ES: Campbell haters beware

[MustangSteve]

I actually think we will be better at the O-line position this year if they can stay healthy. We didn't get to play a few who will end up being good linemen because of injuries. Jason will also have a faster release this season because of finally being in the same system for more than a year.

That means we will be a much better team this season, and much faster off the line of scrimmage. It also means we will clobber Dallas both games this season, and us fans will have a ball tormenting all those cowgirl trolls who trespass in our message board. This is going to be a fun year fans, and always remember that Dallas sucks! :dallasuck

[Thinking Skins]

This is a GREAT writeup. I would be more interested in how they define a ‘drop’ and some other terms used in the analysis, but seeing these stats makes a compelling argument as to why Campbell should be the starting QB for the Skins.

But as we know, the best way to shut people up is to perform on the field. Hopefully there’s no question after this season of whether or not Campbell is a good QB.

BTW, as a point of curiosity, I wonder how others like Orton, Cutler and Quinn compare in these numbers?

[BlackBush]

^^^

good point warpath

[eljeasel]

Any serious football fan should buy the FO Almanac. You may not always agree with some of their methodologies or even data collection, but at least they're intellectually honest about what they try to present.

Here's another fun Campbell stat for the "he's dumb/can't read a defense" crowd.

Campbell's numbers against the straight up blitz are better than people credit him for or realize.

[Botched]

I have seen people say countless times how Jason has such a poor (and short), WR group to work with, and now the same people are saying 35 year old 5'10 David Patten is a force that commands respect from opposing defenses. Too funny

[MonkFan8]

Any serious football fan should buy the FO Almanac. You may not always agree with some of their methodologies or even data collection, but at least they're intellectually honest about what they try to present.

Here's another fun Campbell stat for the "he's dumb/can't read a defense" crowd.

Might get lost in the shuffle, but that's an awfully cool stat. Thanks.

[TSO]

The other reason Moss was so successful in 05 was due to the unknown of our offense. Nobody was quite sure how we would come out and attack with Gibbs 2 (other thanthe obvious smashmouth running game). Doesn't that sound farmiliar (first 8 games last season). Once defenses got a hold of some game-tape in 05 they game planned to take Moss out, it had nothing to due with Patten getting injured but more to do with defenses catching up with what we were trying to do thus making changes accordingly.

I agree that defensive coordinators started understanding what to do against us and that contributed to our offensive struggles in the passing game as time went on, but you're wrong saying it had nothing to do with Patten getting injured. When you say "they game planned to take Moss out", you've got to understand that game plan was much easier to apply with no viable threat on the other side of Moss. That was the biggest reason we went out and got Randle El and Lloyd... we knew how much more difficult it was to get our passing game going once Patten was out, and the likes of Taylor Jacobs was playing on the other side of Moss. Gibbs even said it directly if I recall correctly.

That being said, numerous factors as usual were at play here, and minimizing even one of them would be denying the truth. Another factor was Brunell's knee injury during the Giants game that year. He was just not the same afterwards.

[CrypticVillain]

BTW, as a point of curiosity, I wonder how others like Orton, Cutler and Quinn compare in these numbers?

That is a good question. And just for kick we should throw P.Manning and Brees in that pairing too.

[bobzmuda]

Not to question the validity of one site over another, but I wonder just what gage each uses to define "dropped passes"; as a few have our wide outs around the middle of the road in the league, along with the Post, as has been referenced already, whilst FO now have us at #1.

I forget which sites did, but I'm sure someone will remember as they were frequently put up during the Cutler trade threads.

Hail.

"Drops" like "Tackles" are an unofficial stat. But FO uses very thorough game charters who keep track of these. So thorough that FO had over 300 mistakes in the official NFL play-by-play corrected by these charters and accepted by the NFL as revisions to their play-by-play.

The charters marked overthrown and underthrown as a separate category than defensed or dropped. As a result, if they list a pass as "dropped" it was not deemed to have been overthrown, underthrown or defensed.

[Botched]

Any serious football fan should buy the FO Almanac. You may not always agree with some of their methodologies or even data collection, but at least they're intellectually honest about what they try to present.

Here's another fun Campbell stat for the "he's dumb/can't read a defense" crowd.

I'm pretty sure I can find an obscure stat or two where Jake Delhomme was ranked #1 last year. Doesn't mean he was any good though.

[TSO]

I have seen people say countless times how Jason has such a poor (and short), WR group to work with, and now the same people are saying 35 year old 5'10 David Patten is a force that commands respect from opposing defenses. Too funny

Yay! More exaggerating! :wavetowel

Where did anyone say that he is now? We were talking back in 05 when we just picked him up from a Super Bowl champion Pats team he helped contribute to, and yes, he did command respect. No, he wasn't a no.1 or even the best no.2 WR... but he was a guy that could beat you if you ignored him. I can't believe we're still discussing this! :doh:

Here's the respect some people who have at least an elementary knowledge of football gave Patten:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=198360&highlight=david+patten

^^That link is to a thread for the best undrafted players in the NFL. Guess who is at WR?

And these from another thread:

Patten while he didnt have many catches here was instrumental in getting a few pass Interferances called for the skins wich was very helpfull. He was also the guy that insisted to Gibbs to go deep to Moss in the first Dallas game on the first time when we were down 13-0

2007

David Patten: 16 games. 54 receptions. 792 yards. 3 TDs. 14.7 ypc.

Santana Moss: 14 games. 61 receptions. 808 yards. 3 TDs. 13.2 ypc.

Antwaan Randle-El: 13 games. 51 receptipns. 728 yards. 1 TD. 14.3 ypc.

Patten wasn't bad here anyway...he was just never healthy. It just wasn't meant to be' date=' but that doesn't mean that he was a bad player. It also doesn't mean that Gibbs didn't 'use him right'. Hard to use a guy the right way when he's on the bench in street clothes all the time.

Of course, one could argue that he was placed on IR prematurely and that you could absolutely blame Gibbs for. In any event, it's good to see that he's resurrected his career as he seems like a decent guy. Hopefully the success doesn't continue here in Week 2. I have a feeling the Skins will need that win.[/quote']

[TheLongshot]

I have seen people say countless times how Jason has such a poor (and short), WR group to work with, and now the same people are saying 35 year old 5'10 David Patten is a force that commands respect from opposing defenses. Too funny

Why don't you actually look at the numbers and explain the signifigant dropoff in the passing game after he got hurt. I don't see another one that makes sense. It seems pretty obvious that it had a huge effect on the passing game, which lead Gibbs to focus on the running game for the rest of the season.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

SO what are you saying about the YPC? Because hes become a release valve hes got lower YPC numbers? What?

his receptions were high because hes a release valve. his average went down because his dump offs went up.

more short catches for shorter yards = lower average per catch.

[bobzmuda]

I'm pretty sure I can find an obscure stat or two where Jake Delhomme was ranked #1 last year. Doesn't mean he was any good though.

I agree with that.

But of course you didn't disagree with my statement, but instead made some other unconnected argument. I assume you agree that folks that fall in to the "he is dumb/can't read a defense" category are misinformed.

Thanks.

[Botched]

Yay! More exaggerating! :wavetowel

Where did anyone say that he is now? We were talking back in 05 when we just picked him up from a Super Bowl champion Pats team he helped contribute to, and yes, he did command respect. No, he wasn't a no.1 or even the best no.2 WR... but he was a guy that could beat you if you ignored him. I can't believe we're still discussing this! :doh:

Inconsistent much? You go from saying that Patten was so good that he pulled double coverage off Moss to saying he's not even a great #2? I'm pretty sure ARE or any other WR is fully capable of beating a defense that ignores them.

If you are going to insult people who disagree with you, you better be ready to defend your position.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I have seen people say countless times how Jason has such a poor (and short), WR group to work with, and now the same people are saying 35 year old 5'10 David Patten is a force that commands respect from opposing defenses. Too funny

stop exaggerating, david patton was a juggernaut. it had nothing to do with brunell being injured and wearing down at age 30 something that season.

we need david patten back if moss is ever gonna put up 1400 again. LOL

and newsflash for all of you: moss is not double covered on every single play. some of you make it sound like moss has two guys glued to him at all times. i seem to remember some of those miracle throws that brunell had in dallas where two guys were on moss and he beat them both. but theres too much risk involved in there, better check down to betts and be safe!

[GibbsFactor]

Murph, everything I can find on the intertubez say that Santana only had 8 drops. How did the FO Almanac qualify the drops?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

patten has only produced on two teams with these QBs:

tom brady

drew brees

total shocker, i know.

[TSO]

stop exaggerating, david patton was a juggernaut. it had nothing to do with brunell being injured and wearing down at age 30 something that season.

we need david patten back if moss is ever gonna put up 1400 again. LOL

and newsflash for all of you: moss is not double covered on every single play. some of you make it sound like moss has two guys glued to him at all times. i seem to remember some of those miracle throws that brunell had in dallas where two guys were on moss and he beat them both. but theres too much risk involved in there, better check down to betts and be safe!

Lol, my "Yay more exaggerating" response just a few posts above this was premature to say the least. Yes, that's exactly what we're saying about Patten BLC! :thumbsup:

Reading Comprehension 101 beckons.

[TSO]

Inconsistent much? You go from saying that Patten was so good that he pulled double coverage off Moss to saying he's not even a great #2? I'm pretty sure ARE or any other WR is fully capable of beating a defense that ignores them.

If you are going to insult people who disagree with you, you better be ready to defend your position.

:doh: Where did I say he was so good? You don't need to be elite to make a defense pay attention to you, and to be a viable threat in the passing game! What the heck is going on here? Are you guys for real? :hysterical:

How many no.2 WRs are actually elite? Does it mean when they aren't that they're worthless, or don't relieve pressure off the no. 1? Is that what you are saying? There's no in between...

[TomE]

I Like it Murf, adds a little more ammo to the ongoing topic of "discussion" around here.

Those who are incredulous about the stats should note that if the criterion used to arrive at those stats are consistent then the relative standing of the categories should be valid.

Take for instance the dropped balls, as long as the compilers of the stats use the same "way" to determine what a dropped pass is throughout the entire exercise then our guys dropped the most balls plain and simple.

We can argue the validity of the statistician's premise but that should be taken up with them.

The propensity of our guys to have the dropsies is concerning enough but how many were drive enders, how many were going to move the chains, how many would have put us in scoring position, how many deflated momentum and how many embellished the perception that Campbell cannot get it done?

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

. :munchout:

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Patten was still a viable threat, and even did well in New Orleans after he left us. You're only embarrassing yourself... please read my edit as well, as I remind you of your contradictory nature.

patten played well because *gasp* he had drew brees throwing to him. just like he only did well in NWE because he had brady throwing to him.

hes never done anything anywhere else, including here. but keep making up stories about scrubs who did nothing on our team.

[TSO]

stop exaggerating, david patton was a juggernaut. it had nothing to do with brunell being injured and wearing down at age 30 something that season.

we need david patten back if moss is ever gonna put up 1400 again. LOL

and newsflash for all of you: moss is not double covered on every single play. some of you make it sound like moss has two guys glued to him at all times. i seem to remember some of those miracle throws that brunell had in dallas where two guys were on moss and he beat them both. but theres too much risk involved in there, better check down to betts and be safe!

Moss had a Safety over the top of him last season on virtually every play. Care to disprove that? I asked you before, and I'll ask again, how many times did Moss get behind the Safety last season?

You're talking out of your you-know-what because you have no idea how to answer those questions.

[Botched]

I agree with that.

But of course you didn't disagree with my statement, but instead made some other unconnected argument. I assume you agree that folks that fall in to the "he is dumb/can't read a defense" category are misinformed.

Thanks.

Of course I'm not disagreeing, I can't argue with that stat. My argument is fully connected because that particular stat is irrelevant. It's like me saying " Dan Orlovsky was ranked #2 in passes of 10 yards or more in the 4th quarter, so he's a clutch QB."

I am fully convinced that Jason Campbell can not read a defense. I base my judgement not off one obscure stat like you have, but from witnessing the entirety of his 36 starts.