WP: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

[JMS]

This is potentially a huge huge ruling. Could be the ruling with the biggest effect on peoples lives we've had in more than a decade.

I have a father in law who was trapped in middle management for decades because of affermative action in the US Parks Dept. The guy made super intendant of parks just before they started affermative action at a very young age, in the 70's, and never recieved another promotion for 20 years. Went from raising star to flat lined career growth, as minorities blew past him. I don't know if I'm a critic of affermative action, but it sure sucked for those who's career it hurt. Clearly with Colin Powel, Obama, and other prominant African American leaders it's desired effect on the executive landscape have been achieved. It's amaizing that it could all be over now. I wonder if it's effects will fade, and if we are truely passed systemic racial prejudice in this country.

I wonder if we are ready to do away with afirmative action?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/29/AR2009062901608.html

Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court ruled Monday that white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., were unfairly denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as an appeals court judge.

New Haven was wrong to scrap a promotion exam because no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be made lieutenants or captains based on the results, the court said Monday in a 5-4 decision. The city said that it had acted to avoid a lawsuit from minorities.

The ruling could alter employment practices nationwide, potentially limiting the circumstances in which employers can be held liable for decisions when there is no evidence of intentional discrimination against minorities.

"Fear of litigation alone cannot justify an employer's reliance on race to the detriment of individuals who passed the examinations and qualified for promotions," Justice Anthony Kennedy said in his opinion for the court. He was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the white firefighters "understandably attract this court's sympathy. But they had no vested right to promotion. Nor have other persons received promotions in preference to them."

Justices Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens signed onto Ginsburg's dissent, which she read aloud in court Monday.

Kennedy's opinion made only passing reference to the work of Sotomayor and the other two judges on the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals who upheld a lower court ruling in favor of New Haven.

[ACW]

Good. The city was pretty much in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation though.

[Corcaigh]

If the city wanted to argue that the test was flawed, they may have a case, but withdrawing a test because it's not giving you the results you want is ridiculous.

[ACW]

If the city wanted to argue that the test was flawed, they may have a case, but withdrawing a test because it's not giving you the results you want is ridiculous.

They argued (not unreasonably, IMO) that they would be sued by the black firefighters.

[JMS]

If the city wanted to argue that the test was flawed, they may have a case, but withdrawing a test because it's not giving you the results you want is ridiculous.

I believe the city yanked the results because black fire officials sued the city to have the results overturned, based on minorities poor showing in the tests. Then when the city threw out the tests, the white officers sued, on the grounds throwing out the test they had all taken discrimnated against the folks who had done well on the tests.. The White fire fighters.

Ten years ago, even 5 years ago, this case would have gone the other way.

[JMS]

They argued (not unreasonably, IMO) that they would be sued by the black firefighters.

There was a lawsuit from the black firefighters which the city was reacting too. Least that's what I heard on the radio this morning. Then there was a counter lawsuit from White firefighters challenging the cities reaction to the black firefighters lawsuit.

Obama's supreme court nominee voted against the White firefighters in this case. Her lower court ruling is being overturned.

[heyholetsgogrant]

The 4 justice's that voted against firefighters have a weak explanation.

[Kilmer17]

They argued (not unreasonably, IMO) that they would be sued by the black firefighters.

I actually think they did the right thing. And I also think the SCOTUS ruled correctly. They couldnt win once they saw the results of the test. They were going to get sued either way, but this was the path of least resistance and ended up with the correct ruling.

[Skins24]

There was a lawsuit from the black firefighters which the city was reacting too. Least that's what I heard on the radio this morning. Then there was a counter lawsuit from White firefighters challenging the cities reaction to the black firefighters lawsuit.

Obama's supreme court nominee voted against the White firefighters in this case. Her lower court ruling is being overturned.

What the city did was preemptive. They didn't hand out any promotions to avoid any lawsuits. No black firefighters filed lawsuits. Not that I know of and if they did, that would be a different case than this...

The white firefighters sued the city, it wasn't a counter.

[Corcaigh]

They argued (not unreasonably, IMO) that they would be sued by the black firefighters.

Discriminating against one group to avoid a lawsuit hardly seems like the right cause of action.

If the test was not accurately measuring who deserved to be promoted then it should have been replaced with something that did.

[IbleedBnG83]

I believe in affirmative action, but I don't believe in hiring someone for any position based on race. It should be like the Rooney Rule. An employer should have to interview at least a certain number of minorities.

Lets face it though, there is racism, favortism, "good ol boys club" at any work place.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I believe in affirmative action, but I don't believe in hiring someone for any position based on race. It should be like the Rooney Rule. An employer should have to interview at least a certain number of minorities.

Lets face it though, there is racism, favortism, "good ol boys club" at any work place.

Isn't that the truth!

[sacase]

This shouldn't have an effect on AA, because AA says that the two people have to be equally qualified, not one more qualified than the other.

So in this case, the city set it self up by issuing the test, then after the results removing it. If the Quota of minorities in leadership positions at the firedepartment had not been met and a black and white firefighter we both EQUALLY qualified, then it would have gone to the minority and the white firefighters would not have won. In this case, it is like saying the top 10 people who take this test will get promoted. Opps, there were no minorities who qualified, well let's scrap it. Don't set the rules then change them.

[IbleedBnG83]

Isn't that the truth!

Yep! And it goes both ways. Many times there are minority groups who do it aswell. Women, Minority races...you will see that they will do the same thing. I went through that in the military.

[MattFancy]

I like this move. I think Affirmative Action needs to be scraped or redone now. Minorities are starting to hold very prestigious roles in this country now. We have a black POTUS now, I don't think many people thought they'd see the day that happened. I believe that the best person for the job should get it, it shouldn't be based on anything else but that. There's no excuse for minorities anymore since more and more are having prominate roles in society now.

[IbleedBnG83]

it would have gone to the minority and the white firefighters would not have won.

Race should never be a deciding factor in determing someones hiring or firing.

If there are two EQUALLY qulified persons, than more interviews or tests shoudl be administered to get down to the fine points to decide, not race.

But I digress, I agree they should not change the rules.

[endzone_dave]

Obama's supreme court nominee voted against the White firefighters in this case. Her lower court ruling is being overturned.

Pro AA rulings will be alive and well after Obama puts his liberal judges in place. Black people will soon have to stop worrying about studying for tests in a few years.

[LaxBuddy21]

This shouldn't have an effect on AA, because AA says that the two people have to be equally qualified, not one more qualified than the other.

So in this case, the city set it self up by issuing the test, then after the results removing it. If the Quota of minorities in leadership positions at the firedepartment had not been met and a black and white firefighter we both EQUALLY qualified, then it would have gone to the minority and the white firefighters would not have won. In this case, it is like saying the top 10 people who take this test will get promoted. Opps, there were no minorities who qualified, well let's scrap it. Don't set the rules then change them.

This should have an effect on AA because since a certain number of positions need to be held by minorities and there were clearly not enough to fill those positions, the test was scraped. When (if ever) are all things equal between two people applying for a job? Someone is almost always a better candidate regardless of race. The best man should get the job no matter what. I think AA had its place in the beginning because minorities were clearly being overlooked for positions but now I think it has become outdated and cases of discrimination should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

[Riggo#44]

Lets face it though, there is racism, favortism, "good ol boys club" at any work place.

That's true -- but it goes both ways. There seems to be a prevailing notion that it is perfectly ok to discriminate against a majority.

[Madison Redskin]

This should have an effect on AA because since a certain number of positions need to be held by minorities and there were clearly not enough to fill those positions, the test was scraped. When (if ever) are all things equal between two people applying for a job? Someone is almost always a better candidate regardless of race. The best man should get the job no matter what. I think AA had its place in the beginning because minorities were clearly being overlooked for positions but now I think it has become outdated and cases of discrimination should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

To me, affirmative action comes down to three questions:

(1) Do you believe that African Americans are statistically far more likely to be impoverished and incarcerated than whites?

(2) If so, do you believe that those statistics are attributable to nature or nuture? In other words, do you believe that African Americans suffer from some genetic defect which causes them to be more likely to be poor and engage in criminal behavior? Or, do you believe that African Americans are far more likely to be poor and engage in criminal behavior because of

the way society has treated them (both in the distant past and now)?

(3) If you do not think African Americans suffer from high poverty and incarceration rates because of some genetic defect, but rather the way society has treated them, do you believe society has an obligation to try to make amends? If so, you are an affirmative action supporter like me.

[Madison Redskin]

That's true -- but it goes both ways. There seems to be a prevailing notion that it is perfectly ok to discriminate against a majority.

I know, white guys like us just can't catch a break.

[JMS]

What the city did was preemptive. They didn't hand out any promotions to avoid any lawsuits. No black firefighters filed lawsuits. Not that I know of and if they did, that would be a different case than this...

The white firefighters sued the city, it wasn't a counter.

Yep the article agrees with your assesment. I was in error thinking the white fire fighters were counter sueing.

[JMS]

Pro AA rulings will be alive and well after Obama puts his liberal judges in place. Black people will soon have to stop worrying about studying for tests in a few years.

Actually I beleive the members of the coart most likely to be replaced by Obama are the liberals. So Obama is unlikely to overturn this ruling by replacing the folks like Ginsburg, Sutter, or Stevens.

[LaxBuddy21]

To me, affirmative action comes down to three questions:

(1) Do you believe that African Americans are statistically far more likely to be impoverished and incarcerated than whites?

(2) If so, do you believe that those statistics are attributable to nature or nuture? In other words, do you believe that African Americans suffer from some genetic defect which causes them to be more likely to be poor and engage in criminal behavior? Or, do you believe that African Americans are far more likely to be poor and engage in criminal behavior because of

the way society has treated them (both in the distant past and now)?

(3) If you do not think African Americans suffer from high poverty and incarceration rates because of some genetic defect, but rather the way society has treated them, do you believe society has an obligation to try to make amends? If so, you are an affirmative action supporter like me.

No I am not an AA supporter like you because I think there are better ways to make amends and to help the African American community then give them jobs over more qualified individuals. You want to help the African American community lift itself up? Spend more money on education. Open up the opportunity for them to become competitive in the work place do not just hand them the job over someone else because they have a different skin color. Put more money and time into the inner cities and help lift those people up. I am all about providing opportunity that people can take advantage of. I am not all about handouts. People should work for the things they get not just be handed them regardless of skin color.

[MattFancy]

No I am not an AA supporter like you because I think there are better ways to make amends and to help the African American community then give them jobs over more qualified individuals. You want to help the African American community lift itself up? Spend more money on education. Open up the opportunity for them to become competitive in the work place do not just hand them the job over someone else because they have a different skin color. Put more money and time into the inner cities and help lift those people up. I am all about providing opportunity that people can take advantage of. I am not all about handouts. People should work for the things they get not just be handed them regardless of skin color.

That's the way to do it, but it won't happen because it would cost too much time and money. People want the easy and cheap way and unfortunatley, that's AA.

But I agree, spend money to clean up the inner cities and give them a good education. Then everyone will be on equal footing and may the best person for the job win.