ES: Campbell haters beware

[TSO]

:no:

Sorry, you've left out that Brunell, once again was playing hurt towards the end of the 2005 season. Losing Patten obviously hurt because we had nothing behind him, but seriously, Patten didn't do enough to merit anything in the grand scheme of things.

I responded to you a few pages back when you mentioned Brunells injury, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I feel like you are too willing to throw it onto ONE thing, instead of looking at all the factors in which Patten was surely one of them. Losing Randy Thomas, Brunells injury, Patten being injured, and defensive coordinators scheming better against us were all factors in our offensive struggles that year. Longshot posted a stat that really provides great proof of Patten's contributions in taking some pressure off Moss.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I misunderstood when he said:

I somehow managed to view that as him calling out Brunell in 05 as well, which is what he is doing nonetheless, considering he is saying that Brees and Brady are the only two QBs that could possibly deal with such an awful receiver like Patten, right?

Either way, you're right... he didn't call Brunell a scrub, but how does that make anything else I said "inconsistent"? It seems like your grasping for straws there, lol. Please show me. The exaggerations are only on your side, claiming that Patten had nothing to do with our passing offense in 05. That's what we're counter-arguing, and you both have yet to provide any evidence suggesting we're wrong besides ridiculous exaggerations and insults towards Patten.

Any answers to this fine response gentleman?

brunell is not drew brees.

brunell is not tom brady.

david patten isnt/wasnt very good.

see heres the difference. in his career, david patten has done pretty good with two QBs. both of them are going to canton (brees if he keeps it up). brunell had a great start to a season in 05 and moss was the beneficiary. its scary to think about moss playing with tom brady. we'll never know though.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I responded to you a few pages back when you mentioned Brunells injury, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I feel like you are too willing to throw it onto ONE thing, instead of looking at all the factors in which Patten was surely one of them. Losing Randy Thomas, Brunells injury, Patten being injured, and defensive coordinators scheming better against us were all factors in our offensive struggles that year. Longshot posted a stat that really provides great proof of Patten's contributions in taking some pressure off Moss.

nobody missed patten, youre completely delusional. youre acting like he was this WR that commanded so much attention as to move attention off of moss which is just plain stupid.

so you can either believe one of two things.

1. our passing game declined because mark brunell was old/injured and not playing as well as he did to start the season.

2. we lost david patten.

typing number 2 actually made me laugh.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I see some saying: "Oh, so Campbell needs elite OL and WRs otherwise he's terrible, that's what you're saying." A cute spin, but I wonder how Tom Brady would fare w/o a great OL and elite WRs like Randy Moss and Wes Welker (he's elite in the slot).

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with a good line and less than elite receivers. :2cents:

[CRobi21]

WTF are you guys talking about Brunell, Patten, Brady, and Breese for?

The topic is about JC.

If you don't have anything to say about the OP and the topic, move the hell on.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with a good line and less than elite receivers. :2cents:

"hi, im deion branch".

also another tidbit, brady didnt have a starting receiver over 6 feet tall on his 3 superbowl teams.

[TSO]

nobody missed patten, youre completely delusional. youre acting like he was this WR that commanded so much attention as to move attention off of moss which is just plain stupid.

so you can either believe one of two things.

1. our passing game declined because mark brunell was old/injured and not playing as well as he did to start the season.

2. we lost david patten.

typing number 2 actually made me laugh.

Are you kidding me? Stop exaggerating!!! I never once said he commanded "so much" attention, just that he was a viable threat at the no. 2 WR spot and that he did help relieve pressure off of Moss! My heads going to friggin explode!

And why can't you understand that BOTH factors we're true all at the same time? Are you that narrow-minded? Both Patten being injured AND Brunell playing hurt contributed to our offensive struggles. Once again, the reason we brought in Lloyd and Randle El was because we felt like Patten couldn't stay healthy and we wanted to relieve the pressure off of Moss! You have yet to reply to both Longshot and Thinking Skins who provided legitimate reasoning for why Moss benefited from having Patten on the other side.

Stop exaggerating and putting words in my mouth because you can't respond with any semblance of intellectual honesty.

[SoCalSkins]

In fact, can anybody actually name an a QB who has performed greatly despite a crappy OL? And with midgets at WRs who lead the league as a group in drops?

What's really sad is that all this evidence brought up by the article were brought up before, and soundly dismissed as "excuses" by the vocal minority. Now with all the evidence staring them in the face from a legit source, they are the ones scrambling for "excuses" rather than make the simple admission that Campbell didn't have the best surrounding cast in the 2nd half of the season, and that negatively impacted his performance.

Todd Collins is the answer to your 1st question.

There is no evidence. It is all subjective BS as to what a "drop" is and is not. The formula does not deduct passes that are thrown far short of the 1st down marker which are the equivalent of an incomplete in most cases. The formula also does not factor in scoring.

The most basic judment of a QB is wethether or not he gives his team the best chance to win over other QB's on his team. That is the simplest standard to meet before being compared to anyone else in the NFL.

Here is how JC has performed compared to other Skins QBs:

The Redskins have made the playoffs every year JC has not finished as starter since he was drafted.

0 wins against teams finishing with 10 or more wins the past 2 years. Opponents score 207 Skins 91. Record 0-8. (11.375 points per game for the Skins only 7.5 per game in 2008)

1 Pass Interference call in 506 attempts in 2008.

15-20 Redskins record in games he played at least a half.

5-10 against teams finishing above .500.

1-9 against teams finishing with 10 or more wins.

6-17 record in the last 8 games of the season he played more than a half.

Other skins QB's in the time span he has been on the team:

2-0 versus teams finishing with 10 or more wins over the past 2 years. Redskins 49 opponents 16. (24.5 points per game for the Skins)

17-12 overall record with JC playing less than a half.

12-8 in the last 8 games of the season when JC played less than a half.

9-8 against teams finishing above .500.

5-6 against teams finishing with 10 or more wins.

Putting all of this aside, let's assume that you are 100% correct. It is not JC's fault but is his teammates o-line, receivers, running backs etc. He has not been able to succeed with them up to this point and if anything it looks like the line might end up being worse than before. So why should Campbell start if he can't succeed under those circumstances. Do you hate the guy? Do you want him to fail?

Reality is that the easiest way to find out if it is Campbell or not, is to play another QB in the regular season. Let's see if Collins was a fluke or not. If you are so confident in JC, than Todd should fall flat on his face and perform far worse than JC. After all, TC has 80% less NFL starting experience in the NFL than JC and zero on a WCO team. That way he can be given his extension and apology . The team will get out the plunger, clean him off and build a statue in his honor.

[TSO]

WTF are you guys talking about Brunell, Patten, Brady, and Breese for?

The topic is about JC.

If you don't have anything to say about the OP and the topic, move the hell on.

lol, I know. :doh:

It's partly my fault because I'm keeping it going here, but it's because they're using Brunell's deep throws to Moss in 05 as evidence that Campbell can't get it done. When presented with the fact that Patten relieved pressure off of Moss and was a viable no. 2 receiver, along with better Oline play in general and the fact that a lot of TDs were scored in the red zone and not from the deep throw they found it more convenient to focus on whether or not Patten was worth anything since his stats that year don't show much.

[Botched]

That shows that there are situations that he can read a defense. That disproves the "he can't read read a defense" argument. End of story.

Now, one can certainly change their argument from an extreme and untenable position like "can't" to "not proficient to my liking". But that's a different story, and one that I would respect a good deal more.

I don't see how another stat, whatever the circumstances, disproves what we've already established - Campbell CAN read a defense.

If your argument is he CAN NOT read a defense, then you need to show in all circumstances how he CAN NOT read a defense or you need to disprove the situations in which others say he's shown he CAN read a defense.

And murf's quoting FO certainly talks about the "more to the story" (how awful the run game was last year, leaving the team in many 3rd and longs with only 1 deep threat).

In any event, I don't take too much issue with the folks that say they don't believe Campbell is the answer for this team. There are certainly outstanding questions as to his ability to lead this team with all it's warts and beauty marks.

However, I do take issue with the folks that say Campbell is awful, retarded, lucky to be in the league, can't read a defense, etc., because so much objective and subjective data point in the other direction.

It would be the same as folks saying Portis should be released because the latest evidence (i.e. the last 8 games of 2008) show he's an awful RB.

If all you're arguing is that Jason can read ONE defense out of many, then the stat certainly helps your case. Even so, one good stat against this one defense does not prove that Campbell is good at reading it. It just proves that he had success against this one defense. For all we or FO knows, Zorn routinely called the right play to beat a zone defense. Does that mean he read it perfectly or he executed the play that was called?

If I say "Shaquille O'Neal can't shoot free throws." and then he makes 1 out of 10, am I wrong? I certainly don't think so. So if I have to prove that Jason Campbell can't read ANY defense, then I'll ask you to prove that he can read MOST defenses.

Just a little observational rant:

All through 2007 I wondered why our wide receivers never got open. I'd see Jason standing in the pocket, looking around and not finding anything, and I just assumed we had the only WRs in the league who never got open. I mean, they didn't have a TD for the first half of the season so they obviously weren't getting open.

Then Todd Collins came in and suddenly our receivers were open. They were catching passes in stride and had good separation. That was the point that it clicked for me that Jason Campbell could not read a defense, and I have seen little progression from that.

/end foggy dream sequence:)

I think it was zoony who made an excellent thread about Jason not being able to read defenses. I'll try to find it.

[ST is my boy]

Jesus I dont think anyone is saying JC is not of ANY fault. Why cant everyone stop exaggerating SO freaken much, and just see that the OP was just trying to show that there were other factors?

Christ.

[elkabong82]

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with a good line and less than elite receivers. :2cents:

Already responded to that. The offense of the Patriots now is far superior to their old offense w/o Moss and Welker.

Before then the team relied much more on their D and kicker, especially in '01. You all know this.

[jaydub]

Great article Murf. Stats don't lie. I hope the line and recievers step up this year.

[wvtbred]

Great article Murf. Stats don't lie. I hope the line and recievers step up this year.

Stats don't lie but can be manipulated for any purpose.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

also another tidbit, brady didnt have a starting receiver over 6 feet tall on his 3 superbowl teams.

Well how did they score??

[SoCalSkins]

well since i clearly know nothing about the sport of football and im in the presence of so many knowledgeable fans, would someone be kind enough to give me an explanation as to why he he only drew one pass interference call last season? surely someone must know.

im looking for something other than "i dont know" or "its hard to say".

He is aware that he can't make clutch throws and is afraid of being exposed so he doesn't take risks. I suspect the Dallas game in 2007 may have awoken him to that reality particularly with the subsequent crying tantrum in the locker room after the game. He is now riding it out as long as he can.

Or it could be that he took Gibbs literally and played hit guts out. As a result, he can now only play gutless football.

[elkabong82]

Todd Collins is the answer to your 1st question.

There is no evidence. It is all subjective BS as to what a "drop" is and is not. The formula does not deduct passes that are thrown far short of the 1st down marker which are the equivalent of an incomplete in most cases. The formula also does not factor in scoring.

The most basic judment of a QB is wethether or not he gives his team the best chance to win over other QB's on his team. That is the simplest standard to meet before being compared to anyone else in the NFL.

Here is how JC has performed compared to other Skins QBs:

The Redskins have made the playoffs every year JC has not finished as starter since he was drafted.

0 wins against teams finishing with 10 or more wins the past 2 years. Opponents score 207 Skins 91. Record 0-8. (11.375 points per game for the Skins only 7.5 per game in 2008)

1 Pass Interference call in 506 attempts in 2008.

15-20 Redskins record in games he played at least a half.

5-10 against teams finishing above .500.

1-9 against teams finishing with 10 or more wins.

6-17 record in the last 8 games of the season he played more than a half.

Other skins QB's in the time span he has been on the team:

2-0 versus teams finishing with 10 or more wins over the past 2 years. Redskins 49 opponents 16. (24.5 points per game for the Skins)

17-12 overall record with JC playing less than a half.

12-8 in the last 8 games of the season when JC played less than a half.

9-8 against teams finishing above .500.

5-6 against teams finishing with 10 or more wins.

Putting all of this aside, let's assume that you are 100% correct. It is not JC's fault but is his teammates o-line, receivers, running backs etc. He has not been able to succeed with them up to this point and if anything it looks like the line might end up being worse than before. So why should Campbell start if he can't succeed under those circumstances. Do you hate the guy? Do you want him to fail?

Reality is that the easiest way to find out if it is Campbell or not, is to play another QB in the regular season. Let's see if Collins was a fluke or not. If you are so confident in JC, than Todd should fall flat on his face and perform far worse than JC. After all, TC has 80% less NFL starting experience in the NFL than JC and zero on a WCO team. That way he can be given his extension and apology . The team will get out the plunger, clean him off and build a statue in his honor.

Yeah, a performance over 4 games, followed by regression in the playoffs, while the entire team is playing inspired. Only morons and people so obsessed with their own agenda and being right would try to discredit what this team did for Sean Taylor and lump the credit all on Collins instead in order to try and make their opinions on Campbell seem right. Pathetic.

But yes, let's completely ignore all the statistical evidence and instead listen to someone who can't even see how agenda-driven their own posting is. All that evidence is "subjective" and yours is completely unbiased. Ok. :doh:

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Are you kidding me? Stop exaggerating!!! I never once said he commanded "so much" attention, just that he was a viable threat at the no. 2 WR spot and that he did help relieve pressure off of Moss! My heads going to friggin explode!

And why can't you understand that BOTH factors we're true all at the same time? Are you that narrow-minded? Both Patten being injured AND Brunell playing hurt contributed to our offensive struggles. Once again, the reason we brought in Lloyd and Randle El was because we felt like Patten couldn't stay healthy and we wanted to relieve the pressure off of Moss! You have yet to reply to both Longshot and Thinking Skins who provided legitimate reasoning for why Moss benefited from having Patten on the other side.

Stop exaggerating and putting words in my mouth because you can't respond with any semblance of intellectual honesty.

lol, everytime you have absolute 0 to say you pull this exaggeration nonsense. my post was simple. which one contributed to our passing offensive woes in the 2nd half:

brunell getting injured and being old

david patten going out.

i lol at david patten going out.

hey, ill just type "exaggeration" and a bunch of smiley faces so i dont have to actually answer any questions!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Already responded to that.

I didn't see that response.

[NewCliche21]

WTF are you guys talking about Brunell, Patten, Brady, and Breese for?

The topic is about JC.

If you don't have anything to say about the OP and the topic, move the hell on.

Skipped to the last page, read the first couple posts, and this was my exact thought process.

Some people just love the sight of their own avatars.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Yeah, a performance over 4 games, followed by regression in the playoffs, while the entire team is playing inspired. Only morons and people so obsessed with their own agenda and being right would try to discredit what this team did for Sean Taylor and lump the credit all on Collins instead in order to try and make their opinions on Campbell seem right. Pathetic.

But yes, let's completely ignore all the statistical evidence and instead listen to someone who can't even see how agenda-driven their own posting is. All that evidence is "subjective" and yours is completely unbiased. Ok. :doh:

we played 5 games after taylors death. we went 4-1. guess which one campbell started?

just saying.

[TheLongshot]

Todd Collins is the answer to your 1st question.

We had a hard time running the ball to the right, but pass protection was pretty decent that year. The sack numbers didn't change much once Collins went in there.

BTW, no one has yet proven I was wrong about 2005. For all the "lolz Patten" posts, no one has really given me an alternative explination for the passing game's severe drop in production from the first half of the season to the second.

[elkabong82]

Stats don't lie but can be manipulated for any purpose.

Unless you consider all stats and the game film matches your conclusions.

Just because you guys are used to picking and choosing stats to tell a story, instead of using them to reinforce a story, doesn't mean that's what everyone does.

And the OP already pointed out that the source has no allegiance to Campbell and they have no reason to manipulate stats. But please continue, this is actually getting amusing now

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Great, original stats Murf.

Those took some time to dig up, and to print. Thanks for doing so.

Here is the big picture though:

With the strong case that you just made about how bad the o-line was.....why didn't Vinny address it?

Because Orakpo was just too great to pass up? Please.

So throw away an entire season, just to get Orakpo? As opposed to going after an Oher, or another o-lineman later?

The organization still just has absolutely no idea how to build a winning football team.

It is so damn frustrating.

Just like you said, Orakpo indeed was too great to pass up.

[elkabong82]

we played 5 games after taylors death. we went 4-1. guess which one campbell started?

just saying.

If the best you can do is simplistic conjecture which doesn't factor in the other 10 players on the field on offense and the other 11 on defense, then just don't respond.