WaPo: Once Again, A Public Trust In Jeopardy

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Why? Because it's an example of Danny lying to the public. Illegal? No, because it's not a public company. Unethical, Yes, big surprise! Par for the course from Danny and company.

The reason it matters is that if you cite 160,000 waiting list (I think the lawyer did), then you would think you'd have a enough interest to buy the seats of the 125 people they've sued.

To those defending Snyder and calling his critics naive, or saying they have an axe to grind, do you think it's possible that someone knows more about the inner workings of the Redskins organization than you?

Do you think Tom Boswell has talked to more Redskins employees (current and former) than you?

Have you been in the same room with Snyder and seen how he treats people? I have.

Have you seen how Karl Swanson treats people? I have.

For the record, I think there is more to the story about some of the people that are sued. If you commit to a "luxury" item, you should know how to manage your business so that you prepare for the bad times. But if they have 160K people waiting, wouldn't it be easier to confince 125 of them to get luxury seats than to sue?

First of all...there is a list. The length or how serious about purchasing tickets each member is may be up for debate, but there is a waiting list to purchase general admission tickets. If there wasn't, you'd be able to walk up to a window and buy tickets.

Secondly, I'm sure Boz has much more knowledge than I do and has spoken to many more Redskin employees. However, I also know he writes for a paper that has an agenda when it comes to the Redskins and has taken a very antagonistic approach to its coverage of the team. I also understand that he has no incentive to paint a fair picture when writing this story or it becomes a meaningless, throw-away story. How print-worthy is a story that says "The Redskins RIGHTFULLY sued and won settlements in cases where people owed them money despite attempting to work out payment plans"?? That's not going to sell many papers.

Thirdly, I have no clue how Snyder or Swanson treat people, but that also doesn't exactly help us realize the facts of this particular story. I would bet they do more nice/good things than the Post reports on though.

Finally, everyone loves to mention the 160K people that are lined up for those precious 125 sets of tickets. What no one concedes is that it's apples and oranges. People on the list are willing to spend $100 to see a game. People who are breaching their contract are spending thousands. So, that continual misinformation isn't doing much to paint an accurate picture.

Essentially, if you have to fabricate evidence and mislead people to prove your point (by implying that all tickets are the same), maybe you don't have a very good point.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

because thats the way it works.

when a section opens up they try to give it to the people who already ahve tickets, that it makes the most sense.

IE: If your in the uper GA with 3 seats, and a section in the lower GA with 3 seats opens up - they'll ask you. Once they go through everyonet hey move on the waiting list.

That way someone who's had tickets for 40 years doesn't get stuck int he upper level while someone who's just getting tickets gets to go to the lower level.

Nope...too logical. The real reason is because there's no list and Danny has been buying up all the available GA tickets to avoid blackouts! Plus, why would he offer ticket-holders any perks since he eats kittens and is a vampire? He hates the fanbase and the city of DC.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

because thats the way it works.

when a section opens up they try to give it to the people who already ahve tickets, that it makes the most sense.

IE: If your in the uper GA with 3 seats, and a section in the lower GA with 3 seats opens up - they'll ask you. Once they go through everyonet hey move on the waiting list.

That way someone who's had tickets for 40 years doesn't get stuck int he upper level while someone who's just getting tickets gets to go to the lower level.

unless you have money you can jump the person who has had tickets for 40 years, and whats premium about paying a extra 1000dollars per seat? a free bbq with frozen burgers before the game?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

unless you have money you can jump the person who has had tickets for 40 years, and whats premium about paying a extra 1000dollars per seat? a free bbq with frozen burgers before the game?

Of course...money talks. If someone is willing to overpay for premium seats and enjoy whatever perks come with them, who cares?

Are we now going to bash Snyder for offering premium tickets? Should every ticket be general admission?

[tshile]

unless you have money you can jump the person who has had tickets for 40 years, and whats premium about paying a extra 1000dollars per seat? a free bbq with frozen burgers before the game?

having money gets you into premium seats

not GA

BTW - are there 99$ tickets in the lower bowl?

My understanding was that the cheapest seats below the upper deck (400's) were 3k year/seat which works out to about 300$/seat per game.

I'd love to move into the lower bowl, just not sure if I want to go from 44$ to 99$ a seat...

[SilkyDiamonds]

I think Standard Oil and John D Rockefeller were in business to make a profit as well, and we all know they had the CONSUMER's best interest at heart

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Of course...money talks. If someone is willing to overpay for premium seats and enjoy whatever perks come with them, who cares?

Are we now going to bash Snyder for offering premium tickets? Should every ticket be general admission?

the only thing premium is the price. I am talking about the LL here.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

the only thing premium is the price. I am talking about the LL here.

Well, I don't really understand your point. Are you saying it's unfair that "premium" seats are more expensive than general admission?

[National Defense]

all you folks who are saying that this is only about premium club seats seem to forget that $nydor has recaptured many GA seats in the lower bowl (and even in the first few rows of the upper bowl) and recategorized them as premium.

[The Sisko]

The thing that really gets me about all this is how somehow people think that this football team shouldn't be a business, that it should be a public trust of some sort. It isn't. These teams are owned by owners who take the financial risks and also reap the financial rewards. To expect them not to try to maximize their revenue is silly, especially when we expect them to spend money.

I guess that's what happens when sports teams become an identity. People lose track that at the end of the day, it is still a business and occasionally businesses have to get tough with their customers.

The business angle is precisely the problem. In your usual zeal to defend Snyder at all costs you lost sight of something. That is, it's a poor business decision. The team is likely to collect little by suing the fans who don't live up to their end of the contract. Guess what? That's one of the risks of business.

Again, just because the team can sue fans doesn't mean it should do so, not because it's the charitable thing to do, but because it's a dumb business decision. They'll probably recover little from these suits because in most cases, there's just nothing there for them to collect. When they do manage to collect a few bucks, the return is far outweighed by the negative PR, customer dissatisfaction and perhaps most importantly, the increased difficulty in selling those empty, overpriced premium seats.

Now for the record, please try to explain how suing the fans is going to help sell more of those premium seats? In fact, since the best they probably do in most cases is to sell the judgements to a collection agency for pennies on the dollar, I'd be interested in hearing your explanation for how it benefits the team's bottom line at all. And don't forget, getting those judgements isn't free, there are legal expenses involved. Good luck explaining that.

...I abhor intellectual laziness and most of the people discussing this issue have it in spades, on all sides. Before anyone rubber stamps Boswell's piece as "just being real" because it validates your already-existing opinion of Snyder, try seeing the issue from more sides than just the one.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

I read most of the previous thread on this issue and you seemed to be awfully stuck in your previously existing opinion that "A contract is legally binding and the fans in question should have paid up or suffered the consequences" without addressing the very valid points made by several posters that the Redskins were legally within their rights to sue and yet it was a poor business decision. Therefore, I'd certainly like to see you take a shot at answering the questions I posed above.

Since the Redskins seem to have settled with the great majority of the fans that were able to get representation, I'd love to see someone challenge their sales contract to determine if perhaps it's unreasonable and thus unenforceable. Yes, there is such a thing.

Also, I'd love to see the fans that were sued demand that the Redskins prove the degree to which they've been damaged by the breach of contract. Were that to happen, I suspect in most cases the fans would get their judgements reduced.

I'm not an attorney and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night so I don't make any claims about how well any of the above strategies would work. However, I just wanted to provide some food for thought to point out that contracts are not always set in stone. Now I'm sure Snyder had his attorneys go over the contracts beforehand but given Snyder's aggresive nature and lack of attention to detail on other things, it wouldn't surprise me if the contracts were flawed.

[llcamino]

because thats the way it works.

when a section opens up they try to give it to the people who already ahve tickets, that it makes the most sense.

IE: If your in the uper GA with 3 seats, and a section in the lower GA with 3 seats opens up - they'll ask you. Once they go through everyonet hey move on the waiting list.

That way someone who's had tickets for 40 years doesn't get stuck int he upper level while someone who's just getting tickets gets to go to the lower level.

That answers the question of why we moved up. Which I mentioned to demonstrate that people are dropping like flies.

But it doesn't explain why they were calling on a weekly basis trying to get us to sign up after we elected not to renew...or why it only took us 3 years to get the seats.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

all you folks who are saying that this is only about premium club seats seem to forget that $nydor has recaptured many GA seats in the lower bowl (and even in the first few rows of the upper bowl) and recategorized them as premium.

So?

All that's done is hurt himself since they don't sell as easily. If he needed to make money, wouldn't you prefer he do that rather than raise ticket prices of GA seats?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That answers the question of why we moved up. Which I mentioned to demonstrate that people are dropping like flies.

But it doesn't explain why they were calling on a weekly basis trying to get us to sign up after we elected not to renew...or why it only took us 3 years to get the seats.

I don't know why you'd need a concrete answer for that? Maybe the ticket office isn't a smooth-running machine? At any rate, is it your contention that there is no waiting list or that it's shorter than 160K?

Also, there once was a time when Redskin fans celebrated (not complained) when they were contacted for season tickets.

[tycoonheart]

I keep hearing some of you guys say the Post has an agenda against the Redskins organization. Can you tell me what exactly this agenda is and what its purpose is? They want Skins fans to stop support their team? If the WP wants its paper to be successful, would it really make sense for them to try to get people to supporting this team? Who else would read these columns? And what examples are there that suggest that the Post has an agenda against the team? Someone?

[tshile]

But it doesn't explain why they were calling on a weekly basis trying to get us to sign up after we elected not to renew...or why it only took us 3 years to get the seats.

one of my bosses is on the waiting list. has been for a long time.

they call him every year to offer him seats - he turns it down, but stays ont he waiting list.

I'm sure there are tons of people in that situation. They could get seats now, but its not affordable for them due to the economy or other things.

Doesn't mean the waitinglist doesn't exist... just means the people on it are not able to buy tickets but want to stay on the list. The redskinsa knowledged this was going on, they also said there's probably many cases of people being on the list twice.

[tshile]

I keep hearing some of you guys say the Post has an agenda against the Redskins organization. Can you tell me what exactly this agenda is and what its purpose is? They want Skins fans to stop support their team? If the WP wants its paper to be successful, would it really make sense for them to try to get people to supporting this team? Who else would read these columns? And what examples are there that suggest that the Post has an agenda against the team? Someone?

It goes back to when snyder took over the team, and how he treated the post. Basically snyder tries to screw over anyone he can't control - which is why he bought the red zebra radio network then refused to renegotiate (reasonably at least) with WJFK about carying the games.

the post and snyder have been at it for the last 10 years.... this isn't exactly a new thing

[Fuzzyskins]

There is most certainly a waiting list.

It was much more affective in the distant past where fans had to make a determined effort to sign up vs. filling it out online or signing up at some event to get a free trinket.

One one hand you actively pursued something so when your name was called you jumped at the chance. Recently it has been much easier to join so the payoff when your name comes up isn't as big...hard to overcome even with such a high volume of names

[tycoonheart]

It goes back to when snyder took over the team, and how he treated the post. Basically snyder tries to screw over anyone he can't control - which is why he bought the red zebra radio network then refused to renegotiate (reasonably at least) with WJFK about carying the games.

the post and snyder have been at it for the last 10 years.... this isn't exactly a new thing

So we are assuming since the Post comes out with a few negative columns about the Redskins that they have an axe to grind with the organization? Or are there other concrete examples of what the Post has done against the Redskins to support this theory?

[National Defense]

So?

All that's done is hurt himself since they don't sell as easily. If he needed to make money, wouldn't you prefer he do that rather than raise ticket prices of GA seats?

you are totally missing the point. he removed GA seats from the pool (in some cases by revoking season ticket rights from certain long time holders who sold them in the secondary market) , can no longer sell them as premium, and instead of turning them back into GA seats the skins are selling to brokers or on stub hub directly (and not giving them as upgrades or to people on the waitlist). the issues with what the skins do to someone who tries to get out of the longer term contracts are clear.

if he tries to raise prices, he will lose even more season ticketholders.

[llcamino]

First of all...

Essentially, if you have to fabricate evidence and mislead people to prove your point (by implying that all tickets are the same), maybe you don't have a very good point.

I am asking this question seriously, because I honestly don't know. I don't live in the DC area, so I was only able to start reading WaPost online until around the start of the Snyder era. How did the post and Boswell treat the skins before Snyder?

As far as Snyder doing good things. Sure there are some. As a matter of fact, Snyder's people did ONE good thing for someone I know who worked for them. And this ONE thing was tremendous. However, it wasn't enough to keep this person from leaving the job (which by most people's opinion would be a dream job) after 5 years. With Snyder, the good just doesn't outweigh the bad.

The way that Snyder treats people doesn't help us with the "facts" of this story, but it should lend credibilty to the so called "haters". His reputation is built on much more than the Post's "axe to grind".

Lastly, I understand that the 160K waiting list is for GA. My point is that, considering I know someone who did this, I believe that you can find 125 people in that group that would be willing to spend the money for the luxury seats?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

you are totally missing the point. he removed GA seats from the pool (in some cases by revoking season ticket rights from certain long time holders who sold them in the secondary market) , can no longer sell them as premium, and instead of turning them back into GA seats the skins are selling to brokers or on stub hub directly (and not giving them as upgrades or to people on the waitlist). the issues with what the skins do to someone who tries to get out of the longer term contracts are clear.

if he tries to raise prices, he will lose even more season ticketholders.

Well, the sale of the seats to brokers wasn't sanctioned by the team and people were fired. As for turning them back into GA, isn't that his choice? I guess I'm not sure what point I'm missing? What are you saying Snyder should do...give it to me in summary form please.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I am asking this question seriously, because I honestly don't know. I don't live in the DC area, so I was only able to start reading WaPost online until around the start of the Snyder era. How did the post and Boswell treat the skins before Snyder?

As far as Snyder doing good things. Sure there are some. As a matter of fact, Snyder's people did ONE good thing for someone I know who worked for them. And this ONE thing was tremendous. However, it wasn't enough to keep this person from leaving the job (which by most people's opinion would be a dream job) after 5 years. With Snyder, the good just doesn't outweigh the bad.

The way that Snyder treats people doesn't help us with the "facts" of this story, but it should lend credibilty to the so called "haters". His reputation is built on much more than the Post's "axe to grind".

Lastly, I understand that the 160K waiting list is for GA. My point is that, considering I know someone who did this, I believe that you can find 125 people in that group that would be willing to spend the money for the luxury seats?

I'm sure you can find those people and I'll bet they are actively doing that. However, you have to protect yourself and, until the seats are filled, why not attempt to work with the people currently USING those tickets? They apparently approached current ticket owners with payment plans and other options, but in some cases had to go to court. Sifting through thousands of names of people wanting GA and finding even a few who have the means for premium seating certainly won't happen overnight.

The Post typically was pretty pro-Redskin. I don't honestly remember what sparked this type of coverage.

[tshile]

So we are assuming since the Post comes out with a few negative columns about the Redskins that they have an axe to grind with the organization? Or are there other concrete examples of what the Post has done against the Redskins to support this theory?

*sigh*

the story ahs been posted multiple times in the 5 threads on this.

plus its pretty common knowledge of the people in the area.

i'm not going to argue with you about it, go research it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

There is most certainly a waiting list.

It was much more affective in the distant past where fans had to make a determined effort to sign up vs. filling it out online or signing up at some event to get a free trinket.

One one hand you actively pursued something so when your name was called you jumped at the chance. Recently it has been much easier to join so the payoff when your name comes up isn't as big...hard to overcome even with such a high volume of names

That's a great point. These days, I wouldn't be surprised if many people were on the list and just don't realize it. The list has probably transformed a bit from a "season ticket waiting list" to a "marketing cold call list" and is used for multiple purposes. Also, it's quite possible that anytime you purchase something from Redskins.com, they add your name to the list as someone who might be interested.

[llcamino]

I don't know why you'd need a concrete answer for that? Maybe the ticket office isn't a smooth-running machine? At any rate, is it your contention that there is no waiting list or that it's shorter than 160K?

Also, there once was a time when Redskin fans celebrated (not complained) when they were contacted for season tickets.

I'm saying there is a waiting list, but it's size is grossly inflated by Snyder for the sole purpose of trying to increase the "elite" status and priveledge of purchasing an overpriced, inferior product. Yet another fine example of Snyder's "honorable" business practices, much like suing his fans. Remember, the original article mentioned that several teams do NOT sue their fans. Just because he "can" doesn't mean he "must".