bulldog Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 To implement the WCO that Zorn favors the team has to change its approach to evaluating and selecting OL. The WCO favors quicker, more athletic OL who are adept at pass protection for a qb using that 3-5 step drop and release. The Redskins also need to get younger along the OL across the board. While Joe Bugel has been a legendary OL coach in the past, I think at 68 his fondness for the power ground game and keeping 30's veterans on the roster instead of developing younger players is out of step with what Jim Zorn needs on his staff now. Rennie Simmons retired recently and I think Joe needs to follow him. The Gibbs regime is over. I can see on defense where maintaining Blache and Gray has worked, largely because Blache has decided not to entertain major changes to the scheme which takes the veteran performers out of what they do best. On offense a number of players are miscast and the team can't allow sentimentality to dictate who is kept and who plays in 2009. We really needed to see Stephon Heyer at RT in 2008 so a better judgment about his future could be made, instead Bugel (Zorn seemed to favor Heyer) stuck with Jansen even after Heyer returned from his sprained shoulder. Heyer ended up playing but out of position at LT after Chris Samuels went down. All we learned from that experience is that he is a mediocre left tackle. But that doesn't dim his prospects at RT. Contrary to what the Washington Times article seems to infer about Heyer not being starting material, I would pose the thought that in MOST cases of younger players at 6'5 and 325 starting on the OL they need reps to be able to acquire the necessary leverage to be effective. The fact at 24 Heyer is not a finished product like Joe Thomas (who was the #2 pick in the draft) is no reason to cast him to the side. A NUMBER of Redskins are going to be learning on the field in 2009, hopefully including the three #2 picks that were made in 2008. Given the lack of cap space in 2009 to bring in veteran free agents it would appear as if we need to fully evaluate those players we do have even more closely. Joe Bugel is not going to be comfortable in the role of managing a transition where he might have to say goodbye to both Jansen and Randy Thomas for 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The problems with the OL were not coaching, but age and injuries of the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DixieFlatline Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 What makes you think Zorn preferred Heyer over Jansen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21DIEHARDSKINSFAN21 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 honestly i like stephon heyer at Lt better then Rt. but gettin rid of thomas and jansen is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 We really needed to see Stephon Heyer at RT in 2008 so a better judgment about his future could be made, instead Bugel (Zorn seemed to favor Heyer) stuck with Jansen even after Heyer returned from his sprained shoulder. Zorn stuck with Jansen because Jansen was a stronger run blocker and he improved enough with his pass protection that he felt comfortable leaving him in there. Considering that at the time the running game was the bread-and-butter of this offense, it was probably the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndorf25 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 What do people think of Jansen moving to Guard? IMO Jansen's strength as a mauler would be ideal for the Guard position given his deteriorating lateral footwork that is a requisite for the Tackle position. His leadership is a certain asset and the move to Guard would retain that, plus extend this great Redskin's career in a way that can still benefit the team. Sorry, probably the wrong thread to pose this question in...mods, have your way. As for a new O-line coach...I think it's time for a youth movement given the new coaching regime. i tend to agree with the OP's points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebowski Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Snyder needs fire up the jet and go throw as much money at Alex Gibbs to unretire as it takes. Been saying it for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Bulldog, my thoughts exactly. It's time for a new era in oline coaching here in DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPortJGibbs89 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Snyder needs fire up the jet and go throw as much money at Alex Giggs to unretire as it takes. Been saying it for months.Do you mean Alex Gibbs, he was the guy he coached the O-line in Denver for awhile and Atlanta right? He is a great teacher of the zone blocking scheme which would fit Portis to perfection... I may be wrong but is this who you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 What do people think of Jansen moving to Guard? IMO Jansen's strength as a mauler would be ideal for the Guard position given his deteriorating lateral footwork that is a requisite for the Tackle position. His leadership is a certain asset and the move to Guard would retain that, plus extend this great Redskin's career in a way that can still benefit the team.Sorry, probably the wrong thread to pose this question in...mods, have your way. I've been wondering about this as well. Tackles, especially right tackles, generally move inside (ie Ray Brown) in their later years. I'd let Jansen compete with Rinehart and Brown for a starting job next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 What makes you think Zorn preferred Heyer over Jansen? The fact that he benched him and began the season with Heyer at RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Buges, as a hold-over, even with all of his experience, is not in step with the new philosophical direction of this offense and as such should be replaced with someone who is. His lines have long fit the Coryell mold and were built for bruising power rushing attacks and deep QB drops. As much as I love the man, there's no sense in keeping him around for nostalgia's sake. Surprisingly though, when I re-watched the games, I found that this line's strength in run blocking was in it's lateral movement and not straight away and breaking into the second level. Most, if not all, of their breakdowns came in pass protection (big surprise). The man can still coach, just not for what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree. Buges was great, but its time to get modern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexxskins Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree 100% bulldog. But, there are memebers here who will and have already disagreed with you, simply because of who you are talking about. I swear it seems like some members tend to care more about players/coaches and their legendary status' than the team itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsLoveAffair2136 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yeah right, Zorn kept the same ground game and we fnished 4th. are you people serious? dont fix whats not broken, we need to work on the freaking pass game and thats NOT Bugels Fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedinBurgNGold Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree 100% bulldog.But, there are memebers here who will and have already disagreed with you, simply because of who you are talking about. I swear it seems like some members tend to care more about players/coaches and their legendary status' than the team itself. Well Said. It's also like that with Management and some members. It's almost as if since Danny is the Owner, we have to respect him and follow his lead no matter what.:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDALERT Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I have to agree with Bulldog. I couldn't understand why Heyer wasn't inserted back into the lineup after his injury had healed. Eventhough we love Bugel to death, he has to adjust to change and what's best for the team and that's young more athletic type of OL. Even Portis somewhat told us the story about our OL. But it's nothing new that most of us Skins fans didn't know. The fact of the matter is the majority of our starting OL is built for the run and that's it. And that's Bugel's expertise and not pass protecting OL. Now! I'm not saying that they need to let Bugel be on his happy way, but we need to really take a serious look at what we have and who we can develop already on the roster to pass protectors. We said the same thing about Dockery when he was on the team, that he wasn't that much of a pass blocker but a helluva run blocker. Well, it seems he's doing okay as a pass blocker playing for the Broncos. And Heyer IMO remind me somewhat of Dockery and probably could start if he played for another team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Jones Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 First, didn't the Ravens take the other MD OLine product at the same time Heyer came out? And hasn't that player performed better? Simple better talent evaluation. The only problem I have with Bugel is the fact he sometimes sticks with his veterans longer than he should. Perhaps he knows the players behind suck, but perhaps he didn't give Heyer or Rinehart a chance. Heyer started out well, but did take a step up this season, IMHO. Still, the line got old and we have no future plan to fix it next season and that is not Buges fault. He can only coach what he is given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If you're given brick and mortar, even an idiot can build a wall 6 foot high. If you're given a gigantic pile of horse manure, even a genius can't build a 6 foot wall with it, no matter how much horse manure you have. In other words, anybody could build an OLine with 1st and 2nd round picks. All we've given Buges for the last 10 years is horse manure. Look at the people not drafting the talent at OL, not the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatman28 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 To implement the WCO that Zorn favors the team has to change its approach to evaluating and selecting OL. The WCO favors quicker, more athletic OL who are adept at pass protection for a qb using that 3-5 step drop and release.The Redskins also need to get younger along the OL across the board. While Joe Bugel has been a legendary OL coach in the past, I think at 68 his fondness for the power ground game and keeping 30's veterans on the roster instead of developing younger players is out of step with what Jim Zorn needs on his staff now. Rennie Simmons retired recently and I think Joe needs to follow him. The Gibbs regime is over. I can see on defense where maintaining Blache and Gray has worked, largely because Blache has decided not to entertain major changes to the scheme which takes the veteran performers out of what they do best. On offense a number of players are miscast and the team can't allow sentimentality to dictate who is kept and who plays in 2009. We really needed to see Stephon Heyer at RT in 2008 so a better judgment about his future could be made, instead Bugel (Zorn seemed to favor Heyer) stuck with Jansen even after Heyer returned from his sprained shoulder. Heyer ended up playing but out of position at LT after Chris Samuels went down. All we learned from that experience is that he is a mediocre left tackle. But that doesn't dim his prospects at RT. Contrary to what the Washington Times article seems to infer about Heyer not being starting material, I would pose the thought that in MOST cases of younger players at 6'5 and 325 starting on the OL they need reps to be able to acquire the necessary leverage to be effective. The fact at 24 Heyer is not a finished product like Joe Thomas (who was the #2 pick in the draft) is no reason to cast him to the side. A NUMBER of Redskins are going to be learning on the field in 2009, hopefully including the three #2 picks that were made in 2008. Given the lack of cap space in 2009 to bring in veteran free agents it would appear as if we need to fully evaluate those players we do have even more closely. Joe Bugel is not going to be comfortable in the role of managing a transition where he might have to say goodbye to both Jansen and Randy Thomas for 2009. I agree with all of it! Rabach can go also! :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanTaylorthePunterSlayer Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 First, didn't the Ravens take the other MD OLine product at the same time Heyer came out? And hasn't that player performed better? Simple better talent evaluation.The only problem I have with Bugel is the fact he sometimes sticks with his veterans longer than he should. Perhaps he knows the players behind suck, but perhaps he didn't give Heyer or Rinehart a chance. Heyer started out well, but did take a step up this season, IMHO. Still, the line got old and we have no future plan to fix it next season and that is not Buges fault. He can only coach what he is given. I believe Heyer was on our team before Gaither (The other MD tackle) decided that he wanted to enter the supplemental draft (I think the rumor was that he was flunking out at UMD?). The Ravens put the highest bid on the kid and got him in that draft, but there were some question marks on him and he didn't do so hot his first year out. That said, he's developed into a solid player now and I wish we had him on our team... I don't think Buges should go, he's done a helluva job. The players are old, and the HC has final say on who starts and who doesn't. Zorn stuck with Jansen after Heyer was healed because we were gashing folks. I think we all agree that we need some young players, but I'm not set on getting rid of one of the best OLine coaches ever.:2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Frankly, all offensive holdovers should go. They stayed on to help a rookie head coach last year. Now, it's time for Zorn to bring more of his own guys. He sinks or swims with his guys and not Gibbs holdovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebowski Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Do you mean Alex Gibbs, he was the guy he coached the O-line in Denver for awhile and Atlanta right? He is a great teacher of the zone blocking scheme which would fit Portis to perfection... I may be wrong but is this who you are referring to? Yes. That was a typo. Alex Gibbs, father of zone blocking. Do whatever it takes to come back to coaching. Right now he is a consultant for the Falcons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Khan Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Yes. That was a typo. Alex Gibbs, father of zone blocking. Do whatever it takes to come back to coaching. Right now he is a consultant for the Falcons. No he is not a consultant for the Falcons. He coaches the offensive line for the Houston Texans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Do you mean Alex Gibbs, he was the guy he coached the O-line in Denver for awhile and Atlanta right? He is a great teacher of the zone blocking scheme which would fit Portis to perfection... I may be wrong but is this who you are referring to? Alex Gibbs is also known to be one of the dirtiest coaches in the game and is generally held responsible for teaching Denver's O-line to cut block D-lineman's legs and can/has caused injuries. No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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