

The Pittsburgh Pirates have had 17 straight losing seasons-- a pro sports record. Their fans have boycotted, picketed, screamed, and eventually, just stopped going. They still stink-- nothing has changed.

The Arizona Cardinals were a joke for 50 years-- their fans moaned about the Bidwell family for all of those years-- nothing changed- they just eventually made a few right moves and finally won something.

Am I saying you have to sit there and take whatever the Redskins give you?

Well, sort of.

If you're like me-- you are hopeless-- a friend of mine describes it like being in an abusive relationship you know you can't get out of.

But the bottom line is that at the end of the day, I STILL love Sundays. I still love my routines, love the cameradrie of friends and family, love the food, love wearing my Skins stuff, and hoping against hope each week that they'll win and get going in the right direction. It's still easier to sleep at night when they win and Mondays are tougher when they lose-- regardless of the fact that my expectation level has dwindled to nothing.

If it really isn't fun for you at all anymore, then by all means, you should stop buying tickets, watching them on TV, buying merchandise, etc... if you get no enjoyment from it, then you should stop.

I guess, for me, even though it's like a kick in the crotch, I still enjoy it more than not following or watching. I'd still rather watch the Skins-Chiefs this Sunday than go to the park or the movies.

I think what many fans need to "get over" is this notion that somehow you are "supporting" or "enabling" Snyder by your support of the team.

Here's how I look at it:

I am a fan of the Washington Redskins. The fandom of the organization as a whole goes well beyond any player, coach, or owner. The Redskins as an institution are something I love much more than I hate Snyder.

Dan Snyder is a bazillionaire. As much as it may pain you to hear it, there's nothing we fans are going to do to change that. The Redskins are the second most profitable team in pro sports-- even if you cut the gate sales and merch sales in half, it wouldn't really dent Snyder's overall worth.

Snyder is clearly embarrassed and angry. He's obviously also stubborn as heck on what he needs to do to change things. Maybe he'll never give in--- but don't sit there and think that he's clueless as to what's going on and his perception with the fans. He KNOWS you hate him. He KNOWS the media finds the Redskins to be a laughingstock.

I guess to me, the "fiinal blow" for me as a fan from Snyder would be if I allowed him to take away the Redskins from myself.....I'm not gonna let that happen.

Having said all this, I'd like to state that I personally have no issue with the revolts, paper bags, booing, etc... it's a free country and you can do what you want. If it helps you to cope, then go for it. But please stop telling me about what the fans "need to do" in order to demand change.

This is your reality Redskins fans. You have no control over it. Either accept it and hope for the best or quit it forever.

Vinny Cerrato is that you? Go to hell Viiny, stop coming here trying defending your little buddy.

[Soup]

How the hell does that compare at all? You're talking about a nation of people who in the majority EMBRACED the Nazi party. Though they did of course use intimidation and sneaky tactics to gain seats in the Reichstag, they were democratically elected. The majority of Germans in 1938 would love to identify as Nazis, and furthermore, when it came to many of Hitler's promises for the economy and state of Germany, the Nazis actually delivered on them (before of course catastrophically failing at everything). I've never seen the Redskins deliver on their promises.

I think the example you were looking for would have been to say that other nations, notably those in the league of nations did nothing to stand in the path of Nazi Germany in their expansions into places like Austria and Czechoslovakia, and rather worked on grounds of appeasement as Neville Chamberlain did with his whole "Peace in our time" spiel after negotiation on that bull**** treaty with Hitler.

did you notice the (joke) mention at the end of the post :doh:

I'm not going to get into the whole thing but you are SOOOO wrong about the germans not having an opportunity to stop the rise of the Nazi party.

[Destino]

This might depress some of you...here is a link to some info on the NFL's revenue sharing structure...lots of text, so I won't post it all, but here are some highlights:

http://football.calsci.com/SalaryCap.html

--All TV money is split evenly between the NFL teams regardless of ratings, etc.

--Merchandise sales are also shared. You may choose not to buy any Redskins gear, but every time a Giants fan buys an Eli jersey, Snyder gets a cut as well.

--Gate receipts are split 60-40 with home and road teams. Even if Skins fans stop buying tickets, opposing fans will swoop in and take those seats like we saw in the Pittsburgh game last year.

If you think that by not buying a Redskins hat you are hurting Snyder directly, you are incorrect, period. Just not accurate. All officially licensed product sales are spread evenly around the league.

The money that is NOT shared is when it comes to luxury boxes, etc.. the corporate money is Snyder's alone....if you want to hit him in the wallet, that's what you need to do...convicne local corporations to stop buying the suites--- good luck with that, as they could probably care less about the on-field product.

And Snyder owns FedEX as well, which means all the concerts, events, etc. also help line his pockets....going to the U2 concert actually benefits him more than going to a Redskins game.

And yet some teams are worth more than others, correct? That comes from fan and local community support. Like comercial real estate the length of established contracts and the demand for those contracts boosts or deflates value. A drop off in season ticket renewal, a slide in seats purchased from the ticket office, and similar action will send the value of the teams sliding in a hurry. Also the premium seats (the ones you can buy from the ticket office for just about every game) have a much heavier split towards Snyder.

If your position is everything is split so nothing can be done, you're nuts. There is a reason some teams are worth far more than others and it's not luxury boxes. The bread and butter of every team is local support. If that drops off the value of Snyder's train set takes a hit.

[Dallsux]

My hope is that it gets so bad for him, one of his checks to Haynesworth bounces and Fat Albert sits on the guy.

Yeah, but then Haynesworth will probably sprain his butt again & have to be carted off the property by a boom crane. No one wants to see that. :puke:

[The Sisko]

The damage is done, in that regard Snyder has already "paid the price."

Redskins Nation is much smaller than it used to be and much less intense. No doubt. Our 20 years of misery have totally fractured the fanbase.

I'll be totally honest here....my opinion Redskins fans took it's first hit in 1994....I'd never been to RFK and only heard amazing stories about that place and our fans.

Well, in 1994 we stunk...we played a late season game against the 49ers...they whipped us. Lots of empty seats that day and no one really cared. I was very disappointed in the atmosphere.

Redskins fans are really no better or worse than other fans-- we just built up a very strong following in the 70's and 80's-- it was pretty easy to be a fan in those days. Do you really think RFK would have been "rocking" if we were 6-10 every year?

--I think people VASTLY overrate how much of Snyder's net worth revolves around ticket sales. And if it's only the "sales" that matter, then he's off the hook for the next several years at least as those tickets are already technically sold.

It's about a lot more than ticket sales Kleese. Actually, that's probably the thing that Snyder would least care about.

Think about it. Ticket revenue is shared. Snyder increased the value of the team by increasing marketing and ad revenue. Those were the obvious areas for him to concentrate on because he doesn't have to share that money with other owners.

So, what's the most valuable thing to him then? The Redskins brand. If that goes, the ad revenue, stadium naming rights, etc. all of it simultaneously decreases in value. *POOF* Revenues shrink in a big way. Message received.

Snyder is smart enough to know the value of the brand, or at least he should be. If he sees the beginning of brand erosion in the mind of consumers, i.e. the Redskins become synomymous with losing rather than excellence, he'll know for sure that he needs to do something to stop that from happening.

Now will he go broke? Obviously not. However, his personal and leaguewide prestige willl sure take a hit. As thin skinned as Snyder is, I'm willing to bet he won't let that happen. After all, the Ford's were and are identified with a storied American tradition. OTOH all Snyder really has to make anyone care whether he lives or dies is his "stature" (pun richly intended) as owner of the Redskins. If that diminishes, he becomes just another vertically challenged cad with too much money and too little brainpower.

So those of you that are fed up, do your thing. Don't buy anything Redskins related. Avoid games unless you already have tickets, in which case you should wear a Snyder Sucks t-shirt, do a Snyder Sucks chant, a 2nd quarter walkout...whatever it takes. Give the little **** whatfor.

Heck, I may have a reason to go to the Atlanta game after all. :evilg:

[Long-Time-Fan]

Your tickets are already paid for so your not hurting DS.

It does however make a very big point.

Not buying Season Tickets would hurt DS,but then it also hurts the team and IF it ever got that far you can bet he would just move the team.(many years for something like that to happen I know,but in short thats how it works)

Yea im gonna watch the game against KC,I didnt want to watch Carolina but I did.

I still say keep Vinneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey

And Zorn.

Just keep getting better players and one day we will be fine.

Go Skins

[Dallsux]

I am a big sports fan-- I follow the NFL, MLB, and the NBA very closely-- I've seen lots of attempted fan revolts-- and none of them have done much good.

Which fan revolts are you talking about? I only know of the Lions fans revolting against Millen. Why were these other fan revolts taking place? Same reasons or others? What was the ultimate outcome of these revolts?

[boysetsfire]

You're right Kleese. After 10 or so years of constant mediocrity and no signs of it ever ending the fans should just sit there and take it some more. Take the 8-8 seasons with a smile on our faces while overpaying to go the games. People are fed up, not just from whats occuring this season but from whats been happening for years now.

[GoSkins561]

I could not disagree more. First I agree with a lot of the poster's original comments. I don't thing the purpose of a boycott will cause immediate change. I don't think wanting to do a boycott or something like it makes you less of a fan. To the contrary, I think it shows your dedication and passion. We are disparate and more importantly we want the "RIGHT" change to occur. Firing the head coach is not addressing the real problem.

This is why I think the fans should select one game and try to fill FedEx with empty seats. It will send a message that hasn't been sent before. Yes Dan knows the fans are pissed but he still making a nickel on Sundays. But more than the empty seats, I'd like to see the national sports news coverage of Dan sitting in his owners box watching the team he built in a near empty stadium.

I mean don't even sell your tickets. Eat them for one Sunday. This is the fans collectively turning their backs to the ownership, not the team. Watch them on TV, root for them, just let Dan sit in that stadium with his lackeys watching what he created.

The Eagles game, based on the current ticket prices, they are going to show up in masses anyway, it will really suck if Redskins fans are few and far between.

It will be like the "Trotter" game except worse.

[angel2]

Thanks, but I think you missed my point. Snyder IS the problem-- I just don't think the revolts will do much to solve it.

I did not miss the point of your thread but I am offering my point that we are stuck with Snyder until he deems it necessary to depart with this team. Fans who suggesting that fan pressure will rid us of him are delusional. Your point was well stated that we should as fans just continue to support this and not Snyder's circus of errors and I agree with that.

[Dallsux]

I will say this. Full or empty stadium, as so many have pointed out, those tix are already paid for this season so if it's just about the money for the Danny, then full or empty stadium won't make a lick of difference.

What we need to keep in mind tho is that what we decide now WILL affect next year. If people stop buying tix for next year & the years following, if people stop buying jerseys & stickers & little trinkets for their homes, this will make the difference over the next year or so. NOTHING we do right now, monetarily, will take any affect until next season. But think about how big of an affect it will have if we stopped buying right now. By this time next year, the profits will have plummeted & the seats filled with Eagles, Cowboys & Steelers fans EVERY week. I believe this would make a difference.

But we, as a fanbase would have to hold fast to our demands & not let a FA signing with promises of a land filled with milk & honey slow our roll. I am as die hard as anyone with 3 Redskins tattoos. I'm sick of the way this team is being run...into the ground. I have decided, for myself, that I am not buying anymore Redskins gear~not jerseys, not stickers, nothing~until the FO makes serious changes in how they conduct business. Anything we do as a fanbase to let the FO know that we are displeased WILL have an affect. We just won't see it right away. We would need to exercise some patience (I know, that's a four letter word in Redskins Nation), but I believe that Redskins Nation is such a powerful force that the Danny would HAVE NO CHOICE but to reckon with us!

[kleese]

You're right Kleese. After 10 or so years of constant mediocrity and no signs of it ever ending the fans should just sit there and take it some more. Take the 8-8 seasons with a smile on our faces while overpaying to go the games. People are fed up, not just from whats occuring this season but from whats been happening for years now.

I'm fed up as well...I just don't think anything we do will make a difference. Again, I ask...even if we hit Danny in the wallet hard enough--what makes you think he's going to make the changes YOU want? Each fan seems to have a different idea.

What if Danny fires Vinny, and then hires a GM that makes picks you don't like? Ultimately, Danny will do the choosing, and nothing anyone does can change that.

[SittingBull]

It is just a game but a game that many people pay alot of money to see. Losing is fine, every team loses but it's HOW we've been losing. Our offense can't put up any points and the team is not exciting to watch. Watching the Lions has been more entertaining for me.

If you pay good money for a TV cable service and the number of channels and quality of the channel lineup wasnt up to your standard would you call them and request for them to add some of the channels that their competitors have and if they don't eventually cancel or would you continue to pay the monthly fee for something you're not satisfied with? It's only television after all.

[kleese]

Which fan revolts are you talking about? I only know of the Lions fans revolting against Millen. Why were these other fan revolts taking place? Same reasons or others? What was the ultimate outcome of these revolts?

Both of my other teams (Cleveland Cavs and Cincinnati Reds) have had fans trying to do similar things in years past. The Reds fans, especially have been imploring fellow fans to boycott games, etc... and you know what...people HAVE stopped going...and nothing changed.

The Cavs were a joke organization for 20+ years...the fans mocked them constantly.....then they get lucky in the lottery with Lebron and things are glorious.

The ONLY thing (and I truly believe this) that can really change the culture at Redskins Park is if Danny sells-- if you think you can convince him to do that, then go for it. But just trying to convince him to hire a GM or President you like isn't really solving the problem.

[TotalRecall]

It's not like Dan Snyder thinks the fans love what he's doing and will only get the message we're upset if we walk out, boo, don't show, etc.. He knows it already.

Gee, and how did he find out that the fans are upset?

And finding one man and giving him full control apparantly isn't the answer either....he did that with Gibbs and we're right back where we were before.

Gibbs didn't have full control.