Thank you Obama for ****ING cigar smokers and retailers

[TimmySmith]

And where will the government get this money?

The government is us, how is that not obvious anymore?

Taxing a Twinkie still leaves it up to personal choice. Isn't that what you value above all? The freedom to decide for yourself if you'd like to be taxed with that Twinkie?

~Bang

Get what money? You mean the money to pay for the money that they spent without having the money? No amount of taxes will cover that unless they take it all, which they are trying to do, and some are supporting them. IMO if you agree with this tax then you agree with the direction the government is heading. I simply do not.

FYI: I would gladly agree to this tax IF the government did away with income tax and went to a sales tax, which this is.

[Stew]

And where will the government get this money?

The government is us, how is that not obvious anymore?

And you have a very distorted view of the word "enforcing".

Enforcing healthy eating is to FORCE it,, ie: arrest anyone possessing transfat. Fine people over their calorie quota. Force people to exercise under penalty of law, or tax every pound they are over the optimum weight for their height. That is enforcement.

Taxing a Twinkie still leaves it up to personal choice. Isn't that what you value above all? The freedom to decide for yourself if you'd like to be taxed with that Twinkie?

~Bang

Thank you, I was going to ask him to define enforce as well. The choice is still there and though I may not feel as passionate about the twinkie as TimmySmith, even if there is a tax on junk food I may still pony up and buy the office Dunkin Donuts... because its my choice if i want to live the unhealthy lifestyle...despite the Govt promoting a healthy lifestyle by not taxing healthy foods...

By the way TimmySmith, Im assuming its ok to call you names and to stoop to your level when speaking to you. You seem comfortable calling people who dont agree with you names from up there on your high perch, so you must not mind them being slung back. Its just not worth acting like a kid to match wits with you.

Grow up.

[Thiebear]

Again, it's relative... how many 100's of millions of tax payer bucks are going to be spent today on smoking related health needs. Moving forward, how many billions in hospitals, nursing homes, drugs, etc will be required of us. Is that 24 dollars generating profit or just trying to break even with the cost that smokers burden society with?

Again, I don't have a lot of sympathy for smokers who are inflicting themselves. Smoking is a want not a need. If you choose not to use (or make a living via selling) tobacco based products this tax has no effect on you.

See, where I'm evil in this case is... I don't actually care if the cigar shops go out of business. I would actually prefer if customers reduce or stop smoking. Now, if we suddenly have an underground cartel of people buying their cigs from Mexico or Canada the way we do with pharmaceuticals... well then, we'll have another different interesting conversation.

So you're taking the reasoning out of this and basically rooting for what you consider to be the evil money grabbers to fail.

based on that: If we just stopped treating people after 62yrs of age were debt free? SO its obviously a great idea as they cost us so much money.

[mbws]

What is the current tax on cigs?

Depends on the State or even the city. A convenience store in Queens, a block away from the border of Queens and Nassau County had to stop selling cigarettes altogether, because the NY City Tax made each pack cost over $2.00 more than the same pack down the street, causing people to completely stop buying them from him.

Personally I don't care. I quit smoking in 1977.

It is also not just the added revenue to blame for the increase in the so called "Sin Taxes."

If cigars and cigarettes become too expensive, it may induce more people to give up these stupid habits, which would trickle down to me not having to pay more for someone's emphysema or mouth cancer.

[Burgold]

So you're taking the reasoning out of this and basically rooting for what you consider to be the evil money grabbers to fail.

.

Partly. I think it's only fair in this argument to admit my prejudice upfront. The other part is I think that these smokers and smoking establishments ought to invest/pay for the damage and cost that they are engaging in. The money to care for them must come from somewhere. Why not from their own pockets?

[willmb5]

If you're going to propose a sin tax on, say, fast food or other fatty/unhealthy foods as some have proposed (albeit you may not be serious), where in the hell do you draw the line? That's something that's completely subjective, as is proposing different taxes for different types of tobacco and alcohol. Do you tax McDonalds but not Subway? Do you tax a twinkie but not fruit by the foot? What about cheetos vs goldfish. The main point here is that it wouldn't be fair (and probably not constitutional, but I'm not too familiar with the document unfortunately) at all to discriminate against certain products and have an increased tax on those while leaving others to prosper due to cheaper costs. It would probably ruin certain companies and allow others to prosper. Who determines what products should be taxed a certain way and how would they do it. If you ask me, those are not the democratic principles that the U.S. was founded upon and what makes it so great. If you tax certain things higher than others, you are defacto removing choice, especially for poorer people who won't afford higher taxed items.

I understand that you could make that argument about having a "sin" tax at all because it's rather arbitrary the way they come up with the tax percentage I'm sure. The issue is that there's no way to logically draw a line between what's fair and what isn't. There's really no chance that it ever happens, at least I hope not. Why not just legalize gambling and increase the tax base? Why not legalize marijuana and maybe other drugs?

Certain people are arguing that the problem is paying for other people's health problems when they get older (e.g. lung cancer). Well maybe the problem is the idea of Medicare/universal health care? The problem is paying for other people's issues/problems instead of one's own. If we were all forced to pay for our own issues, we would have to live healthier or face the consequences. God forbid we all become responsible for our own actions/decisions in life.

Obviously I realize that this situation is hypothetical and not going to happen as we're moving more towards unviersal health care/socialism/less privatization, but if everything was more privatized/de-nationalized, maybe we wouldn't face certain issues like this. I know the world isn't perfect but it would be very interesting to see what the U.S. would be like if things were much more privatized than they are.

Sorry that this argument bounces around a lot and wanders from topic to topic, but it's early. Also, do realize that I realize certain proposed things in this argument aren't realistic (like scrapping Medicare), but I just think it's quite fun to play the "what if" game. Anyways, that's my rant. Go ahead and flame me for it and make me feel like an iddiot.

[mbws]

I did also hear recently that a new tax on alcohol is on the way also.

Good!

[Bang]

Get what money? You mean the money to pay for the money that they spent without having the money? No amount of taxes will cover that unless they take it all, which they are trying to do, and some are supporting them. IMO if you agree with this tax then you agree with the direction the government is heading. I simply do not.

FYI: I would gladly agree to this tax IF the government did away with income tax and went to a sales tax, which this is.

This sort of double speak doesn't answer the question.

Reality says we need the money we already owe .

Where do you propose we GET the money we need?

It's not about agreeing with the government. It's about recognizing the reality of the situation, and fixing the problem. The ship is listing, and all it seems you want to do is run to the end of the boat that will help it go under just to say "nyah nyah nyah."

Blaming the government for spending is well and good, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and it doesn't mean it's all been spent on junkets to Tijuana and rhinestone covered widgets.

Wars cost a lot of money. I know many don't agree with our war, but I do, and I know it isn't free. I also know that you can't fight one by reading a balance sheet.

For years the anti-war crowd has been bombarding us with the cost of this war. Well, it isn't just gonna go get paid by itself. If we want security it has a price tag. If we want to try to end fantacisim and terrorism, it has a price tag.

Living in America is terrific. We have a good life here, by and large, and if we want to continue to have it, we have to clean up our messes that have been coming on for a long long time.

Back when I was in High School during Carter's presidency is when I first started to hear about this giant deficit that was running up the debt for our kids (of which I was one they were taling about.) The stuff driving the Tea Parties isn't new. My parent's generation passed their version of the debt to our generation, and we've passed it on to the next. Just a couple of months ago thousands of people took to the streets in peaceful protest to say "NO, we don't want to pass this debt to our kids!"

So how do we not do this? There are only three ways I know to get rid of debt.

1. Pay it off. Pretty simple.

2. Skip town. Are we going to move America to the Caymans and call it a day?

3. Die. And even that won't work, because they'll just take it from your kid.

Seems like #1 is the most feasible solution to keeping a something of an American Dream alive for our kids. I don't know about you, but suffering through a little itty bitty sin tax to help make my kid's lives better is a small price to pay.

~Bang

[TimmySmith]

So how do we not do this? There are only three ways I know to get rid of debt.

1. Pay it off. Pretty simple.

2. Skip town. Are we going to move America to the Caymans and call it a day?

3. Die. And even that won't work, because they'll just take it from your kid.

Seems like #1 is the most feasible solution to keeping a something of an American Dream alive for our kids. I don't know about you, but suffering through a little itty bitty sin tax to help make my kid's lives better is a small price to pay.

~Bang

So why not just take ALL money? If paying off the debt is really the purpose. In this case, I do not believe it is. You can be argumentative, but I believe a reasonable person would expect that this tax will cause stores to close, people to be laid off, and fewer products purchased. All three of these certainly make our debt worse.

Spending UNDER your budget is the only way the average person, company, nation can realistically pay off debt.

[Bang]

So why not just take ALL money? If paying off the debt is really the purpose. In this case, I do not believe it is. You can be argumentative, but I believe a reasonable person would expect that this tax will cause stores to close, people to be laid off, and fewer products purchased. All three of these certainly make our debt worse.

Spending UNDER your budget is the only way the average person, company, nation can realistically pay off debt.

So where do you think this money will go?

~Bang

[Midnight Judges]

Can you? Nope...

Maybe that's because it doesn't exist...

http://www.sba.gov/idc/groups/public/documents/sba_homepage/guide_to_size_standards.pdf

Sure it does. And there is certainly a need for it seeing as how the small business standards have increased over the years.

http://www.acquisition.gov/FAR/01-26r2/html/Subpart_19_9.html

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/regions_centers/mmac/acquisition/small_business/overview/

[Thiebear]

If i could pay a fee and get it over with i would.

unfortunately they haven't even slowed down, next is healthcare and insurance companies etc. etc. etc. etc...

wake me when they hit neutral in the massive amount of spending. up 12% in one year..

geesh.

[jrockster21]

I don't understand how people can complain about a $1-2 tax on a LUXURY item, that you can definitely live without. Its a cigar...its already getting filed under "disposable income." If you can't afford the extra $1 on your stick, you probably shouldn't have been buying them in the first place. :2cents:

I really think this is just another conservative excuse to point fingers at Obama. If you want to ***** about something, try ****ing about his new 'cyber-czar' position, that is total ridiculousness.

[twa]

I don't understand how people can complain about a $1-2 tax on a LUXURY item, that you can definitely live without. Its a cigar...its already getting filed under "disposable income." If you can't afford the extra $1 on your stick, you probably shouldn't have been buying them in the first place. :2cents:

I really think this is just another conservative excuse to point fingers at Obama. If you want to ***** about something, try ****ing about his new 'cyber-czar' position, that is total ridiculousness.

By that token why not tax the internet?

You certainly don't have to have it,and if it is a need for business ,it would be deductible.

[jrockster21]

By that token why not tax the internet?

You certainly don't have to have it,and if it is a need for business ,it would be deductible.

Actually, I use the internet for my job a lot. A lot of people do. Bad example.

Also, the internet doesn't give you lung cancer.

[TimmySmith]

So where do you think this money will go?

~Bang

If I said a year ago that I think it will go toward bonuses for employees of a failed financial institution what would your response had been?

[Dictator]

I'll tell you what, I'm sick of paying taxes that go to people on welfare who can't seem to keep their legs closed. Is there anything we can do to tax them? It was their choice to have a child. They are an unnecessary burden on our system we all pay into.

[twa]

Actually, I use the internet for my job a lot. A lot of people do. Bad example.

Also, the internet doesn't give you lung cancer.

If it is essential ,it is deductible

The staring at a monitor and repetitive motions do cause health issues though.

You expect a pass when driving up public health costs?

At least lung cancer removes them early from the welfare rolls.

[Bang]

If I said a year ago that I think it will go toward bonuses for employees of a failed financial institution what would your response had been?

The same as it is whenever someone avoids a question

Will you answer it?

Where do you think this money will go?

~Bang

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Does half of the country just sit around all day and night thinking about taxes? Seriously, whether you pay a tax on cigars or 500 bucks more per year in income tax is about the 50th most important issue in the country today.

so yea, at some point, shut up and pay your taxes.

[TimmySmith]

The same as it is whenever someone avoids a question

Will you answer it?

Where do you think this money will go?

~Bang

You avoided mine as well. But my answer was not an avoidance. Basically not one of us has any clue where our tax money ends up anymore. Worse than that, no one seems to care.

[LaxBuddy21]

I don't understand how people can complain about a $1-2 tax on a LUXURY item, that you can definitely live without. Its a cigar...its already getting filed under "disposable income." If you can't afford the extra $1 on your stick, you probably shouldn't have been buying them in the first place. :2cents:

I really think this is just another conservative excuse to point fingers at Obama. If you want to ***** about something, try ****ing about his new 'cyber-czar' position, that is total ridiculousness.

What happens when they start taxing your "luxaries"? For people who smoke, this is not the first time the tax has been increased on tobacco products. Cigarettes have more than doubled in price since I started smoking 6 years ago. My complaint is not targeted at Obama, its targeted at government in general because both parties have done the same thing. If we start down this slippery slope of taxing luxaries, isnt anything that is not a need a luxary? So we tax everything more except for basic healthy foods, cheap clothing (you dont need name brands), and cheap housing. Everything else we can tax as much as we want right? You dont need your car. You can take public transportation. Thats a luxary. Lets increase the tax on cars by 25%. Lets increase MVA fees. Lets increase the gas tax. Lets increase the taxes on sodas, candy, anything with added sugar, meats with excess fat and so on. Lets tax travel (you dont need to take that vacation). Lets tax concerts and events (you dont need to go to those either). All of these things are luxaries and the only reason you feel differently about smoking is because the tax doesnt affect you so why should you care right?

Yea we have a choice to buy something and pay the tax or not right? If you cant afford it, then how is it a choice any more? See smokers are an easy target because of all the propoganda that has turned the country against smokers like we are some disease infecting society. It does not affect the majority of people so they cheer the government on as they stick it to smokers. What happens when they target another minority group that you belong to? And for all the complaints about picking up the health costs for smokers, I pay for my own health insurance so no one is picking up the cost for me but me.

[LaxBuddy21]

Does half of the country just sit around all day and night thinking about taxes? Seriously, whether you pay a tax on cigars or 500 bucks more per year in income tax is about the 50th most important issue in the country today.

so yea, at some point, shut up and pay your taxes.

The half that scrapes by pay check to pay check to make ends meet certainly does. Each of those tax increases puts a greater burden on them and their families. Just because you do not fall into that group does not mean it is not an important issue and they should just suck it up and pay their taxes.

[wshngtn1]

Does half of the country just sit around all day and night thinking about taxes? Seriously, whether you pay a tax on cigars or 500 bucks more per year in income tax is about the 50th most important issue in the country today.

so yea, at some point, shut up and pay your taxes.

But I was told I there would be NO increase in taxes for me whatsoever. :mad:

[willmb5]

Bingo LaxBuddy, that's pretty much similar to what I was trying to say. Where the hell do you draw the line, and how do you do it. Seems there is no fair solution.