WaPo: Once Again, A Public Trust In Jeopardy

[WM_Marylander]

the waiting list is a myth.

it took my friend 4 years to get GA tickets. He signed up Freshman year in college (2002) and had them by graduation.

I don't know about you, but if it takes that short of a time to cycle through 160k, then something's wrong, or he is just flat out lucky.

In the past, it took forever. My mom waited 24 years to get hers. But i sincerely doubt it's anywhere near that long of a wait now.

[Boss_Hogg]

You think Redskin concession prices are bad, go to the new Cowturd stadium. $65 for a pizza.

[Monte51Coleman]

Are you sure they were GA tickets, and not premium?

Yes, I'm sure.

When I first got offered tickets, in 1998, I had been on the list for over twenty years. I'm familiar with waiting.

I don't still have the letter but I recall being surprised that it wasn't contingent on a premium seat commitment. In fact, the offer was for upper-level GA seats. If a premium purchase was part of the program I would expect to have been offer lower-level seats.

At the time I posted the text of the letter in another thread. I'll try to find it.

(edit) Here it is: http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6458896&postcount=18

I didn't post all of the text, just some highlights. I do remember that the invoice showed seats similar to the ones I once held and that the price was similar as well. They were definitely upper-level GA's.

[McD5]

BTW, who the **** cares how long the damn list is, really? I certainly don't.

I guess that's what happens when sports teams become an identity. People lose track that at the end of the day, it is still a business and occasionally businesses have to get tough with their customers.

People want to feel like they are supporting something that is positive to the community, not something that takes from the community.

They also don't want to feel they are supporting a sleazy tow-truck company.

How about a little honesty for starters? Is that really asking too much?

Cut the dishonest marketing practices. Cut the 160k waiting list bs. Everyone knows that is a lie.

Cut suing people that have been the single best clients in Redskins history--paying top dollar, some of them for decades.

Stop using people. Stop making people feel they have been financially raped when they park for a game.

That would be a great start.

[TheLongshot]

the waiting list is a myth.

it took my friend 4 years to get GA tickets. He signed up Freshman year in college (2002) and had them by graduation.

I don't know about you, but if it takes that short of a time to cycle through 160k, then something's wrong, or he is just flat out lucky.

In the past, it took forever. My mom waited 24 years to get hers. But i sincerely doubt it's anywhere near that long of a wait now.

Again, who cares how long the list is? Wouldn't it be a GOOD thing to know that the wait times are less?

I have a feeling the list is pretty long, but that there are dead names on the list, either duplicates or those who's contact information is no longer good. I also suspect that people on the list actually PASS on season tickets. When you can actually buy tickets on the secondary market for games at a reasonable price, the demand is going to be lower. Not to mention the greatly expanded seating of FedEx field.

[Riggo#44]

One, I really dislike Boswell. Immensely. He is one of the most over-reactionary, uninformed columnist at the post. And that is saying something.

This business practice is highly-questionable at best. I dislike C. Montgomery Snyder and Waylon Cerrato just as much as I do Boswell. However. I cannot feel sorry for Pat Hill if she can't show up for court. Did she turn down a payment plan or settlement? Article didn't say, did it?

This really has the feel of one of those sappy public interest stories and leaves parts of the story out to increase the emotional appeal.

Here is the one issue I can't wrap my mind around, and it gives credence to the Post-Vendetta theory: No one else has picked up this story. Not ESPN. Not SI. Not CBS. Not Fox. Not even the Times. No one.

[WM_Marylander]

The thing that really gets me about all this is how somehow people think that this football team shouldn't be a business, that it should be a public trust of some sort. It isn't. These teams are owned by owners who take the financial risks and also reap the financial rewards. To expect them not to try to maximize their revenue is silly, especially when we expect them to spend money.

The team is a public trust. That's what sports franchises are. If not, he might as well just own a theme park or a sports bar (though they probably would be run in the ground as well) instead. They are a business, but a business that creates revenue due to the faithfulness and enthusiasm of their fans. If fans stop supporting his team, because of disillusionment and belief that the public trust is not being protected, then he's holding the keys to an imaginary empire. Teams need fans, just like most fans are attached to their team. certainly, he has a right to do whatever he wants with the team, but it is ownerships interest to run the team on good faith.

there's also a degree of revenue that is part of the discussion.

There's a significant difference between turning a profit and gouging your fans. It is not a difficult argument to show which side Snyder is on.

Snyder has even said that he has been entrusted with something precious to many more than him. No one would begrudge the guy making money, and reinvesting it right back in the team. heck, no one really cares if a billionaire has basically used his principle purchase and their revenues to pay off his massive loan (which he has done). I don't think most would even care if he dips into the profits and takes a bit out, or raises prices to stay competitive with the product on the field and in the NFL. But in this economy, with many people suffering, he's just asking to have a public backlash. The problem is, Snyder is beyond what's palatable.

[greenmile]

My brother waited 1 year. There is no more waiting list.

[WM_Marylander]

One, I really dislike Boswell. Immensely. He is one of the most over-reactionary, uninformed columnist at the post. And that is saying something.

This business practice is highly-questionable at best. I dislike C. Montgomery Snyder and Waylon Cerrato just as much as I do Boswell. However. I cannot feel sorry for Pat Hill if she can't show up for court. Did she turn down a payment plan or settlement? Article didn't say, did it?

This really has the feel of one of those sappy public interest stories and leaves parts of the story out to increase the emotional appeal.

Here is the one issue I can't wrap my mind around, and it gives credence to the Post-Vendetta theory: No one else has picked up this story. Not ESPN. Not SI. Not CBS. Not Fox. Not even the Times. No one.

they probably aren't going to pick up a columnist piece run by a Post writer.

They might hint at it in their shows, but they're not going to reprint an article that's mostly editorial on their website.

[Monte51Coleman]

Again, who cares how long the list is?

Well, apparently the Redskins do. They are the ones who frequently refer to it.

[Riggo#44]

they probably aren't going to pick up a columnist piece run by a Post writer.

They might hint at it in their shows, but they're not going to reprint an article that's mostly editorial on their website.

I am not just talking about Boz post -- I am talking about the whole story. The ticket brokers, the suing any of it.

[TheLongshot]

The team is a public trust. That's what sports franchises are. If not, he might as well just own a theme park or a sports bar (though they probably would be run in the ground as well) instead. They are a business, but a business that creates revenue due to the faithfulness and enthusiasm of their fans. If fans stop supporting his team, because of disillusionment and belief that the public trust is not being protected, then he's holding the keys to an imaginary empire. Teams need fans, just like most fans are attached to their team. certainly, he has a right to do whatever he wants with the team, but it is ownerships interest to run the team on good faith.

there's also a degree of revenue that is part of the discussion.

There's a significant difference between turning a profit and gouging your fans. It is not a difficult argument to show which side Snyder is on.

Snyder has even said that he has been entrusted with something precious to many more than him. No one would begrudge the guy making money, and reinvesting it right back in the team. heck, no one really cares if a billionaire has basically used his principle purchase and their revenues to pay off his massive loan (which he has done). I don't think most would even care if he dips into the profits and takes a bit out, or raises prices to stay competitive with the product on the field and in the NFL. But in this economy, with many people suffering, he's just asking to have a public backlash. The problem is, Snyder is beyond what's palatable.

The problem is, it works both ways. It seems some people have a different expectation of what they should and should not owe a franchise. I mean, if I have my car repossessed by the loan company and they resell the car, I'm not entitled to get it back. I am also still expected to pay my debts, at least until I declare for bankruptcy. Yet, season tickets are treated differently, I guess because the goods aren't as tangible.

While sports teams do do good things for the community, at the end of the day they are still a business, one that has lots of expenses which the fans expect the team to pay as a manner of course. They expect the team to spend to bring in the players, or else the team is "cheap". On the flip side, to make these expenditures, they need the revenue that they budgeted for. To expect them not to try to recoup this money is kinda silly.

You can be the greatest fan in the world, but if you can't meet your financial obligations, that's tough. No one else is going to forgive you either.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Sure, it's just a business. Do you like patronizing a business with a mediocre product? Would you buy from a merchant that treated you like garbage? Why can the Redskins do no wrong in your eyes?

No one defending the Redskins is saying that any of you guys has to stay on board. When it comes to the NFL, apparently yes, I like patronizing a business with a mediocre product.

But, for any of you who just can't get over these things...feel free to do what you want.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

The problem is, it works both ways. It seems some people have a different expectation of what they should and should not owe a franchise. I mean, if I have my car repossessed by the loan company and they resell the car, I'm not entitled to get it back. I am also still expected to pay my debts, at least until I declare for bankruptcy. Yet, season tickets are treated differently, I guess because the goods aren't as tangible

If your car gets repossessed by the loan company and they sell the car, what they get for it goes toward your debt.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The elephant in the room is the whole waiting list lie. Boswell touched on it, but it needs to be looked at deeper.

Why?

What do you care how long the list really is? They aren't doing anything illegal or anything.

I love how fans sometimes think they have the right to know everything about the internal operations of an organization.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

People want to feel like they are supporting something that is positive to the community, not something that takes from the community.

They also don't want to feel they are supporting a sleazy tow-truck company.

How about a little honesty for starters? Is that really asking too much?

Cut the dishonest marketing practices. Cut the 160k waiting list bs. Everyone knows that is a lie.

Cut suing people that have been the single best clients in Redskins history--paying top dollar, some of them for decades.

Stop using people. Stop making people feel they have been financially raped when they park for a game.

That would be a great start.

Some of us just want to support the product on the field and the players. Personally, I leave the business side of things to the people capable of performing it. If I was qualified to make these decisions, then I'd own a billion-dollar organization.

Snyder has flaws I'm sure...but it's his team and he does his best to put a good product on the field, even if it doesn't always work out.

[kschles]

To me, the heart of the Boswell column is the following:

"Maybe the saddest part is that these incidents - and the Redskins' attemtps to spin them as insignificant, rare, and legally defensible - takes you close to the heart of this franchise. This is a business that does not appear to have a core set of repectable values. Many who have left the organization, from a Redskins icon such as Bobby Mitchell to a public relations director, walk out the door shaking their heads about the place they had worked."

It's been a sad 10+ years under Mr Snyder. I'll always root for the Redskins, but hope that we get new management. I don't think anyone can "learn" their way out of the cesspool that has been created.

[ntotoro]

If your car gets repossessed by the loan company and they sell the car, what they get for it goes toward your debt.

Same with a home foreclosure.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Same with a home foreclosure.

Again, maybe I missed something...but has it been determined that the Redskins are NOT doing this?

[SonnyandSam]

Wow...such hatred for all things Washington. Snyder is such a devil.....gee....no surprise there was no mention of all the charitable stuff he has done and donated including whole wings of hospitals, the Redskins Charitable Foundation, the stuff they do for the youth of DC, etc. Real even handed article, Boswell.

Now, Danny has done a lot of very stupid things that have cost him a lot of good will with the fans in excange for relatively marginal revenue and has yet to produce a consistent winning team....but man.....such hatred.

Hey Boswell....exactly what does the Washington Post do to its vendors and advertisers when they fail to pay their bills? Your company just says "nevermind".....right? The Post has never sued anyone, right?

[tshile]

Again, maybe I missed something...but has it been determined that the Redskins are NOT doing this?

The only thing that has been determined is that:

- when the ticket holder does not respond to the redskins attempts to negotiate a settlement of teh contract, they sue

- when the person doesn't show up to court (liek the people the post interviewed) they get a judgement against them and do not get teh tickets

everything else is speculation, but wont stop the hatred.

[llcamino]

Why?

What do you care how long the list really is? They aren't doing anything illegal or anything.

I love how fans sometimes think they have the right to know everything about the internal operations of an organization.

Why? Because it's an example of Danny lying to the public. Illegal? No, because it's not a public company. Unethical, Yes, big surprise! Par for the course from Danny and company.

The reason it matters is that if you cite 160,000 waiting list (I think the lawyer did), then you would think you'd have a enough interest to buy the seats of the 125 people they've sued. Also, by constantly telling people there is a waiting list, they are creating a false value of their product. People feel "lucky" that their name came up and feel like they can't pass them up. How many posts have we seen where people are elated that "my name finally came up!", all while they're busy hounding people who dropped to come back. While it's still up to the consumer to buy the product, they Redskins aren't being entirely truthful. Illegal, No. Unethical, Yes!

To those defending Snyder and calling his critics naive, or saying they have an axe to grind, do you think it's possible that someone knows more about the inner workings of the Redskins organization than you?

Do you think Tom Boswell has talked to more Redskins employees (current and former) than you?

Have you been in the same room with Snyder and seen how he treats people? I have.

Have you seen how Karl Swanson treats people? I have.

For the record, I think there is more to the story about some of the people that are sued. If you commit to a "luxury" item, you should know how to manage your business so that you prepare for the bad times. But if they have 160K people waiting, wouldn't it be easier to confince 125 of them to get luxury seats than to sue?

[mbws]

The elephant in the room is the whole waiting list lie. Boswell touched on it, but it needs to be looked at deeper. If there really is a 160,000 waiting list, why were they calling us repeatedly this summer begging us to renew our crappy, overpriced tickets in the top corner of the endzone. Just move to the next on the list if you have that many people champing at the bit!

While Snyder is increasing the "value" of the team, he is alienating fans by the thousands each day. Once he runs through the "insurance policy" of loyal fans that he inherited, the Redskins will be in the toilet (business wise) just like everything else he has put his hands on lately.

People join the wait list, just to be on it, with no intention of ever buying season tickets when their names come up.

Also, people like me who lost their jobs this year, could not afford the tickets once their names came up, and they gave up the 100.00 per seat deposits.

[llcamino]

People join the wait list, just to be on it, with no intention of ever buying season tickets when their names come up.

Also, people like me who lost their jobs this year, could not afford the tickets once their names came up, and they gave up the 100.00 per seat deposits.

I understand that. But we're talking about a supposed 160K people. Surely if they REALLY have that many, someone can fill those 125 spots.

Also, if there was REALLY $160K, why did my family get called after 3 years on the list? Why did we get to move up in our section EVERY year? And why were they calling us offering the lower part of our section for the same price as the top part for the same price, to keep us in our tickets?

[tshile]

I understand that. But we're talking about a supposed 160K people. Surely if they REALLY have that many, someone can fill those 125 spots.

Also, if there was REALLY $160K, why did my family get called after 3 years on the list? Why did we get to move up in our section EVERY year? And why were they calling us offering the lower part of our section for the same price as the top part for the same price, to keep us in our tickets?

because thats the way it works.

when a section opens up they try to give it to the people who already ahve tickets, that it makes the most sense.

IE: If your in the uper GA with 3 seats, and a section in the lower GA with 3 seats opens up - they'll ask you. Once they go through everyonet hey move on the waiting list.

That way someone who's had tickets for 40 years doesn't get stuck int he upper level while someone who's just getting tickets gets to go to the lower level.