Major Harris Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Let's be honest, though. Half of your style in argument is to settle on a meaning-laden word that you feel you can pin on the discussion, then use it as often as possible because you feel it packs rhetorical punch. "BIGOT", "DISCRIMINATION", "CRIMINAL". half....you're such a nice guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 This story sucks. I understand illegal immigration is a massive problem here in America and a hot-button issue, but I don't agree with the penalty they gave this man. Even though they are breaking the law and crossing illegally doesn't mean they aren't human. I don't like illegal immigration and I wish our lawmakers would grow some balls and address this issue effectively, but that doesn't mean I've lost all sense of humanity and don't give a crap that desperate people who are trying to survive and make a better life for themselves and their families are dying. I know it's a fine line, and I find myself having a hard time drawing my own moral line between facilitating illegal behavior and trying to be compassionate and help others. I can definitely see both sides to the argument here, but I just don't think I could impose a punishment like that on someone trying to help...although I'll readily admit we don't know how much he was truly trying to help and how much he was making a political statement and thumbing his nose at the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Question for Larry et al.:If a medically-trained person happened to be a Border Patrol agent and saw a person who had just crossed the border collapse and start seizing, would you support helping that person or ignoring him? save his life, then put him in cuffs. No different than a criminal shot by an officer. The officer calls an ambulance, he doesn't stroll over a pop two more rounds in his head or just watch him die. Same could be said for warfare. Those that surrender are given medical care and food. It's called being civilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Let's be honest, though. Half of your style in argument is to settle on a meaning-laden word that you feel you can pin on the discussion, then use it as often as possible because you feel it packs rhetorical punch. "BIGOT", "DISCRIMINATION", "CRIMINAL". It seems to be the most effective technique when arguing with people who are denying the reality of the situation. I thought I asked you, but I'll do so again. Would you object to the use of the word "criminal" as a one word replacement for "person who has committed homosexual acts in the military", or would you argue against that as a value-laden term used only for rhetorical punch, perhaps insisting on the longer "technically illegal but the law is wrong" qualifier? And I've already answered you. The term is accurate, and I would argue to have the law changed. Funny, no one has answered my question: Do the people who refuse to admit that illegal immigration is illegal believe that the US should make it legal for anybody who wants to, to enter this country, and remain here as long as they want? I have no problem admitting that being gay in the military is illegal, and arguing that the law is immoral and should be changed. Do the folks glossing over illegal immigration with phrases like "just trying for a better life" support repealing that law? As an aside, I'm wondering... Have you reconciled your position that condoms don't encourage sexual activity, but water does encourage illegal border crossings in your own mind, yet?If so, how? Actually, I'm leaning towards the belief that: 1) That's a pretty good analogy. (The guy who came up with it must be pretty smart.) 2) That one reason the analogy fits is because of the "they're going to do it, anyway" factor. That, frankly, it isn't rational to expect people to stop the behavior simply because it's more or less risky. (Or at least, that the potential penalty (death for the border crosser, pregnancy/STD/whatever for the horny teen) happens to so few people that everybody will rationalize it into "it won't happen to me".) 3) I suspect that I may be in a rather unique position. I haven't checked, but I strongly suspect that, out of all the people in Tailgate who insist on pointing out that illegal immigration is illegal, I may be the only one who supports the distribution of condoms to teens. And, I'll also admit, I found the "Jesus would do it" arguments pretty persuasive. Which is kind of surprising for me, since usually when somebody invokes that argument I assume that what they're doing is simply stating their own opinion, and trying to claim that they're speaking for God. But in this case, that argument seemed to work on me. It "feels" right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 And I've already answered you. The term is accurate, and I would argue to have the law changed. Okay, then. Funny, no one has answered my question: Do the people who refuse to admit that illegal immigration is illegal believe that the US should make it legal for anybody who wants to, to enter this country, and remain here as long as they want? I'm pretty sure I already answered this, in that I'd be a heck of a lot closer to this policy than current policy. Actually, I'm leaning towards the belief that: 1) That's a pretty good analogy. (The guy who came up with it must be pretty smart.) I was actually a little put out when you wrote that, because I hadn't seen the thread in a while and it had occurred to me too, in the interim. You'll notice I introduced it the first time without referencing you at all. Looking at the rest of your answers, though, I guess the answer is no, you haven't? I don't think you're alone, though. I haven't searched through post histories, so I'm not sure enough to call anybody out, but I think I could identify at least one other person who supports condom distribution and opposes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 2 more items from me. The case itself was about littering. The guy was warned, the group was warned. The park rangers explained their concerns and issues. This guy chose to continue to litter despite this (for his own purpose and convenience). He then refused to pay the posted littering fine. Now he has a bigger problem. He didn't encounter a person dying of thirst, he didn't have a time based moral dilemma, he chose to deliberately violate the posted and warned about laws multiple times. And, as I have stated many times on immigration related threads, if these folks want a better life, they can change the country they live in now (via violent revolution if necessary) rather than bring themselves and families at great risk and in violation of our sovereignty and laws, over here. The difference between the the European influx and this influx is that the Europeans entered legally and according to the process we set up. The folks from down south are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 This story sucks. I understand illegal immigration is a massive problem here in America and a hot-button issue, but I don't agree with the penalty they gave this man.Even though they are breaking the law and crossing illegally doesn't mean they aren't human. I don't like illegal immigration and I wish our lawmakers would grow some balls and address this issue effectively, but that doesn't mean I've lost all sense of humanity and don't give a crap that desperate people who are trying to survive and make a better life for themselves and their families are dying. I know it's a fine line, and I find myself having a hard time drawing my own moral line between facilitating illegal behavior and trying to be compassionate and help others. I can definitely see both sides to the argument here, but I just don't think I could impose a punishment like that on someone trying to help...although I'll readily admit we don't know how much he was truly trying to help and how much he was making a political statement and thumbing his nose at the government. Ding ding ding. We've found the correct answer, folks. Hope you enjoyed your veal, don't forget to tip your waitresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 This story sucks. I understand illegal immigration is a massive problem here in America and a hot-button issue, but I don't agree with the penalty they gave this man.Even though they are breaking the law and crossing illegally doesn't mean they aren't human. I don't like illegal immigration and I wish our lawmakers would grow some balls and address this issue effectively, but that doesn't mean I've lost all sense of humanity and don't give a crap that desperate people who are trying to survive and make a better life for themselves and their families are dying. I know it's a fine line, and I find myself having a hard time drawing my own moral line between facilitating illegal behavior and trying to be compassionate and help others. I can definitely see both sides to the argument here, but I just don't think I could impose a punishment like that on someone trying to help...although I'll readily admit we don't know how much he was truly trying to help and how much he was making a political statement and thumbing his nose at the government. All this and beauty too...HTTR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I have no moral responsibility for people that I am financially responsible for...that are not in my immediate family. I don't owe them water, shelter, or even a buck for the bus. They have plenty just by coming here. I feel the same way about most homeless people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I have no moral responsibility for people that I am financially responsible for...that are not in my immediate family. I don't owe them water, shelter, or even a buck for the bus. They have plenty just by coming here. I feel the same way about most homeless people. That doesnt seem kosher? The right thing to do is to CRACK down on the coyote smugglers dropping them off in dead zones. The right thing to do is to put water and drones in the place where most people die. The right thing to do is to crack down on the companies profiting from this crap. But until then, we should try and save those that can be saved and send their ass back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Problem is even sending them back is an absurd process and time period. I just am so fed up with the justice system in general. "Right to a speedy trial". Let's get it over with already. Why are we paying for people to live on death row for years on end ? Why are we waiting to deport people (especially the criminals) for months to years on end ? It's just stupid. EDIT: And I am in no way, shape, or form responsible for saving them. That is their own responsibility not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Why are we paying for people to live on death row for years on end ? Because we keep finding people who've been living on death row for 10 years, who turn out to be not guilty? :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 And I am in no way, shape, or form responsible for saving them. Has anyone asked you to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 congratulations on being pointless.Yay for coming up with completely irrelevant scenarios :applause: ok i left work and i didnt have a chance to defend myself here... i made the point because some one was giving crap for giving the dude water and some food... the person stated i should have reported to the border patrol to have the illegal get picked up since first he shouldnt be there in the first place and then to probably save the man from dying... Knowing the area I am in there was unlikely the border patrol would have found him in short period of time nor was it likely that the border patrol would even send someone out there pick this guy up... In terms of human life aspect of this... how that so was that so much different than seeing an injured guy in a wreck who looks like he is about to die unless you help out? Should I just stand by and call 911 and turn around and hope for the best or should I try my best to help the man out? I guess if you want keep you nose "legally" clean you can call 911 and move on with your business but its not such a clear cut black and white issue like some of the posters here are making it out to be... One thing to note.. I don't think a person should purposefully going out there and putting water bottles "just in case". As that was the case here, I think the person should be punished cause thats premediated... I just shared my story cause I wanted to point out that its not always black and white in certain situations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Or, how about you find one person in this thread who's claiming that people dying isn't important, or that illegal immigrants aren't human, or that hiring illegals isn't a crime, or any of the other things you've tried to claim that people disagreeing with you have said? I haven't claimed any of those things... not how you've worded them here anyway. What I have said is that saving lives if possible is MORE IMPORTANT than their immigration status. Other, including you have disagreed arguing that we aren't helping people but instead assisting criminals break the law. I've argued with those that disagreed. Are you going to claim that this thread didn't begin with people arguing for and against leaving bottles in the desert to help people dying there? What I have said is that hiring illegals isn't just a crime (everyone knows that) but that it's the route to take if you actually want to solve the problem. I think those of you, and I include you, that focus on the poor immigrants the selves are partially to blame for the continued problem. There is no solution to be found there and because of your need to blame them we expend all of our energy chasing them around half heartedly and the situation continues. I never said that anyone said illegals weren't humans. I did call you on your stupid little "i'll admit they are humans when...." as if it matters if you think they are human or not. Which you did say in post 102. You were the one insisting on making this thread about immigration. I said it wasn't at all about immigration because no matter how this issue turned out immigration in the US would not change. I brought hiring into it because that is where the solution to the problem is found. The immigrants themselves aren't going to stop coming because you tell them that in your opinion they are taking responsibility for their own actions and that technically they are criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Seems to me this guys punishment fits his crime. I hope he picks up lots and lots of plastic out of the Park! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 You tell me Christian, how much compassion should you give them? Oh good one, pull the christian card. Like that hasn't been used before. :doh: None. And being called out on my christianity by you is purely laughable!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Or, how about you find one person in this thread who's claiming that people dying isn't important, or that illegal immigrants aren't human, or that hiring illegals isn't a crime, or any of the other things you've tried to claim that people disagreeing with you have said? I haven't claimed any of those things... not how you've worded them here anyway. 1) I need to apologize. Going back through things, it seems that virtually all of the things I was referring to were somebody else 2) Although I did find this: Interesting way of looking at things. They are trying to avoid people dying.... and you think that saving lives is a minor issue. Much more important to note that these people might be illegal immigrants. Great logic. You think ER doctors that treat illegals are "providing logistical support to a crime in progress" too Larry? I'm sure you do. Why focus on trivial things like life and death eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 1) I need to apologize. Going back through things, it seems that virtually all of the things I was referring to were somebody else no worries larry.2) Although I did find this: Which is fair IMO. We each want to focus on a different aspect of the water easter egg hunt. Pesonally I think the biggest humanitarian action in all of this is to end the problem by sealing the border and removing the temptation. Until then I'm cool with water bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Oh good one, pull the christian card. Like that hasn't been used before. :doh: None. And being called out on my christianity by you is purely laughable!! faith when it's convenient 81artmonk? can't say I'm surprised. I've pointed out your similarity to the Pharisee before. I'll do it again now. Compassion for those that agree with you "none" for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 faith when it's convenient 81artmonk? can't say I'm surprised. I've pointed out your similarity to the Pharisee before. I'll do it again now. Compassion for those that agree with you "none" for the rest. judge not lest ye be judged!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ha ha ha:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 judge not lest ye be judged!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ha ha ha:doh:Says the guy who decided for everyone who does and doesn't deserve compassion. hahahaha? fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Says the guy who decided for everyone who does and doesn't deserve compassion. hahahaha? fail. Look, you have people trying to break our laws by crossing illegally. Not only are they stupid enough to try it over the desert, but obviously from the story stupid enough to try it without enough water to survive. I'm sorry but stupidity shouldn't be helped or rewarded. It's not about compassion, it's about aiding and abeding criminals. alot of people, obviously including you, think that the proccess of coming to america LEGALLY is something that just doesn't matter. I don't. Now let's talk about true compassion. If I was driving down the road and found someone regardless of need would I help?? Sure. But would I knowingly go out of my way to help people break a law and attempt something illegal. No, because no matter how you slice it, that's not compassion, that's stupid!! For you to question my faith because you don't agree with my opinion is not only ignorant but very telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Oh good one, pull the christian card. Like that hasn't been used before. :doh: None. And being called out on my christianity by you is purely laughable!! "The good samaritan" just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Open borders! Who is with me? ( I suspect no one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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