Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 logic isn't allowed in these JC threads one thing I've learned getting involved in these JC threads the past week, is no matter what is said, no matter what facts are present, people believe only what they want, and have creative and not so creative ways to ignore the truth, (on both sides). I really like the unique arguments used to find a way to rationalize ones preconceived opinion. The ones that make absolutely no attempt to be logical, or factual, are my favorites... doesn't have a football mind.... :rotflmao: these threads are nothing but an exercise in futility.... JC is the starter, and will be barring incident next season, like it or not.... that's just how it is.... and well have to wait and see how it all plays out. and that's a fact because logic obviously isnt allowed in here, here are the numbers he asked for regarding those guys first 3 nfl seasons. eli manning 41 games 690/1276 - 54% 8049 yards 54 TDs 44 INTs drew brees 42 games 787/1282 - 61% 8551 yards 55 TDs 38 INTs campbell doesnt throw TDs like either of these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeen80 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Unlike JC, Ramsey was left out there to get slaughtered by defenses thanks to the Ol Ball Coach. I would cringe just sitting on my cauch watching him take a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_R Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 just wanted peoples inputs comparing our last 2 first round QBs. Don't forget Campbell vs Brunell the year noodle-arm was benched. Mark Brunell in 2006 posted the following stats in 9 games he started:1789 yards, 8 TD's, 4 INT's, a QB rating of 86.5. Brunell averaged 6.9 yards per pass. This averages out to: .8 TD's a game. .4 INT's a game 198 yards per game His season projections would have been: 3180 yards, 13 TD's, 6 INT's I clearly remember people wanted Brunell's head on a stick that season, blaming him for the teams futile offense. People called him "noodle arm", stated that his career was over and complained every time he threw short of the first down marker. We had a miserable record because our defense was pretty bad itself. Now look at Campbell this year: 3089 yards, 12 TD's, 6 INT's, 6.5 yards per pass, 84.3 QB rating. Season averages: 205 yards per game .8 TD per game .4 INT per game Again here are Brunells in his much maligned season: .8 TD's a game. .4 INT's a game 198 yards per game What's sad is that people ragged on Brunell for having a noodle arm and being old and washed up yet he had a better yards per pass than Campbell that year. I'm not a Colt Brennan supporter but I think Campbell despite being in a first year offense has not played to the level a first round pick like him should. I'm not in support of a sudden change but Campbell should have a total of 5-8 games to prove his worth to this franchise next year. But those who are in complete support of him, did you give the same to Brunell in 06 without calling him expletives, noodle arm and washed up? Because the numbers for Campbell and Brunell are right on par with each others and Campbell is as much dink and dunk as him. HTTR :helmet::logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljeasel Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 one thing I've learned getting involved in these JC threads the past week, is no matter what is said, no matter what facts are present, people believe only what they want, and have creative and not so creative ways to ignore the truth, (on both sides). I dont think Ramsey ever got a fair shot. Im not sure he could have been anything special but I was real young and my understanding of the game was even less. I do think Spurrier killed him physically and mentally. He never learned how to use discretion with the ball - which Jason Campbell has made giant strides in. Did he have a crappy line? Yeah, and a bad scheme too. Thats why his stats arent great either. Similar conditions exist for Campbell, and such we saw his great start to 08 fizzle out with the run game later in the year. But for that 6-2 stretch I think Campell played better than any other QB in recent Washington history. If thats not just a fluke but indicative of who he can be, then why wouldnt you want to keep that? My vote is more time for Campbell. This WCO supposedly takes time. Should mean he grows in the system and can make up for some of the deficiencies in the team with familiarty in the offenes Even if you dont believe Campbell is the man, you would at worst have the backup already found. He knows the system, big tough guy, and has won some big games. Thus, he could come in for your starter in a pinch. This team aint winning nothing next year barring a miracle offseason. Until we get better pass pro, a legit 2nd WR, a 2nd RZ target, better depth behind CP, a pass rushing front 4, revamped LB corp - we arent going to do much better than .500. The resources that would be spent on a high drafted QB or a FA QB could be spent addressing those needs. Matt Ryan's contract is for $72 million, you could get a $72 million question mark or you can pour that $72 million into your lines and other roster needs. Because of those 3 reasons and the discussion above, I dont really think "giving up" on Campbell makes any sense for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I thought Ramsey was given the shaft, and by post those stats, I thought you were trying to show that Campbell deserved even more of a chance. Because to me, those numbers are SO much better than Ramsey's and I was a Ramsey fan. Those numbers just convinced me that Campbell deserves more time, I was shock to see after those stats that you were trying to use them against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I'm far from sold on JC at this point -- I doubt he'll be the starter much longer -- but Ramsey is lucky to still be in the league. The guy can't throw short or deep with any touch. He can throw a laser intermediate ball -- that's it. He has terrible pocket presence, holds on to the ball forever, and for a smart guy off the field, he is an idiot on it. The game has never slowed down for him. If his first read isn't open, he panics and makes a bad decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 If you think Campbells o-line was bad, see the beating Ramsey took. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 If you think Campbells o-line was bad, see the beating Ramsey took. Spurrier's blocking schemes were laughable, but Ramsey did himself no favors with his slow decision making. He's a lot like David Carr in that he makes his linemen look worse than they are. One week off the street, Timmy Hasslebeck stepped in and made reads Ramsey never did and the line suddenly didn't look so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 ...Ramsey is lucky to still be in the league.The guy can't throw short or deep with any touch. He can throw a laser intermediate ball -- that's it. He has terrible pocket presence, holds on to the ball forever, and for a smart guy off the field, he is an idiot on it. The game has never slowed down for him. If his first read isn't open, he panics and makes a bad decision. The only thing you said that you can prove is that the medium-range throw is his strength and his deep throws lack touch. The rest is just blather, the kind of nonsense people always say about QBs they're trashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The only thing you said that you can prove is that the medium-range throw is his strength. The rest is just blather, the kind of nonsense people always say about QBs they're trashing. Right. Ramsey's great. That's why he got cut in Jersey and is about to be cut in Denver. Good kid, likeable kid. But not a guy you can win with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 My input: Campbell>Ramsey.How much of that has to do with Spurrier killing Ramsey while he was coach (and most of us remember THAT thread), but I think Campbell is more poised and has the stronger arm. Actually, Ramsey has the stronger arm. Much stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Spurrier's blocking schemes were laughable, but Ramsey did himself no favors with his slow decision making. He's a lot like David Carr in that he makes his linemen look worse than they are. One week off the street, Timmy Hasslebeck stepped in and made reads Ramsey never did and the line suddenly didn't look so bad. Tim Hasselbeck was cheating on his reads, going from primary to checkdown. That's why he got rid of the ball so quickly. Probably learned it from his big brother. Brunell did the same thing until Al Saunders came to town. Did you ever notice that Ramsey spread the ball around whereas with Brunell it was Cooley or Santana or check it down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Ramsey got killed out there because the ol' ball coach never held anyone back to protect him and the line was inadequate to keep the D out without help. Then, like now, I suggested improving the OL was an option. It didn't happen then and we are still waiting. I thought they pulled the plug on Ramsey way too fast. I thought Brunell was bad because for part of the year he couldn't seem to throw the ball over 20 yards. It wasn't that all of the plays called for short passes. I saw Moss open 10 yards behind the cornerbacks and Brunell attempt to throw it. It barely made it short of the CB that Moss left behind. Later on Brunell revealed he had been hurt. I understand playing with pain and it's admirable. But playing when you're incapable of performing to the level needed is selfish. I suppose the description of Campbell repeating history is fairly accurate. We still have most of the same OLine we had then, don't we? Not counting the downgrade from a healthy Dockery to an aging vet in Kendall, of course. And of course, the 4 or 5 years added to the age of the OL that were with Ramsey aven't helped a lot. But if you're going to let history repeat, you might as well do it with some of the same players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Right. Ramsey's great. That's why he got cut in Jersey and is about to be cut in Denver. Pennington got cut by Mangini too. Ramsey can't get cut in Denver. He's a UFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Ramsey got killed out there because the ol' ball coach never held anyone back to protect him and the line was inadequate to keep the D out without help. Then, like now, I suggested improving the OL was an option. It didn't happen then and we are still waiting.I thought they pulled the plug on Ramsey way too fast. I thought Brunell was bad because for part of the year he couldn't seem to throw the ball over 20 yards. It wasn't that all of the plays called for short passes. I saw Moss open 10 yards behind the cornerbacks and Brunell attempt to throw it. It barely made it short of the CB that Moss left behind. Later on Brunell revealed he had been hurt. I understand playing with pain and it's admirable. But playing when you're incapable of performing to the level needed is selfish. I suppose the description of Campbell repeating history is fairly accurate. We still have most of the same OLine we had then, don't we? Not counting the downgrade from a healthy Dockery to an aging vet in Kendall, of course. And of course, the 4 or 5 years added to the age of the OL that were with Ramsey aven't helped a lot. But if you're going to let history repeat, you might as well do it with some of the same players. Very, very well put. Ramsey didn't get a fair shake, and when your first experience in the NFL is getting your head knocked off, it's going to rattle you. I feel bad for the guy. Campbell's still playing behind the same line, and it still sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyro281 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Actually, Ramsey has the stronger arm. Much stronger. I'll be honest, I don't remember much of Ramsey, I spent most of his time here in college where I couldn't see games that often, so my memory is incomplete. If that's true, then I stand corrected. But I stand by my statement that Campbell is more mobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Without getting deep in to the numbers, but just looking at the overall stat lines for Ramsey's time here and Campbell's, Campbell has shown improvement, statistically, each season he has played in just about every category. Ramsey improved his completion percentage one season, but overall, statistically, he didn't improve greatly each season. I hate to point it out because maybe he hasn't had a real shot elsewhere, but there's a reason he's been a back-up the whole time since leaving here. Plenty of people were willing to give Ramsey more time. People were calling for him to replace Brunell during the '04 season. People were ticked when Gibbs benched Ramsey week 1 in 2005. So it's not this assumption you're making that most people were done with Ramsey. Heck, there's still even posters on here who think Ramsey never got a fair shot with Gibbs. Are you just bringing this up to fan the JC flames more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 because logic obviously isnt allowed in here, here are the numbers he asked for regarding those guys first 3 nfl seasons.eli manning 41 games drew brees 42 games campbell doesnt throw TDs like either of these guys. :rotflmao: last time I checked 36 is less than 41/42 maybe that's not being logical in fact makes it look like you are trying to hide something or manipulate the results...so lets look at each's first 3 season playing, and their 4th highlighted from nfl.com * Brees played only 1 game in his first season, a full 16 his second Also added 2 time Super Bowl winning QB, Big Ben Roethisbeger & Patrick Ramsey for reference Jason Campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodiesel#44 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 because logic obviously isnt allowed in here, here are the numbers he asked for regarding those guys first 3 nfl seasons.eli manning 41 games 690/1276 - 54% 8049 yards 54 TDs 44 INTs drew brees 42 games 787/1282 - 61% 8551 yards 55 TDs 38 INTs campbell doesnt throw TDs like either of these guys. You are missing 1/2 of the equation here. You need to list the WR's who made the other half of those numbers. We'll forget about the OL's involved for the sake of brevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'Em84 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I always thought Ramsey deserved another shot. I think Campbell does too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIN4WAHOOZ Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 You act like 60% isn't much different than 56%. That's false. Even if our QB only threw 25 balls a game, that's one more completion each game. One more drive kept alive. One more touchdown.Look at the TD:INT ratio. That's another huge number. If anything, your post convinces me that Campbell needs at least one more shot. one more drive kept alive, one more td? given whoever catchs the ball makes the first man miss and 2nd and 3rd. you know he's gonna throw 5 yards short of the marker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 You are missing 1/2 of the equation here. You need to list the WR's who made the other half of those numbers. We'll forget about the OL's involved for the sake of brevity. Brees 2002 2003 2004 Manning: 2004 2005 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 logic isn't allowed in these JC threads one thing I've learned getting involved in these JC threads the past week, is no matter what is said, no matter what facts are present, people believe only what they want, and have creative and not so creative ways to ignore the truth, (on both sides). I really like the unique arguments used to find a way to rationalize ones preconceived opinion. The ones that make absolutely no attempt to be logical, or factual, are my favorites... doesn't have a football mind.... :rotflmao: these threads are nothing but an exercise in futility.... JC is the starter, and will be barring incident next season, like it or not.... that's just how it is.... and well have to wait and see how it all plays out. and that's a fact Have you read Neitzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil". He talks a lot about this. One day there will be these people called "free thinkers" who don't need to try to formalize their own opinions and call them facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodiesel#44 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Brees 2003 2004 Manning: 2004 2005 2006 There you go. Those balls were getting spread around, opening up guys like Plaxico, Boston, Gates, Toomer, Shockey, Barber, Hilliard, Tomlinson, Conway... JC had Lloyd, ARE, Thrash and Cooley before his transformation into a blocking TE. Plus the occaisonal dumpoff to Betts. Moss can't get it done alone. Nobody can alone. I don't think you can blame the numbers solely on JC. And that's completely ignoring his protection, or lack therof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeypeet Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Ramsey backed up Cutler, the NFL's #1 young QB, in Denver. The Jets experts on QBs thought they had a winner in Kellen Clemens and they cut Pennington. So you are saying that Ramsey still hasn't had a chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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