ES: Campbell haters beware

[thedevilhimself]

He has started 1.5 years. He has also had 4 different offenses with 4 different philosophies all together. He was on track to make the probowl last year until the OL broke down. He hadnt thrown an interception in like 5 or 6 games straight. Both Campbell and Portis were in Probowl' date=' and even MVP talks around the league. Including ESPN, FOXsports, and many others. [/quote']

The first 8 games last season NEVER HAPPENED .... there is no point trying to tell them about the first 8 games .... they aint listening ...

[eljeasel]

so collins increased his yardage, increased his TDs, and reduced his turnovers, and we won more games?

and remember that giants game was in the 40mph wind. eli set the record for most incompletions if i remember correctly. then proceeded to win the super bowl.

and yes, we agree, the offense ran better with collins. in that dink and dunk saunders offense collins ran it better than campbell did.

Oh, interesting you mention touchdowns since in that regard their stats are near identical - both about 1 per game. So really, Im not sure how you can say 15 yards was the key to wins. Maybe it was, maybe Im trying not being narrow minded enough. So lets leave a mark here, come back. 15 yards could have been the key to a title winning season.

Im going to bring in the some of the rest of that year and point out the problems with what youre saying.

Take the losing streak. Sucked, but Campbell was playing great.

270 yards per game, 1.5 TD per game, 1 INT per game, 1 fumble per game. (trivia points here: what sub 30 QB has nearly identical averages)

Only scoring 20 ppg though.

But when Collins gets in and throws for less TDs and about 50 yards per game, we win more? We score more? I guess the gut reaction would be maybe it was running game, improved defensive play (including some turnovers finally) or any number of factors.

Or you could just say there was a QB change and despite the drop in TD passes thrown and 50 less yards per game thrown it was all QB.

[eljeasel]

The team LOOKED different, like instantly different. Offense was on it's toes and they beat people, as in 4 games in a row. That and Todd averaged more per pass then Jason did he not? He beat him by 23% (6.5 y/a for J and 8.5 for Todd) and you are worried about Todd dumping them off?

I absolutely agree the offense looked better. But that run was a team effort. I will never dishonor what those men did by saying it was Collins's miracle arm.

[live4burgandyandgold]

There you have it. Nothing else needs to be said. Well done homer.

[SkinsSyco4Life]

:stfu: pointless ...

offer more than that son ...

[nfchamp1]

Let's just see JC in his second year in this offence. All the good QBs have played in the same offence for more than one year. Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are considered gems who had pretty good seasons while Campbell supposedly stunk.

Here are some surprising stats:

Matt Ryan - GP 16 PYDS 3440 PCT 61.1 TDs 16 INT 11 RATING 87.7

Joe Flacco - GP 16 PYDS 2971 PCT 60.0 TDs 14 INT 12 RATING 80.3

J. Campbell- GP 16 PYDS 3245 PCT 62.3 TDs 13 INT 6 RATING 84.3

[wvtbred]

I absolutely agree the offense looked better. But that run was a team effort. I will never dishonor what those men did by saying it was Collins's miracle arm.

That is just it, it isn't his arm it's the way he leads and the confidence it brings the players around him. He makes guys around him play better, period.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

"Drops" like "Tackles" are an unofficial stat. But FO uses very thorough game charters who keep track of these. So thorough that FO had over 300 mistakes in the official NFL play-by-play corrected by these charters and accepted by the NFL as revisions to their play-by-play.

The charters marked overthrown and underthrown as a separate category than defensed or dropped. As a result, if they list a pass as "dropped" it was not deemed to have been overthrown, underthrown or defensed.

Those who are incredulous about the stats should note that if the criterion used to arrive at those stats are consistent then the relative standing of the categories should be valid.

Take for instance the dropped balls, as long as the compilers of the stats use the same "way" to determine what a dropped pass is throughout the entire exercise then our guys dropped the most balls plain and simple.

Two GREAT posts, and far, FAR more significant than the detractors will ever realize or acknowledge. :applause:

Murf,

What you wrote was very subjectively written. You only referenced individual stats that only highlight Campbells non-knocks (or things that make him look good).

You should also post the DVOA and DYAR statistics from footballoutsiders.com. You only referenced half of the stats and only the ones that make Campbell look good. In the overall analysis of passes thrown he was 16th (DYAR) and 18th (DVOA) respectively.

And if anyone decides to actually look up all of the analysis of Campbell via footballoutsiders.com you will find this bolded sentence.

"he simple version: DYAR means a quarterback with more total value. DVOA means a quarterback with more value per play."

Even with all the positives in Campbells defense you mentioned... he was still in the bottom half of the league in DVOA and DAR.

"Bottom half" lol...since when is being #16 in the "bottom half"? For that matter, since when is being ranked #18 described as the "bottom half"? I'll tell you when...it's done so when you want to paint the stats in as negative a manner as possible. It would have been FAR more accurate to say "middle of the pack, of course...but "bottom half" gives the subtle connotation that the ranking was literally at the "bottom" of the rankings. Would Campbell moving up a mere spot to #15 have warranted you defining him as being in the "top half" of QBs? I highly doubt it.

Jesus I dont think anyone is saying JC is not of ANY fault. Why cant everyone stop exaggerating SO freaken much, and just see that the OP was just trying to show that there were other factors?

Christ.

Because for a select few here, it is absolutely essential that NOTHING positive be said about Jason Campbell. Nothing. Whatsoever. You know how ES has a profanity filter that replaces cuss words with asterixes? These guys have a Jason Campbell positive comment filter, which replaces any positive comment about Campbell with asinine negative spin lol.

In their world, it's impossible to say "Yeah, Campbell apparently did do well against zone blitzes, and did have too many of his passes dropped...still, he has too many questionable aspects about his game for me to feel he's the answer at QB." In their world, you can't make allowances for anything concerning JC's play and performance...Campbell is the cause of every dropped pass, is the cause of every sack, is the cause of every missed TD opportunity, is the cause of every line breakdown, is the cause for every woe on the offense. It's the doctrine of their religion. And Campbell is their anti-Christ.

[wvtbred]

Let's just see JC in his second year in this offence. All the good QBs have played in the same offence for more than one year. Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are considered gems who had pretty good seasons while Campbell supposedly stunk.

Here are some surprising stats:

Matt Ryan - GP 16 PYDS 3440 PCT 61.1 TDs 16 INT 11 RATING 87.7

Joe Flacco - GP 16 PYDS 2971 PCT 60.0 TDs 14 INT 12 RATING 80.3

J. Campbell- GP 16 PYDS 3245 PCT 62.3 TDs 13 INT 6 RATING 84.3

Let's see Jason compared to rookie QB's, interesting.

[ST is my boy]

There seems to be an effort to promote positive Jason Campbell related threads. That was my point and opinion.

Campbell haters beware...

Campbell stands tall...

Campbell encouraged by Favre....

Campbell talks tough...

Just a few examples.

And what is wrong with that? They were articles being written about the quarterback of the Washington Redskins. I see nothing wrong with promoting positive thinking about a player on the team.

[SoCalSkins]

Almost there, almost to critical analysis. Here, allow me:

You suggest we look at the points scored. Ill do you one better, Ill look at the performance of the QB

Campbell - 207 YPG, ~1 TD per game, ~1 INT per game, 1 fumble per game, and of course 1.6 sacks per game

Collins - 222 ypg, ~1TD per game, 0 INTs, 1 fumble per game, and 1.75 sacks per game

HOLY CRAP, 15 more yards from the passing game. Thats the key. Had nothing to do with the dreaded "dump offs" Collins threw for 60% of his passes. Or wow, look at how well the defense started playing, giving up 5 less ppg. Maybe you could say Collins not throwing as many INTs was the reason we started giving up 5 less ppg?

Especially that 8 for 25 166 yard clinic Collins put on in NY. Totally not a team rallying after burying their fallen teamate.

Ill tell you what though. If you were saying the offense ran better with Collins at the helm Id agree. When all your offense consists of is dink and dunk, obviously you need an highly accurate QB who knows where to throw. Collins is that guy.

Collins played 3 full games. His numbers against the Bears would likely increase had he started.

having said that, the numbers that are critical are the W/L numbers and points scored by the team. In all of 2007 and 2008, Campbell faced 8 teams that finished with 10 or more wins. The Redskins were 0-8 in those games with worse than a 1 to 2 point differential between the Skins score and the opponent. Todd Collins in the same situation, was 2-0 with a 3 to 1 point differential in favor of the Skins.

Blowing out elite teams versus being blown out by them. Pretty simple. The point here is not that Collins is a world beater. Todd has 80% less NFL starting experience than Campbell. Todd had never started a game for Saunders prior to joining the Redskins. The point is that Jason Campbell can't even perform better than a career backup. He even regressed last year, The Skins only averaged 7.5 points a game in the 4 games against teams that finished with 10 or more wins. 30 total points in 4 games and people still defend the guy. The Skins with Collins averaged 25.5 a game against teams in that category the year before.

People who believe that Jason Campbell will succeed with the Redskins, need to base their arguments on emotion and gut feelings or because they like his personality, mustache or other superstitious reason. If you are trying to defend him based on his past play utilizing statistics, you are being dishonest with yourselves.

Simply admit you have an irrational hopethat he will pan out. We are are Skins fans and appreciate irrationality, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But let's at least have intellectual honesty. Please don't embarrass yourselves by trying to defend something that doesn't exist as a fact, because you are lying to yourselves and everyone on this board.

[thedevilhimself]

The team LOOKED different, like instantly different. Offense was on it's toes and they beat people, as in 4 games in a row. That and Todd averaged more per pass then Jason did he not? He beat him by 23% (6.5 y/a for J and 8.5 for Todd) and you are worried about Todd dumping them off?

. Yes the O looked different . Portis looked different . Portis lost a life long friend, a guy who he lobbied for over Winslow to a senseless stupid act . Postis was playing lights out . Moss another of Taylors close friends came back and was playing well, we finally got some stability on the offensive line ...but you know what ? The offense didn't win us a game in that end stint of the 2007 season they did what was necessary . The D was on fire .

Thats what makes it sickening when people go on and on about Collins being the difference maker . He wasn't . Read Doughty in that Giants game was playing like his boots were on fire racking up 10 solo tackles Springs and Landry started making plays the D was fearsome .

When the O was asked to put up points ( and not many ) against the Seahawks and then the kick of God putting the ball on the 19 yard line of the Seahawks and we came away with NOTHING . A drive that could have won the game there and then and we come away with NOTHING ... the Saviour Collins didn;t look so good in that game ...

[wvtbred]

. Yes the O looked different . Portis looked different . Portis lost a life long friend, a guy who he lobbied for over Winslow to a senseless stupid act . Postis was playing lights out . Moss another of Taylors close friends came back and was playing well, we finally got some stability on the offensive line ...but you know what ? The offense didn't win us a game in that end stint of the 2007 season they did what was necessary . The D was on fire .

Thats what makes it sickening when people go on and on about Collins being the difference maker . He wasn't . Read Doughty in that Giants game was playing like his boots were on fire racking up 10 solo tackles Springs and Landry started making plays the D was fearsome .

When the O was asked to put up points ( and not many ) against the Seahawks and then the kick of God putting the ball on the 19 yard line of the Seahawks and we came away with NOTHING . A drive that could have won the game there and then and we come away with NOTHING ... the Saviour Collins didn;t look so good in that game ...

Funny you guys love to use stats except when it's used against you.

It isn't that Todd is that good it's that Jason was holding the team back IMO. That has been my point all along. You REALLY want to win then Todd should be the starter.

I think SoCalSkins said it best:

"People who believe that Jason Campbell will succeed with the Redskins, need to base their arguments on emotion and gut feelings or because they like his personality, mustache or other superstitious reason. If you are trying to defend him based on his past play utilizing statistics, you are being dishonest with yourselves."

[eljeasel]

That is just it, it isn't his arm it's the way he leads and the confidence it brings the players around him. He makes guys around him play better, period.

Or he didnt throw turnovers, was more accurate, and knew where to put the ball?

[RocketCitySkins]

if your QB isnt good enough to pass in the redzone because he cant "squeeze passes" then he shouldnt be playing QB. cant just get to the redzone and run 3 times. titans got away with it last year with white and johnson, i highly doubt theyll repeat that again.

JC had the 3rd highest qbr from 10 yard line with 104.2.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=112

[wvtbred]

JC had the 3rd highest qbr from 10 yard line with 104.2.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=112

and we averaged 16.8 points a game? See this is exactly what I mean by stats can be manipulated. Just score and lead that is the only stats I want.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

And what is wrong with that? They were articles being written about the quarterback of the Washington Redskins. I see nothing wrong with promoting positive thinking about a player on the team.

Sad, isn't it?

[RocketCitySkins]

and we averaged 16.8 points a game? See this is exactly what I mean by stats can be manipulated. Just score and lead that is the only stats I want.

Maybe we should have thrown the ball more then. We ran in the redzone more than we threw.

BTW, how did I manipulate anything. It is what it is and I gave the link to back it up.

[SkinsSyco4Life]

And what is wrong with that? They were articles being written about the quarterback of the Washington Redskins. I see nothing wrong with promoting positive thinking about a player on the team.

[DCDiesel44]

Wow, great read. I have faith in our WR group this year compared to last year's group. Thomas and Kelly are nipping at Moss and ARE's heels, Mitchell and Eloi are doing the same to Thomas and Kelly. All of this competition and talent only make players better. As far as our offensive line goes, I have faith, but I'm not nearly as confident as I am with our receivers. I don't really have any problems with our starters, it's the depth guys that I worry about. It's wrong to just assume that guys are going to get injured just because it happened last year. But after what happened last year it's hard not to worry about it happening again. That being said, we've improved in both areas but lets hope and pray that no matter what happens this season, we NEED to snag an O-lineman with next year's first-rounder.

[wvtbred]

Maybe we should have thrown the ball more then. We ran in the redzone more than we threw.

BTW, how did I manipulate anything. It is what it is and I gave the link to back it up.

It's not just you it's anyone who uses stats. Stats are too easily manipulated and abused. Don't believe me think about any election and how each side uses stats to get votes.

[PCS]

How were you able to father a 56 year old daddy?.....

There seems to be an effort to promote positive Jason Campbell related threads. That was my point and opinion.

Campbell haters beware...

Campbell stands tall...

Campbell encouraged by Favre....

Campbell talks tough...

Just a few examples.

Why not put them all in The Camp Of Campbell? ( Forgot about that one )

Actually,Gortiz got it right. You should have at least put the quoted explanation in with that first post. I've warned people in here about drive bys. That one qualified. As for "an effort to promote positive Jason Campbell related threads", there is none. There's no time and no need among other reasons,(like we have better things to do with our time and no agenda). All of those you quoted were exactly what ST is my boy said they were. As you should know by now,those are typically not merged in to other threads,(regardless of how those threads can be hijacked and sent in to another direction. Something we have been trying to curtail recently I might add). Certainly not the camp thread. That thread and its counterpart serve other purposes. This one qualifies to be put in to the same category as the other article threads. If you,(and/or others),can find articles that take Jason to task or something along those lines,feel free to post those as individual threads. We do tend to be equal opportunity around here with things like that.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

1. Campbell’s receivers led the league in dropped passes with 39. We repeat – Redskins receivers dropped more passes than anyone else in football in 2008.

2. Receivers Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El both ranked in the top 10 in the NFL in dropped passes. Moss ranked second with 12 (behind only Cleveland’s Braylon Edwards with 15), while Randle El was tied for ninth with nine drops.

3. Running back Clinton Portis only had six drops. Compared to Moss and Randle El that seems okay, but he was actually third in the league in percentage of dropped passes (17 percent).

What's not taken into account with those stats is the inaccuracy of JC's throws, yes when a receiver is constantly put into an awkward position to catch a pass with defenders closing in on them, or all over them because JC can't hit a receiver in stride, yes you will have drops.

That article is just another example how individuals can actually find excuses to convince themselves that JC is a good QB, how about throwing all the stats out the window and just watch his play on the field, it really tells the whole story.

After the Giant game in which JC will do absolutly nothing as usual, these excuses will finally come to an end.

Prepare yourselves for the opener because we will see a repeat of last seasons opener.

[1972FAN]

I want to see what he does now, not yesterday, look forward to Saturday , past is the past, moved on,,, another Woe is me,, making excuses forum.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What's not taken into account with those stats is the inaccuracy of JC's throws' date=' yes when a receiver is constantly put into an awkward position to catch a pass with defenders closing in on them, or all over them because JC can't hit a receiver in stride, yes you will have drops.[/quote']

Already taken into account in this thread...as long as every QB is being measured by the SAME criteria, it hardly matters. So, yes, the "innaccuracy" of a QB's throws are indeed taken into account, in one form or another.

I love how people are willing to simply discount statistics compiled by an unbiased source simply because it doesn't fit their preconceived perceptions. I would love for anyone who feels the way Hammer'in Hog does to actually disprove the stats being presented instead of just mindlessly blowing them off.