campbell vs ramsey

[Oldfan]

So you are saying that Ramsey still hasn't had a chance?

That's right.

IMO, the biggest factor in the success of a young QB is being lucky enough to be drafted by the right team. Ramsey has been snakebit. He got no support from Spurrier or Gibbs. Yet, he still outplayed every QB they threw up against him.

Gibbs spent three picks on a QB with lousy mechanics to replace one who was 90% mechanically sound. I think Patrick would be a good fit for Zorn's offense.

Those who say he's gunshy might be right, but I'd like to see him get a chance in a good situation before I write him off.

[clarkskin]

At the time, Ramsey showed a lot of potential. Both he and Campbell have well above average arm strength, and both stand (or stood in Ramsey's case) very tough in the pocket. After being destroyed under Spurrier's offense, Ramsey developed a case of happy feet and never looked the same. I still think he could have been a good QB. That said, JC is 3 inches taller, and is much more mobile than Ramsey ever was. Ramsey deserved, and Campbell now deserves more time to show what he can do. I am still baffled at the lack of respect for Campbell shown by extremeskins members. There is no doubt he is tough, does not quit, and never gets rattled. Though I do agree with the doubters that obviously the "proof will be in the pudding." He has to get the job done. I believe he will, most on this site have written him off. Only time will tell.

[eagleskins]

My input: Campbell>Ramsey.

How much of that has to do with Spurrier killing Ramsey while he was coach (and most of us remember THAT thread), but I think Campbell is more poised and has the stronger arm. Plus, he's got better scrambling ability (notice that you didn't post running yards, as Campbell has converted a few 3rd and longs with his running).

Campbell's arm is not as strong as Ramsey's. No

[Flycoach]

im sure this has been done before but i havent seen it in awhile. just thought id throw out some numbers.

campbell: started 36 games in 3 years

7,242 yards

675/1130 - 60%

35 TDs, 23 INTs

80.4 rating

Ramsey: started 29 games in 3 years

5,370 yards

465/836 - 56%

33 TDs, 28 INTs

74.1 rating

now im under the impression that most people had seen enough of patrick ramsey after 3 years of starting and not starting. joe gibbs definitely had seen enough after 2004. my question is, why with pretty similar numbers (you can argue campbells are slighty better, completion percentage is a little higher and a few less picks) why are so many people willing to give campbell even more time? i wasnt on this board in 04 or 05, were people still clamouring for ramsey to be given another shot? and remember, ramsey had to switch offenses in 04, and frankly it was a much more drastic switch than campbell has had to endure. going from spurriers fun and gun to joe gibbs' 1984 football is a complete 180.

just wanted peoples inputs comparing our last 2 first round QBs.

Good post. However, IMO, numbers don't tell the whole story. For me, I have nothing to back it up other than a "feeling" that JC is way better than Ramsey ever was or could have been. While both had/have the big arm (Ramsey being the great javelin thrower that he was), JC has better touch and more "pocket presence" (I know, what the heck is THAT, really?). Anyway, if JC remains our QB for the next 10 years, I'd be cool with it. Now, having said that, I like the idea of CB pushing him. If nothing else, we'd then have some trade bait (either JC or CB).

[Passizle]

So you devised that that extra completion a game was a drive sustaining throw leading to a TD' date=' and not 1 more WR screen for no gain?

Talk about a QB having no pass protection Ramsey was the epitome of that.[/quote']

EXACTLY! Which is why JC needs more time... both literally and figurativley. Both these guys came out of school with pretty high expectations. Both were thrown into the fire behind a porous line. Both are pretty talented guys.

My hopes are that JC does not become gunshy like PR. I think that PR has more sacks than completed passes in a few games...

[ntotoro]

Campbell has a different touch than Ramsey.

That's pretty much it. Neither one of them is terribly good and neither one seemed/seems to be able to feel when he's being hunted down from his blind side.

[tonyriggins]

Gibbs was an idoit and that really hurt Ramsey, you would have to be great (which Ramsey was not) to make it with no support from your head coach. Gibbs made a big mistake with Brunell and never owned it. The fans respected Gibbs decessions and he and Brunell got a free pass until it was too late. Gibbs hurt Ramsey more than Spurrier did. Gibbs supported Campbell like he should, but not Ramsey that was the biggest difference.

[bootzilla]

because logic obviously isnt allowed in here, here are the numbers he asked for regarding those guys first 3 nfl seasons.

eli manning

41 games

690/1276 - 54%

8049 yards

54 TDs 44 INTs

drew brees

42 games

787/1282 - 61%

8551 yards

55 TDs 38 INTs

campbell doesnt throw TDs like either of these guys.

What You keep forgetting when comparing JC to other QB , Is that 80% of the Other QB have Been in the Same System For those First 40 plus Games. :2cents:

[NewCliche21]

Gibbs was an idoit and that really hurt Ramsey, you would have to be great (which Ramsey was not) to make it with no support from your head coach. Gibbs made a big mistake with Brunell and never owned it. The fans respected Gibbs decessions and he and Brunell got a free pass until it was too late. Gibbs hurt Ramsey more than Spurrier did. Gibbs supported Campbell like he should, but not Ramsey that was the biggest difference.

I'd respond, but you kinda proved my point about all Gibbs bashers with your fourth word.

[ntotoro]

I'd respond, but you kinda proved my point about all Gibbs bashers with your fourth word.

It was French...

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

What You keep forgetting when comparing JC to other QB , Is that 80% of the Other QB have Been in the Same System For those First 40 plus Games. :2cents:

eli threw 24 TDs in his 2nd year after only 9 games in said system. all i wanna see from JC is TDs, something i havent seen in 36 games.

[Thinking Skins]

Jason Campbell 2008

BY FIELD POSITION  CMP  ATT   YDS  CMP%   YPA  LNG  TD  INT  SACK    RAT
Own 1-20 ydline     38   50   424  76.0  8.48   29   0    0   6.0  100.8
Own 21-50 ydline   156  237  1763  65.8  7.44   67   2    2  15.0   87.2
[color="Red"]Opp 49-20 ydline    89  156   844  57.1  5.41   29   0    3  13.0   64.2[/color]
Opp 19-1 ydline     32   63   214  50.8  3.40   18  11    1   4.0   91.5
Opp 9-Goal ydline   12   20    44  60.0  2.20    8   7    0   0.0  104.2

Eli Manning 2008

BY FIELD POSITION  CMP  ATT   YDS  CMP%   YPA  LNG  TD  INT  SACK    RAT
Own 1-20 ydline     29   49   352  59.2  7.18   48   0    2   2.0   64.3
Own 21-50 ydline   115  184  1416  62.5  7.70   41   0    2  18.0   81.7
[color="Red"]Opp 49-20 ydline    99  159  1163  62.3  7.31   40   4    4   5.0   82.3[/color]
Opp 19-1 ydline     46   87   307  52.9  3.53   18  17    2   2.0   90.9
Opp 9-Goal ydline   13   28    40  46.4  1.43    6  10    1   1.0   78.0

Notice the difference in the stats in this area of the field. Between the opponent's 49-20 (in scoring position), our offensive line was breaking down and getting Campbell sacked. You can compare this to Eli Manning's numbers and see some respectable numbers, and notice the lack of sacks.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

between the 49-20 isnt scoring position. thats bomb or big intermediate TD passes, something i gave up on campbell long ago. campbell and eli have virtually the same sack number in the redzone, yet eli threw 27 TDs and campbell threw 18. thats a big difference.

and again, sacks are not all on the oline, a lot of it has to do with campbell not being able to read blitz schemes, and holding the ball too long. this whole notion that rabach hikes the ball and the dogs are sent loose on campbell is ridiculous. he had plenty of time to complete throws and just doesnt. see the bengals game.

and heres my favorite stat:

campbell was sacked 16 times in the first 8 game

campbell was sacked 22 times in the last 8 games

now 7 of those were against the steelers in one game, and the steelers had an insane pass rush. so really, campbell was sacked 6 times more in the 2nd half than he was in the first, and 7 came in one game where we were just outmatched. the sack numbers hold no water in terms of consistent oline failure, which many of you claim for his shortcomings.

[Thinking Skins]

between the 49-20 isnt scoring position. thats bomb or big intermediate TD passes, something i gave up on campbell long ago. campbell and eli have virtually the same sack number in the redzone, yet eli threw 27 TDs and campbell threw 18. thats a big difference.

Actually, its 17 to 11.

and again, sacks are not all on the oline, a lot of it has to do with campbell not being able to read blitz schemes, and holding the ball too long. this whole notion that rabach hikes the ball and the dogs are sent loose on campbell is ridiculous. he had plenty of time to complete throws and just doesnt. see the bengals game.

So it doesn't strike you as odd that their sack numbers are so similar in other areas of the field? You don't think it could be a matter of our OL getting tired on longer drives? If Campbell indeed held the ball too long, wouldn't you expect his sack numbers to be much higher across the board? Instead, they are only much higher in this one area of the field.

and heres my favorite stat:

campbell was sacked 16 times in the first 8 game

campbell was sacked 22 times in the last 8 games

now 7 of those were against the steelers in one game, and the steelers had an insane pass rush. so really, campbell was sacked 6 times more in the 2nd half than he was in the first, and 7 came in one game where we were just outmatched. the sack numbers hold no water in terms of consistent oline failure, which many of you claim for his shortcomings.

Yeah, and we all agree that the offense stalled in the second half of the season. The question is how much of that blame goes on Campbell versus howmuch goes on other things. CP had over 950 yards in the first 8 games and then less than 500 in the last 8 games. coincidence? We also played Pitt, Balt, Dallas, Philly, NY in those last 8 games. Those are some of the best defenses in the league. coincidence?

[ttr77]

Man, now we're comparing JC to Eli based on how they played based on field position? Shoot...I ain't got that kind of time...

[ntotoro]

Man, now we're comparing JC to Eli based on how they played based on field position? Shoot...I ain't got that kind of time...

Between the 40 and 42, Campbell is better.

[elkabong82]

between the 49-20 isnt scoring position. thats bomb or big intermediate TD passes, something i gave up on campbell long ago. campbell and eli have virtually the same sack number in the redzone, yet eli threw 27 TDs and campbell threw 18. thats a big difference.

and again, sacks are not all on the oline, a lot of it has to do with campbell not being able to read blitz schemes, and holding the ball too long. this whole notion that rabach hikes the ball and the dogs are sent loose on campbell is ridiculous. he had plenty of time to complete throws and just doesnt. see the bengals game.

and heres my favorite stat:

campbell was sacked 16 times in the first 8 game

campbell was sacked 22 times in the last 8 games

now 7 of those were against the steelers in one game, and the steelers had an insane pass rush. so really, campbell was sacked 6 times more in the 2nd half than he was in the first, and 7 came in one game where we were just outmatched. the sack numbers hold no water in terms of consistent oline failure, which many of you claim for his shortcomings.

I already showed you the stats earlier which showed the sack rate from the opp. 49-20 was ridiculously high. I love how you try to put most of the blame for the sacks on JC, as if he wasn't getting met behind the line and having to roll out of the pocket at times. Sure some sacks are on the QB, but more sacks are on the OL when the QB is met by a defender, or about to be, after a simple 3 step drop. Which makes more sense: An injury-plagued OL that lost starters as the season progressed allowing sacks after a long drive, or a QB getting himself sacked at a much higher rate in that area than any others? You're ignoring a lot of facts just to support your cause. Zorn even said in his interview at the combine yesterday that the opponents 49-20 was our biggest problem area, and he said it literally 1 day after I pointed the same information out to you. It is the line wearing down. And the Steelers game was no abberation as you're trying to proclaim. Those 7 sacks were all on the OL that game, so you have to consider them with the whole, you can't cherry pick just to suit your own ends.

Yeah, you're right, Eli and JC were sacked about the same amount in the redzone. Eli was sacked 2 times, JC 4. Only guess what else you've ignored? How many times each threw a pass in the redzone. Eli had 24 more pass attempts in the redzone, and was sacked 2 less times. But I'm sure that's all JC's fault too, right?

Seems Campbell didn't have as much of a problem making blitz reads and not getting sacked the first half of the season when the OL was fresh and Samuels wasn't banged up, and Kendall could still practice during the week, and, well you get the picture, though you are ignoring it. And I already discussed the Bengals game with you. I saw it live. JC actually did a decent job in that game, he completed almost 61% of his passes, for 167 yards and 1 TD. Not a dominating performance, but not terrible either. I also pointed out Cooley's fumble when we got within scoring position, and the BS fumble by Sellers on the goalline. Were those Campbell's fault too? Just because it's a different day doesn't mean rehashed points that have already been refuted all of a sudden hold new merit.

Like I said, when 13 of the sacks come in one area out of just 160 or so pass attempts, and that area happens to be on the other side of the field, and it just so happens your star LT is injured and then out, and your young RT is injured and out and returns late but on the other side, and your guard can't practice during the week and your other guard is coming off a majory injury, as is the other RT, then it means the OL was wearing down. I don't know why you're so adimant about putting all the blame on JC. He does ned to improve but the stats are all clearly showing OL was the defecencie last season.

[ttr77]

Between the 40 and 42, Campbell is better.

Only in the 2nd quarter when the team is down by less than 7 points. However, this trends the other way when there is a chance of rain within 48 hours.

Go figure.

[Santana_Fan]

Ramsey was scared to get hit. He was taking a beating far worse than David Carr did in his years with the Texans. It's like Ramsey couldn't handle pressure. I know for sure he's not as comfortable as Campbell is.

[ntotoro]

Ramsey was scared to get hit. He was taking a beating far worse than David Carr did in his years with the Texans. It's like Ramsey couldn't handle pressure. I know for sure he's not as comfortable as Campbell is.

That's impossible. David Carr owns a single-season record from '02 when he was sacked 72 times. He was even sacked 68 times one season.

[bubba9497]

So it doesn't strike you as odd that their sack numbers are so similar in other areas of the field? You don't think it could be a matter of our OL getting tired on longer drives? If Campbell indeed held the ball too long, wouldn't you expect his sack numbers to be much higher across the board? Instead, they are only much higher in this one area of the field.

goes back to the "ignoring the obvious because it doesn't aid your point" argument

and the "he holds the ball too long" rationalization argument, though there is nothing to suggest that's true. No scouting report, coaches, media experts.... ever say it when Liston JC's faults

The point you made about why he has so many sacks in one area, not everywhere equally

Also Campbell had been sacked only 28 times in his previous 19 starts or 1.47 times a start.... hardly suggesting a problem, yet this year sacked 38 times in 16 starts or 2.38 times a start... a huge increase, to say the least.

Why? JC just didn't regress, or suddenly after all the years playing QB, start behaving differently than normal, and purposely hold the all longer.... in an offense that uses short drops, and timing routes designed to make quicker short throws :rotflmao:

the difference......... :idea: oh yeah the obvious.... problems in the OL

Yeah, and we all agree that the offense stalled in the second half of the season. The question is how much of that blame goes on Campbell versus howmuch goes on other things. CP had over 950 yards in the first 8 games and then less than 500 in the last 8 games. coincidence? We also played Pitt, Balt, Dallas, Philly, NY in those last 8 games. Those are some of the best defenses in the league. coincidence?

the detractors make excuses to defend the poor production, and refuse to acknowledge the importance it is to a successful passing attack.

again these threads are a waste of time and energy

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Actually, its 17 to 11.

i was adding the inside the 10 yard line to that, which made it the numbers i posted.

So it doesn't strike you as odd that their sack numbers are so similar in other areas of the field? You don't think it could be a matter of our OL getting tired on longer drives? If Campbell indeed held the ball too long, wouldn't you expect his sack numbers to be much higher across the board? Instead, they are only much higher in this one area of the field.

this is so subjective because you have no clue how they teams got to that part of the field. it could have been one big pass play, or one big run, or 15 plays that took up 8 minutes. pure subjective thinking on this, youre just assuming that any time the team was in this area it was somehow after a long drive tiring the offense.

Yeah, and we all agree that the offense stalled in the second half of the season. The question is how much of that blame goes on Campbell versus howmuch goes on other things. CP had over 950 yards in the first 8 games and then less than 500 in the last 8 games. coincidence? We also played Pitt, Balt, Dallas, Philly, NY in those last 8 games. Those are some of the best defenses in the league. coincidence?

we played better defenses in the second half for sure. pitt and baltimore are the only teams that had insane defenses. we swept philly somehow, and split with the cowboys. the 2nd cowboys game portis was actually averaging 4.5 a carry but campbell could do nothing through the air and we ended up having to throw. cant run all game. NY is just a better overall team than we are, and campbell couldnt throw against them in week 1 with our fresh oline, or in week x with our supposed battered oline.

[turbodiesel#44]

the detractors make excuses to defend the poor production, and refuse to acknowledge the importance it is to a successful passing attack.

again these threads are a waste of time and energy

JC does tend to hang onto the ball sometimes. I don't suppose that has anything to do with NOT HAVING RECEIVERS CAPABLE OF GETTING OPEN.

[KevinthePRF]

BLC, what is the solution? Should the Redskins dump Campbell and go for Mark Sanchez or Josh Freeman in the draft? Should we go all out in free agency for Warner or Garcia who has vapors left in the tank?

I look at the Panthers down here and they are in the conundrum this year with Jake Delhomme. He's average, always will be. But there isn't a solution this year to viably justify immediately dumping the problem.

[Santana_Fan]

That's impossible. David Carr owns a single-season record from '02 when he was sacked 72 times. He was even sacked 68 times one season.

I was joking about taking a beating more than Carr, but Ramsey still IMO looked a lot more uncomfortable.