ES: Campbell haters beware

[TRUBLUFAN]

The most confusing and nauseating part of this whole argumement, is that more heated versions of the Campbell defense theory take place in house. I have never seen a QB improve every single season of his career and still face the scrutiny that JC does. BTW did any of you "Haters" happen to see the game against the Ravens? Campbell, O-Line and co moved the ball pretty easily.Even the Ravens broadcasters remarked on how well the Skins moved down the field and pleaded w/ fans not to worry about there D. So, a Raven - friendly broadcaster can appreciate a Redskins offensive, but a "Fan" of the Skins can't see anything but bad??? Hagans dropped a pass during the 1st drive that Campbell got to him in the middle of a Ravens Blitz. The ball hits him in both of his hands and he drops it! Campbell' s fault, right???? I will never understand why some people continue to classify themselves as fans...

I have said it 1,000 times and I will say 1,000 more: Jason Campbell will lead us back to glory...

HAIL

[DGREENHULK]

Jesus I dont think anyone is saying JC is not of ANY fault. Why cant everyone stop exaggerating SO freaken much, and just see that the OP was just trying to show that there were other factors?

Christ.

Thank You!....JC and I don't mean Campbel....

[wvtbred]

BTW did any of you "Haters" happen to see the game against the Ravens? Campbell, O-Line and co moved the ball pretty easily.Even the Ravens broadcasters remarked on how well the Skins moved down the field and pleaded w/ fans not to worry about there D. So, a Raven - friendly broadcaster can appreciate a Redskins offensive, but a "Fan" of the Skins can't see anything but bad??? Hagans dropped a pass during the 1st drive that Campbell got to him in the middle of a Ravens Blitz. The ball hits him in both of his hands and he drops it! Campbell' s fault, right???? I will never understand why some people continue to classify themselves as fans...

I have said it 1,000 times and I will say 1,000 more: Jason Campbell will lead us back to glory...

HAIL

We have been through this multiple times including a picture of a wide open Hagans up in the air with only the finger tips on the ball. Maybe searching some can help.

As for moving the ball down the field I would say moving "down" the field means getting over the 50 and actually going down hill which Jason did not do., Todd did though. Jason's first completion was a 3 yard dump with the oline and RB gaining the rest. Other was to ARE low where it should be but I watched it 3 times and still don't think ARE had it. The pass to Cooley was good.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I know a heck of a lot more about the game than they do!

Any clown who actually makes a case for JC being extremely accurate is someone who knows absolutly nothing about the game of football.

JC is accurate.....on certain types of passes.

But there are other passes (slants for example) where he struggles.

I think Jason's realtively high completion percentage makes him look more accurate than he actually is. :2cents:

He misses wide open receivers far too much for my tastes.

IMO, its his slow release which really hinders him...though he has gotten a little better in that regard.

[gortiz]

I think part of it has to do with the QB recognizing the defense at the LOS pre-snap

If he correctly identifies what the D is doing, makes the right adjustment, the ball should be out of his hand VERY QUICK to a very open WR.

Look how quickly Brady gets rid of the ball to a wide open WR. He doesn't stand back in the pocket for very long

man ...when you see brady plays its a hand full of highlights on espn ...you see maybe 4-5 of his 30+ passing attempts.

i've seen brady sit behind his line so long he could freaking paint a detailed portrait of the defense in front him.

[JaimeDeCurry]

man ...when you see brady plays its a hand full of highlights on espn ...you see maybe 4-5 of his 30+ passing attempts.

i've seen brady sit behind his line so long he could freaking paint a detailed portrait of the defense in front him.

Tell me about it. My wife is a Pats fan, and everytime we watch them play, my thought process goes like this:

"Oh man he's gonna get sacked! Why is he holding onto the ball for so long?! Come on, man, get rid of it, you're going to get rocked! Get rid of the ball!"

Then Brady completes it to his 4th read on the play, and I realize that the reason he had so much time is because I'm not watching the Redskins.

[TomE]

He misses wide open receivers far too much for my tastes.

Gotta' agree with this.

IMO, its his slow release which really hinders him...though he has gotten a little better in that regard.

I'm still trying to get a handle on what exactly defines a slow release.

I understand that the ball should go out at the end of his drop in an ideal situation but is his "windup" too slow, is he taking too long to get the ball out once he decides, or is it a function of time?

Looking over some of the games from last year, Campbell's time from snap to release in most cases I've seen have been on par with the opponent's highly touted QB (Roethlisberger, Romo sits to pee, etc.)

Is a slow release a "see and fire" timing, I do see QB’s appear quicker but I would think that this ability would affect the timing of a play more than accuracy.

NM- did some lookup and quick release refers to the "see and fire" timing. "Quick release is the time it takes for the quarterback to decide where to throw the ball and throwing it"

[bluecrab]

What the FO thinks of Campbell is beside the point, because they don't make the call if Campbell plays or not. That's Zorn's call, and Zorn has plenty of confidence in Campbell.

Can you say that with absolute authority? I think not. We don't know who'calling the shots on this team. It looked as if Zorn was forced fed JC last season (only my opinion, as I'm not in the FO). The FO openly tried to trade JC to other teams and acquire 2 different QB's but...no takers.

A lot of people on this board think JC will miraculously become this All Pro QB who will lead us to the Super Bowl. Maybe you know something about JC that GM's in the NFL just don't get. After all, they do this for a living and watching the Redskins get turned down for trade offers for JC during the off season tells me that they don't see much in JC as a starting QB and yet, we keep giving this guy 2nd chances. I've never seen anything like this.

I hope they play him and the starters for a full quarter tomorrow. This is where we will get a true gauge of JC and see if he's capable of being our starting QB or giving us the same sorry to mediocre performance that he's delivered the last 3 years.

[Mahons21]

Tell me about it. My wife is a Pats fan, and everytime we watch them play, my thought process goes like this:

"Oh man he's gonna get sacked! Why is he holding onto the ball for so long?! Come on, man, get rid of it, you're going to get rocked! Get rid of the ball!"

Then Brady completes it to his 4th read on the play, and I realize that the reason he had so much time is because I'm not watching the Redskins.

-Brady is arguably the best QB of all time, lets stop acting like his line does everything for him... He is deadly accurate, consistently makes correct adjustments on the line, and plays with a level on intensity that matches Ray Lewis

-Why must we try to bash the best QB's in the NFL to make ourselves feel better about our situation?

[Botched]

Tell me about it. My wife is a Pats fan, and everytime we watch them play, my thought process goes like this:

"Oh man he's gonna get sacked! Why is he holding onto the ball for so long?! Come on, man, get rid of it, you're going to get rocked! Get rid of the ball!"

Then Brady completes it to his 4th read on the play, and I realize that the reason he had so much time is because I'm not watching the Redskins.

Did you watch the Patriots last year when they had the same line and a different QB? Notice anything different?

[NewCliche21]

No the facts apparently don't matter . Only subjective oppinion matters apparently . Thing is when I watched Campbell I saw a lot of drops from receivers hands ...sometimes they were not the most perfect throws but also not the most demanding of recpetions either ..

Are we saying our receivers are so crappy they nead picture perfect throws every time to allow them to make simple catches look simple ?

Also another thing I saw which apparently was missed but the hang em and flog em brigade was the amount of pressure Campbell got on nearly every single drop back . Sometimes the defender would be past the OL before Campbell was on his third drop . Some of the pressure came because he held the ball too long ....but are we saying the OL is so old and crappy it needs a QB who has such a quick release he can get the ball 50 yards down the field before his third step on a three step drop .

The facts are presented to you in a nice INDEPENDENT way in the football outsiders almanac, something that has been published year after year and because the facts do not meet with your preconcieved ideas then they must be wrong ...

In other news the world is not apparently flat ..

. . . I'm in complete agreement with the OP. I was saying that those who argue with it are just ingoring FACTS by reputable sources. As per usual. As per always.

Let me append the post you quoted:

ExtremeSkins: Where the facts, and literacy, don't matter.

[NewCliche21]

Did you watch the Patriots last year when they had the same line and a different QB? Notice anything different?

Well, not really, no. They're still a great team and have a great offensive line who went 11-5.

2007 was an oh-so-close perfect storm.

[apiah]

Some things that are put in this article are half true and half false. Campbells accuracy was part of the issue when recievers dropped balls and many times he made his recievers jump unecessarily to catch a ball and to add on he also did not put the ball on the money all the time. But his recievers definetly did fail him as well.

[Mahons21]

Well, not really, no. They're still a great team and have a great offensive line who went 11-5.

-That "great offensive line" allowed 9 more sacks than the Redskins line and certainly didn't have a 1500 yd back... So I take it you regard Campbell's line as more than great?

[Botched]

Well, not really, no. They're still a great team and have a great offensive line who went 11-5.

2007 was an oh-so-close perfect storm.

I had a long response typed out but decided it wasn't even worth it, so I'll just quote you.

ExtremeSkins: Where the facts don't matter.

[Going Commando]

Great, original stats Murf.

Those took some time to dig up, and to print. Thanks for doing so.

Here is the big picture though:

With the strong case that you just made about how bad the o-line was.....why didn't Vinny address it?

Because Orakpo was just too great to pass up? Please.

So throw away an entire season, just to get Orakpo? As opposed to going after an Oher, or another o-lineman later?

The organization still just has absolutely no idea how to build a winning football team.

It is so damn frustrating.

I disagree. You are proposing a strategy of drafting based on knee jerk reactions to temporary needs. That is not a successful plan for long term success. You take the blue-chippers when they are available and that is what we did with Orakpo. And it isn't as if having a pass rusher wasn't a glaring short term need for us also.

Oher could be a good player one day but there is a reason he fell that late in the first. There were a lot of concerns about his mental ability to adjust to the game and they were well-founded. He is also very raw and he's a far better run blocker than pass blocker at this point in his development. He is by no means a short term solution. Of all the top tier tackles from the past offseason, Oher by far needs the most time to adjust to the NFL. He's got elite physical tools but it will take a few seasons for him to live up to his draft spot--especially if we'd taken him at 13. Would you have rather grabbed him and had him sit behind Heyer for a season or two?

I think almost everyone here and nearly all of the draftnik community agrees that Orakpo was a far better prospect than Oher was and that it was absolutely a no-brainer for us to draft him. We got the best defensive end in the draft at pick 13. Possibly the best defensive prospect, certainly the best after Curry. That's outstanding good fortune. Be appreciative and stop whining for once.

[TheLongshot]

Can you say that with absolute authority? I think not. We don't know who'calling the shots on this team. It looked as if Zorn was forced fed JC last season (only my opinion, as I'm not in the FO). The FO openly tried to trade JC to other teams and acquire 2 different QB's but...no takers.

Probably part of the reason Zorn was hired was because he felt he could make Campbell into something. I'm sure that was probably one of the prerequisites. So no, I don't think he was forced fed Campbell.

Also, everything about him points to him being a straight shooter. I doubt he would be so enthusiastic in naming him the starter if he didn't have trust in his abilities.

As for the end, the team never openly tried to trade Campbell. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't have been included in a deal for Cutler, if it had gotten that far, but it never really did. I also don't think it would have been a sure thing that they would have gotten rid of Campbell if they had gotten Sanchez. Getting Sanchez certainly wouldn't be a "win now" move and I wouldn't see him starting right off the bat.

A lot of people on this board think JC will miraculously become this All Pro QB who will lead us to the Super Bowl. Maybe you know something about JC that GM's in the NFL just don't get. After all, they do this for a living and watching the Redskins get turned down for trade offers for JC during the off season tells me that they don't see much in JC as a starting QB and yet, we keep giving this guy 2nd chances. I've never seen anything like this.

I hope they play him and the starters for a full quarter tomorrow. This is where we will get a true gauge of JC and see if he's capable of being our starting QB or giving us the same sorry to mediocre performance that he's delivered the last 3 years.

Again, Campbell was never on the open market. We have no clue what his actual trade value really is. As for his value, he still gives the Redskins the best chance to win in the near term, despite what you think of him.

[Going Commando]

Is it just me or do win losses qualify as team stats and not QB stats. Yet they are being used here to attack Campbell as if he alone was responsible for those wins or losses. If you want to statistically evaluate Campbell, why not use the detailed stat compilations FBO has painstakingly gathered that detail his every in-game pass attempt and whether it was a success or failure due directly to him or his receivers or protection? I mean if you are trying to single him out as a bad player and attack him individually, wouldn't that be the route you would go?

Oh wait...

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

I disagree. You are proposing a strategy of drafting based on knee jerk reactions to temporary needs. That is not a successful plan for long term success. You take the blue-chippers when they are available and that is what we did with Orakpo. And it isn't as if having a pass rusher wasn't a glaring short term need for us also.

Oher could be a good player one day but there is a reason he fell that late in the first. There were a lot of concerns about his mental ability to adjust to the game and they were well-founded. He is also very raw and he's a far better run blocker than pass blocker at this point in his development. He is by no means a short term solution. Of all the top tier tackles from the past off season, Oher by far needs the most time to adjust to the NFL. He's got elite physical tools but it will take a few seasons for him to live up to his draft spot--especially if we'd taken him at 13. Would you have rather grabbed him and had him sit behind Heyer for a season or two?

I think almost everyone here and nearly all of the draftnik community agrees that Orakpo was a far better prospect than Oher was and that it was absolutely a no-brainer for us to draft him. We got the best defensive end in the draft at pick 13. Possibly the best defensive prospect, certainly the best after Curry. That's outstanding good fortune. Be appreciative and stop whining for once.

Sounds like you are the one proposing short term solutions? Oher a short term solution? Can't figure that one out?

Knee jerk reaction? So you are saying that because our O-line is shot, drafting O-lineman is a knee jerk reaction? I guess the same guys will just get better because they are Redskins, that's pretty much how it works around here isn't it? If JC played on any other team in the NFL he and his team would be the laughing stock on this board, but because a player is a Skin that makes him special.

Oher was drafted by a team with a highly proven draft record, not to mention an already very good O-line. So for you to just brush aside Oher's abilities as an after thought is very ignorant, especially for a team which has a huge need on the O-line, only to bolster an already top 4 defense.

I want to know how you know Orakpo is the best end in the draft? How do you know he is NFL material, yet Oher who was a beast in college may not be, or at best a project? Sounds like you have very selective thinking.

[Going Commando]

So according to your stats, JC, Drew Brees and Jay Cutler all played equally well last year.

Haha. In a backhanded way you've defended Campbell successfully. Wins/Losses are probably the single most superficial stats one can use to evaluate a QB. Especially a young QB with less than 50 starts that's been a part of a lot of organizational turnover.

And then the ridiculous arguments for Collins with his 5 starts? That's a completely unsubstantial sample size for proving anything.

Whatever. Thank goodness none of us are in charge of anything.

[DirtyGunz8]

Thanx Murf. Can we post this on the Cult for Colt?!

[thedevilhimself]

. . . I'm in complete agreement with the OP. I was saying that those who argue with it are just ingoring FACTS by reputable sources. As per usual. As per always.

Let me append the post you quoted:

ExtremeSkins: Where the facts, and literacy, don't matter.

Lol i am sorry my bad ...it must be err ermm.....back to the "robert red hat" books for me :doh:

[Going Commando]

Sounds like you are the one proposing short term solutions? Oher a short term solution? Can't figure that one out?

Knee jerk reaction? So you are saying that because our O-line is shot' date=' drafting O-lineman is a knee jerk reaction? I guess the same guys will just get better because they are Redskins, that's pretty much how it works around here isn't it? If JC played on any other team in the NFL he and his team would be the laughing stock on this board, but because a player is a Skin that makes him special.

[/quote']

The knee-jerk reaction is handcuffing yourself into picking a lesser prospect at a position of immediate need when you have a better prospect available. And in this case, the better prospect also happened to play a position of need for us. That is what apparently you and McD5 are arguing for and that is an unsound drafting strategy.

McD5 implied with his post that he thought Oher would have been a short term solution for our problem at RT and I was saying that that is not the case at all. I followed the predraft coverage and evaluation of the prospects very closely this offseason. There was a very large consensus that Oher was a physically gifted tackle prospect that needed several seasons to learn the game before he'd be ready to take over as a starting offensive tackle. Fortunately for him, he landed on the Ravens who have enough talent on their line to let him sit and develop if they want to. That wouldn't have been the case here. And besides, would we have been patient enough to let him sit on the bench behind Heyer while we struggled this year?

McD5 thought Oher could have been a short term solution for our OL this season. Not only would he not have been, he has worse long term value to our team than Orakpo does because Orakpo is a much better prospect than Oher is.

Oher was drafted by a team with a highly proven draft record, not to mention an already very good O-line. So for you to just brush aside Oher's abilities as an after thought is very ignorant, especially for a team which has a huge need on the O-line, only to bolster an already top 4 defense.

I want to know how you know Orakpo is the best end in the draft? How do you know he is NFL material, yet Oher who was a beast in college may not be, or at best a project? Sounds like you have very selective thinking.

My opinions are largely formed by the opinions of professional scouts in the draftnik community and I think they were reinforced by the way the draft played out. Oher was a blue-chip tackle who, this time last year, most people graded as a top 5 pick. But his season and pre-draft evaluation were disappointing enough that he became the consensus fourth tackle in a moderately talented class while Orakpo became the #1 defensive end in a deeper defensive end class. Obviously teams earmark their own favorite prospects and make mistakes which is what I think happened when Buffalo took Aaron Maybin over Orakpo. But the consensus among a lot of respected draft evaluation sites was that Orakpo was the best end prospect in the class and most people gave him a top 5 to top 8 grade. Oher was not close to that.

As for how I know Orakpo is NFL material and Oher is a project, I don't. No one does, but we use projections and analysis of skillset to inform our evaluations. It's the foundation of the draft. And everything we've heard coming out of camp has been a positive report of how NFL ready Orakpo is so that reinforces what a lot of different sources already suspected. Orakpo is intelligent, coachable, and incredibly hard working and has elite physical tools and a well developed speed-rushing skill. It makes sense for him to do well early.

[rgibbs]

Reading these stats, the equivalent of it in baseball would be a pitcher going out and throwing a great game but he can't get any run support behind him. At the end of the season, the win-loss record doesn't always tell the true story.

[nfchamp1]

Compared to players the first year in a new offense .