WP: Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

There is an assumption here that all poor people are lazy bums who never fought for anything or work hard for anything. I think that's false.

Where's that assumption? Some people have greater obstacles to overcome then others and **** happens to them.

The biggest issue in this country (and becoming worse at an alarming rate) is people thinking they are entitled to anything. It's being crammed down our throats that we are entitled to this, entitled to that. We aren't entitled to **** except for the decision to live our lives and make decisions for ourselves.

[Burgold]

That's a fair point. And you are right that there are some who work hard and still don't get anywhere. But I'd say a good amount of them aren't willing to put in the time and effort.

I'm not saying everyone is on equal footing at all, I think there is a distnict advantage between the rich and poor. Look at Steve Jobs and the liver transplant thing as an example.

Yup. I don't know what the percentages of are of people who are idle verus hardworking amongst the rich or the poor, but there are different realities and sometimes not only do they not start from the same starting point, they don't always even start on the same track. The cool thing about America is that everyone has a chance to overcome anythng, but there are those who start the race with a couple of boulders strapped to their backs.

I am sorry but there are always opportunities.

Yes, but there are also so many hours in the day. Your mom had to work to supply the family with needs and she had the responsibility of being a good mother, plus a host of other things on her plate. As you said, she was far from lazy and didn't live with her hand in her hat. Sometimes, it's about opportunity, sometimes it's about choices, but sometimes there's a reality that limits your options. There's nothing wrong with keeping that in mind or aiming a few more scholarships, for example, at the kids of Anacostia versus the kids of Chevy Chase.

As far as the degrees from different schools, of course some look better than others. Those people who go into those big schools also worked harder to get there in most cases. The opportunities are out there people just need to stop complaining about what everyone else has and work with what they have. Take advantage of every opportunity if you want to advance!

Again, I think you underestimate the power of networking. Getting into that great university or getting the shot at that great job has a lot to do with who you know and who you get to meet. I actually came to this reality a bit late. That doesn't mean if you don't have connections you can't rise to the very top... heck, look at President Obama... but it makes it very much harder, especially when you have to weigh in all the other considerations.

Remember, fair is not equal.

Edits:

JMS, that's a great song and very appropriate in this thread.

Redskins4lyf,

The person I was quoting more or less agreed with that I didn't misread the subtext that could be understood within his quote. So, I stand by it.

There are real differences. In my mind that's not an excuse for not trying or for whining for help, but it is something that must be wrestled with. The rich aren't with burdens either... sometimes they are judged as being given everything and have to work twice as hard to prove themselves. Others have to break through other barriers... like the one you are expressing.

[MattFancy]

Yup. I don't know what the percentages of are of people who are idle verus hardworking amongst the rich or the poor, but there are different realities and sometimes not only do they not start from the same starting point, they don't always even start on the same track. The cool thing about America is that everyone has a chance to overcome anythng, but there are those who start the race with a couple of boulders strapped to their backs.

Exactly, everyone here has a "chance". Not everyone has the same chance, but you can do things along the way to help it. Staying in school, working hard at your job, staying out of trouble, etc. Just because you aren't give a head start, doesn't mean you can't finish first.

[LaxBuddy21]

Again, I think you underestimate the power of networking. Getting into that great university or getting the shot at that great job has a lot to do with who you know and who you get to meet. I actually came to this reality a bit late. That doesn't mean if you don't have connections you can't rise to the very top... heck, look at President Obama... but it makes it very much harder, especially when you have to weigh in all the other considerations.

I dont underestimate the power of networking at all. It has gotten me a long way. I built my own networks though through people I me throughout my education and career. Its not like i was handed one. And yes, people with better connections have it easier but so what? My point was that people have opportunities. Some have to work harder. Sometimes it means sacrificing some of the time you have to get what you want. Sometimes its really hard. My mom had a lot going on in life but she could still have taken some classes here and there. It might have taken her 10 years to get a Bachelors degree but she still could have done it. My mother-in-law came over to this country from Cuba with nothing in her pocket and not speaking a word of english. She busted her butt to get the education she needed and now is a CPA for the Federal Government making good money. I know there are legitimately some people that cannot do for themselves. The elderly, the disabled and the mentally challenged. Those people should be supported by the government. Everyone else needs to get out and do something about their lives. I dont want to hear sob stories about where Joe Schmoe is now because of all the bad choices he made and now he cant do anything about it. He got there because of those choices. I have no problem helping him get back on his feet but I have a problem supporting him for the rest of his life because of those choices.

[Burgold]

I have no problem helping him get back on his feet but I have a problem supporting him for the rest of his life because of those choices.

Believe it or not, I think we're about 80% in agreement. I kept this quote because I very much agree with it.

My Mom also was an immigrant who didn't speak English and she worked her way through the ranks to become a leading scientist in the area of eye research at the NIH (or NEI if you want to be specific). She's made over 20 major discoveries including the impact of ultraviolet radiation on eyes (which she told me she got endless grief about for over 5 years because the science community really wanted to disagree with her.)

Anyway, she arrived with practically nothing and everything she earned she earned, but luckily she also found some mentors and some free classes that gave her the rudiments of speaking English. Without those "helping hands" I don't know where she would be today.

[Madison Redskin]

Where's that assumption? Some people have greater obstacles to overcome then others and **** happens to them.

The biggest issue in this country (and becoming worse at an alarming rate) is people thinking they are entitled to anything. It's being crammed down our throats that we are entitled to this, entitled to that. We aren't entitled to **** except for the decision to live our lives and make decisions for ourselves.

I understand all of the above statement and agree with a lot of it. However, I do believe that society has a moral obligation to make some right some of its past wrongs. That doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to be as wealthy as everyone else. It means that most everyone should have roughly the same degree of access to opportunities that everyone else has. Life is full of inequities, but just because we can't and shouldn't address all of them doesn't mean we shouldn't address any of them.

I think we can all agree that far too many predominantly African American communities are afflicted by many problems, including high crime rates, high poverty rates, scant job opportunities, and a general sense of despair. I think we can also agree that those afflications are a blight on our society and our society continues to "lose" lots of talented individuals who are capable of becoming productive individuals. So, with that in mind, the question to me comes down to, "How do we ensure that our country offers all of its citizens roughly equal opportunity to succeed in our society?" I personally believe AA programs are an imperfect solution, but one that at least recognizes that there is a problem and one that we should attempt to fix or, at the very least, mitigate.

[Madison Redskin]

It doesn't do any good to continue to promote a worldview where everybody who's rich is a greedy oppressor who needs to be knocked down a few pegs because he owes you something.

Where did you get the strange idea that I think that everybody who is rich is a greedy oppressor who needs to be knocked down a few pegs? I'm not rich, but I make a healthy six figure salary and I love me some me. So it's not like I hate myself and project self-loathing onto everyone else.

I do, however, recognize that I had two, very attentive and responsible parents, grew up in an affluent neighborhood with similarly-situated kids, had my undergrad paid for in full, was steered towards my profession and given all kinds of helpful mentoring and access to a great network of people, etc. I also recognize the reality that a lot of kids don't have those kinds of support networks that often make the difference between "success" and "failure."

[LaxBuddy21]

Believe it or not, I think we're about 80% in agreement. I kept this quote because I very much agree with it.

My Mom also was an immigrant who didn't speak English and she worked her way through the ranks to become a leading scientist in the area of eye research at the NIH (or NEI if you want to be specific). She's made over 20 major discoveries including the impact of ultraviolet radiation on eyes (which she told me she got endless grief about for over 5 years because the science community really wanted to disagree with her.)

Anyway, she arrived with practically nothing and everything she earned she earned, but luckily she also found some mentors and some free classes that gave her the rudiments of speaking English. Without those "helping hands" I don't know where she would be today.

Thats a great story! I actually work indirectly with NIH (they pay our contract) so I know a lot about NEI. I agree those helping hands should definitely be there but, as with your mother, they were helping hands to help her up not life support for the rest of her life! I think social welfare programs are wonderful if they are used as helping hands and not permanent life support. They become a way to keep people down when they are able to be used that way because they become dependent on the system for survival.

[DjTj]

Thats a great story! I actually work indirectly with NIH (they pay our contract) so I know a lot about NEI. I agree those helping hands should definitely be there but, as with your mother, they were helping hands to help her up not life support for the rest of her life! I think social welfare programs are wonderful if they are used as helping hands and not permanent life support. They become a way to keep people down when they are able to be used that way because they become dependent on the system for survival.

Why are we still having this debate about welfare when we instituted time limits and work requirements in welfare reform during the Clinton administration? Didn't Newt Gingrich fight and win this battle in the 90's?

http://www.heritage.org/research/welfare/bg1620.cfm

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6629

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

I understand all of the above statement and agree with a lot of it. However, I do believe that society has a moral obligation to make some right some of its past wrongs. That doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to be as wealthy as everyone else. It means that most everyone should have roughly the same degree of access to opportunities that everyone else has. Life is full of inequities, but just because we can't and shouldn't address all of them doesn't mean we shouldn't address any of them.

I think we can all agree that far too many predominantly African American communities are afflicted by many problems, including high crime rates, high poverty rates, scant job opportunities, and a general sense of despair. I think we can also agree that those afflications are a blight on our society and our society continues to "lose" lots of talented individuals who are capable of becoming productive individuals. So, with that in mind, the question to me comes down to, "How do we ensure that our country offers all of its citizens roughly equal opportunity to succeed in our society?" I personally believe AA programs are an imperfect solution, but one that at least recognizes that there is a problem and one that we should attempt to fix or, at the very least, mitigate.

Why the high crime rates? Are people from outside the community coming in, committing crimes, then heading back to their communities? It's the people inside those communities.....

All because some of these people choose, of their own free will, to keep ****ing up, doesn't mean everyone else has to pay for their issues. That's when the communities as a whole need to rise up against their behavior. Sadly, that behavior is becoming more and more accepted as a way of life.

This all goes back to taking responsibility for own's one actions but somehow this country as a whole can't grasp that.

[SparkleMotion]

I understand all of the above statement and agree with a lot of it. However, I do believe that society has a moral obligation to make some right some of its past wrongs. That doesn't mean that everyone is entitled to be as wealthy as everyone else. It means that most everyone should have roughly the same degree of access to opportunities that everyone else has. Life is full of inequities, but just because we can't and shouldn't address all of them doesn't mean we shouldn't address any of them.

I think we can all agree that far too many predominantly African American communities are afflicted by many problems, including high crime rates, high poverty rates, scant job opportunities, and a general sense of despair. I think we can also agree that those afflications are a blight on our society and our society continues to "lose" lots of talented individuals who are capable of becoming productive individuals. So, with that in mind, the question to me comes down to, "How do we ensure that our country offers all of its citizens roughly equal opportunity to succeed in our society?" I personally believe AA programs are an imperfect solution, but one that at least recognizes that there is a problem and one that we should attempt to fix or, at the very least, mitigate.

They won't ever be "fixed" in the eyes of people whose purpose in life is to see oppression everywhere. At what point will the NAACP have it's "mission accomplished" moment and disband itself?

It won't be fixed until the victim mentality is shed completely. Race hustlers and pandering do much more to keep that mentality alive than anything else in society.

No matter how you slice it, the core message behind AA is "you are a victim and you are owed something that you are unable to get for yourself."

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

Redskins4lyf,

The person I was quoting more or less agreed with that I didn't misread the subtext that could be understood within his quote. So, I stand by it.

There are real differences. In my mind that's not an excuse for not trying or for whining for help, but it is something that must be wrestled with. The rich aren't with burdens either... sometimes they are judged as being given everything and have to work twice as hard to prove themselves. Others have to break through other barriers... like the one you are expressing.

I'm one Rdskn4lyf

Both ends of the spectrum ultimately end up where they are because of their own individual actions. Everyone has access to school, correct? No matter how good it is. Everyone has that opportunity to bust their ass and get away from where they are being brought up through education. It's their own actions that cause them to miss that opportunity and many others. On the other hand, some grasp that chance or others that come along and do something with their lives.

The difference is the number of opportunities that someone gets, so you have to make the most of the ones that you come across. That falls solely on the individual.

[Burgold]

I'm one Rdskn4lyf

The difference is the number of opportunities that someone gets, so you have to make the most of the ones that you come across. That falls solely on the individual.

See, now we're back to the 20% where I disagree. If your library has access to ten books and mine has access to a thousand books plus the internet who has more opportunity to learn? The tools matter. Networking matters. It's not solely about the individual. The degrees of difference are real. Again, they can be overcome, but a ****ty teacher makes learning harder because they're boring and at various stages of life not all motivators are intrinsic. Even today, there are some subjects I just dislike and shy away from because of how I was exposed to them.

[Madison Redskin]

It won't be fixed until the victim mentality is shed completely. Race hustlers and pandering do much more to keep that mentality alive than anything else in society.

You're essentially saying, "oh come on, let bygones be bygones, even if the past has greatly contributed to your royally ***** up present and future." Either that, or you must believe that the past has nothing to do African Americans' current predicament, which is actually the result of some inherent "differences" between them and the rest of America. I assume it's the former and not the latter.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

See, now we're back to the 20% where I disagree. If your library has access to ten books and mine has access to a thousand books plus the internet who has more opportunity to learn? The tools matter. Networking matters. It's not solely about the individual. The degrees of difference are real. Again, they can be overcome, but a ****ty teacher makes learning harder because they're boring and at various stages of life not all motivators are intrinsic. Even today, there are some subjects I just dislike and shy away from because of how I was exposed to them.

I'm not so sure it's 20% you disagree with. With what I bolded it sounds like you agree to what I'm saying. We can both agree that people get different hands and some have more to overcome, but it's up to them to overcome.

To the library access. Say mine does have less books and less to learn from. Does that change the fact that I have the access? The underlying point I'm making is schooling. Sure, there are some ****ty high schools and some great ones. It is up to the individual to do their best in either. If you are in a ****ty school, it's up to you to get the best grades possible and participate in any extra-curricular activities so you can get a scholarship and get out of there. In that point, and with everybody (public school gives everyone access), you have the choice to change your circumstances.

[Burgold]

It absolutely changes the access. Let's say that you only have access to those books. You are missing huge gobs of information and theory. Thus the shape of your world is much different than the shape of my world. More simply put, if we are asked to design a website and I give you a computer from 1973 and I use the most modern computer who's going to be able to design the better site, more quickly, more efficiently, and with more bells and whistles.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

It absolutely changes the access. Let's say that you only have access to those books. You are missing huge gobs of information and theory. Thus the shape of your world is much different than the shape of my world. More simply put, if we are asked to design a website and I give you a computer from 1973 and I use the most modern computer who's going to be able to design the better site, more quickly, more efficiently, and with more bells and whistles.

The bottom line is everyone has an opportunity to gain that access. Scholarships are out there for anyone to earn. Some might have to overcome more hurdles in high school, but it is there to be earned regardless. From there, the world is at one's fingertips.

[SparkleMotion]

You're essentially saying, "oh come on, let bygones be bygones, even if the past has greatly contributed to your royally ***** up present and future." Either that, or you must believe that the past has nothing to do African Americans' current predicament, which is actually the result of some inherent "differences" between them and the rest of America. I assume it's the former and not the latter.

I think black culture is different from others and I'm sure most people would agree. It's different in good ways and bad ways. Granted, culture has a big effect on a person's development, but I can't stomach the arguments that an individual is a slave to whatever culture they happened to be born into.

The past also plays a part as well. But there has to be a point eventually where we can all admit that institutionalized racism is no longer a significant factor in our society. A lot of people think we have already reached that point. I would say we're not quite there, but we're never going to get there unless we stop encouraging groupthink among races, which is exactly what AA and racial interest groups do.

How close/far do you think we are from that goal and what would it look like when we get there?

[Madison Redskin]

I think black culture is different from others and I'm sure most people would agree. It's different in good ways and bad ways. Granted, culture has a big effect on a person's development, but I can't stomach the arguments that an individual is a slave to whatever culture they happened to be born into.

The past also plays a part as well. But there has to be a point eventually where we can all admit that institutionalized racism is no longer a significant factor in our society. A lot of people think we have already reached that point. I would say we're not quite there, but we're never going to get there unless we stop encouraging groupthink among races, which is exactly what AA and racial interest groups do.

How close/far do you think we are from that goal and what would it look like when we get there?

If you think history and institutionalized racism do not account for today's clear and unmistakable gaps between whites and blacks in terms of class, crime, etc., what do you think accounts for the difference?

[SparkleMotion]

If you think history and institutionalized racism do not account for today's clear and unmistakable gaps between whites and blacks in terms of class, crime, etc., what do you think accounts for the difference?

I said that history and past racism have been debilitating factors. Nobody will argue that they haven't.

To deny that is as myopic as saying that the black community bears no responsibility whatsoever for its own problems.

I think a culture of unaccountability accounts for the difference.

[NavyDave]

The best should be rewarded while those that are not still have the privilege to try again. And the response to those threatening to sue should have been told to stop sniveling bust but and work to pass the next exam.

I would have been insulted that I'd need a 10 sec head start or 3 to 5 free answers to level the playing field.