Manning's Pass to Wayne (Redskins Related)

[RSanz]

I think now that Campbell has the "no interceptions" weight off his back, he'll be more willing to make throws downfield. I don't think it's the playcalling (I think Zorn DID call deep plays), but I think it was Campbell trying to take care of the ball and be perfect that made him hesitant to let it rip.

I think he'll starting taking more risks downfield now.

[texasthunder]

While watching the Colts and Steelers game, I witnessed a fifty yard pass (in the air) by Manning that got tipped by the DB and Wayne was able to pull it in and score.

These things happen when you throw the ball down field. You get pass interference calls, you long receptions, and yes you will also get interceptions. However, you have to take the good w/ the bad.

The Redskins have to start doing more of this, They have to start taking a minium of 5 shots per game of over forty yards in the air. Not only will this enable us to get at least (on average) two big plays a game, but it will also open the running game even more.

Your Thoughts?

But did you also hear the announcers say that the completion you are talking about was the first one on 158 attempts ???

And that ratio is by an Indy team that has three pretty darn good recievers and a QB with tons of experience in his offencive scheme.

Sure the long ball is exciting, and you cannot deny that it speads the field and opens up the running game. But at what risk ??

[Voice_of_Reason]

I agree with the OP 100%

With whom you ask? With everyone Moss, Devin Thomas, ARE, Cooley, Davis

Imagine we have- 1st and short or 2nd and short

We should send at least 3 receivers deep on the same play and give Jason fielders choice.

This is the kind of play i'm talking about:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80aba550

I've seen the 'Skins run THAT EXACT PLAY in games before. Here's the difference, sometimes it's covered. SHOCKER!

If it was always open, then the average score of every game would be like 198-205.

Unlike some morons and football no-nothings, I DO NOT want JC to just wing it down field if the guy does not have position. (This includes Doc Walker.)

You do that, and you get INTs and incompletes when there is no need for them. You call plays with deep options, and then if it's not there, your read progression takes you elsewhere.

And btw, Moss is THE ONLY deep threat on the team. ARE is not. He's a crossing route/hitch guy who works best from the slot, Thrash is just not fast enough to get separation, and Thomas has not shown that he can do it yet.

End of discussion. Stop whinning. It's going to be ok. Just be slightly patient. Just keep repeating 6-3, 6-3, 6-3, and remember what record you thought the team would have on September 5th after the Giants game.

[Jumbo]

ARE gets seperation just fine. If JC doesn't trust a WR enough to throw to him when he is open, then find another QB. Zorn trusts Jansen just fine, only idiots like you say and think stupid **** like that.

Careful.

The next time you roll out an insult like that in response to a poster making a fairly pedestrian view (especially since he backed it up a bit) you'll can get a vacay.

This is your free pass official warning. :point2sky

[djbubba4life]

hey, throwing the ball deep worked against dallas first time around didnt it?

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

Campbell misses reads. Gibbs said it, Saunders said it and Zorn said it.

He missed Yolder and Randel for Wide open touchdowns on two different drives vs the Steelers Zorn said.

He goes to his 1st progression then his second and feels the pressure and throws to the check down.

Collins could get to his 5th progession in less time then Campbell gets to his second because he knew where everyone on the field was suppose to be.

[CRobi21]

campbell misses reads. Gibbs said it, saunders said it and zorn said it.

He missed yolder and randel for wide open touchdowns on two different drives vs the steelers zorn said.

He goes to his 1st progression then his second and feels the pressure and throws to the check down.

Collins could get to his 5th progession in less time then campbell gets to his second because he knew where everyone on the field was suppose to be.

stop posting!

[BigRedskinDaddy]

It was a fluke play. You want to pass deep for fluke plays?

1) That should have been INT'd

2) They have Gonzalez and Harrison taking attention away from Wayne

You do not throw deep, just to throw deep. 3rd and long? Sure, why not as long as the team is prepared for an INT. Otherwise play smart football.

Taking a deep shot here and there loosens up the 8 or 9 man fronts that we're seeing so much of now. 4 things can happen: 1) complete, 2) incomplete, 3) pass-interference, or 4) INT. IMO only one of those is bad. Even the incomplete pass puts it in the mind of the defense that we MAY try to stretch the field again.

[darrelgreenie]

I've seen the 'Skins run THAT EXACT PLAY in games before.

I'm glad you watched the vid.

Don't you think we should run plays like that more often?

Also, in the future do me a favor? Don't use my post to launch a diatribe against a bunch of stuff that i'm not even saying. Cool?

My response was to GenMgr, who asked:

With whom? Santana Moss is double-covered.

My response to his question:

I agree with the OP 100%

With whom you ask? With everyone Moss, Devin Thomas, ARE, Cooley, Davis

Imagine we have- 1st and short or 2nd and short

We should send at least 3 receivers deep on the same play and give Jason fielders choice.

This is the kind of play i'm talking about:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80aba550

Then you reply to my post with........

I've seen the 'Skins run THAT EXACT PLAY in games before.

Did i say that we don't run these types of plays? - No

Here's the difference, sometimes it's covered. SHOCKER! If it was always open, then the average score of every game would be like 198-205.

Did i say that throwing deep always works? -No

I DO NOT want JC to just wing it down field if the guy does not have position

Did i say that JC should 'wing it downfield'? -No

Look. Its cool if you think the Redskins aren't capable of going deep and that Moss is our only receiver capable of getting open deep. I disagree. I remember seeing ARE and Thrash, although Thrash is the last person i want to see running a deep route, catch long passes last year. And I don't know about you, but i consider any dude (DT11) that runs 4.3 a deep threat.

But, don't turn my response to GenMgr into something its not.

IMO the Redskins should throw deep more often.

HTTR!

[Voice_of_Reason]

stop posting!

At the risk of a ban, +1.

But I do have a legit comment: this is what the media folks do all the time, they take little snipits of conversations out of context. I watched the Jim Zorn show, and here's what he said in a nutshell: It was not JC's best game, the rush got to him, he had guys open, but some times, due to the rush, he never got to them in the read progression.

btw, there are generally not 5 progressions, in that most often there are only 3-4 people in the route.

In case you missed it, Peyton Manning, a sure fire future hall of famer, had to play a virtually perfect game to beat the Steelers. And that ended up as 21-40 for 240 yards. Which is about 50%, which isn't that good. With absolutely no disrespect to JC, Peyton Manning in this phase of his career is better than JC.

Eli Manning was 19-32 for 199.

Gerard: 18-32, 200

etc.

Pittsburgh's defense is AWESOME. They've made all the QBs they've played this year look pretty average.

[GenMgr]

Taking a deep shot here and there loosens up the 8 or 9 man fronts that we're seeing so much of now. 4 things can happen: 1) complete, 2) incomplete, 3) pass-interference, or 4) INT. IMO only one of those is bad. Even the incomplete pass puts it in the mind of the defense that we MAY try to stretch the field again.

If you do not have a history of throwing downfield or do not have more than one wide receiver with a "Scary" reputation then taking a deep shot here and there will not open up the 8 or 9 man fronts for a game. Moss is the only receiver that everyone "fears" so even if he is on the field, it doesn't matter. The Giants, Eagles and Cowboys are going to rush all day regardless.

Also, other teams are realizing from watching tape that they can get to JC and rattle him before he has time to see the field so the long, downfield throw is null and void.

[Voice_of_Reason]

But, don't turn my response to GenMgr into something its not.

IMO the Redskins should throw deep more often.

HTTR!

Chuckle. I think I had an EPIC FAIL of a post. My apologies. Let me see if I can band-aid it back together a little bit.

Because really, I was agreeing with you. They have run that play (it's a staple of the WCO, hit the outside receiver between the corner and saftey in that particular defense) in the past, and actually, JC doesn't throw it very well.

I can remember 2 instances vividly where he's overthrown Moss out of bounds (one was a home game, play was to the away sideline going to the right end zone, I was there and it happened right in front of me), the other was an away game.

I think that they SHOULD call plays with deep options, that play being one of them. I think the only point I would make is that they DO call those types of plays more often that we think, but the ball doesn't find the reciever.

The diatribe was not intended for you, it was intended for some other dingdongs who believe that we should just chuck it down field indiscriminately. You didn't say anything like that at all. I should have created a seperate post for that. Fair 'nough?

[BigRedskinDaddy]

If you do not have a history of throwing downfield or do not have more than one wide receiver with a "Scary" reputation...

All the more reason to start taking some shots, and work Devin11 or Sleepy into the game a little more, I would say.

[GenMgr]

All the more reason to start taking some shots, and work Devin11 or Sleepy into the game a little more, I would say.

That's up to JC, he has to believe that Devin11 or Sleepy can make the catch. He doesn't have enough confidence in them to throw it.

[darrelgreenie]

Fair 'nough?

Cool, this rounds on me! HTTR!

We're all bros they way i see it.

Here's to the second half of the season.

[SkinsAllDay34]

To take a shot deep a few things have to happen:

1. The O line has to give JC time, that did not happen at all last week, and they better fix it fast.

2. The receiver has to get enough separation to seem to be a reasonable target, and dont just Brett Farve it up there, but sometimes you have to, and hope you get a miracle catch, or PI.

3. JC has to throw it too him. He has done it once this year against NO.

That might be captain obvious, but it starts with the O line and getting open.

[Voice_of_Reason]

To take a shot deep a few things have to happen:

1. The O line has to give JC time, that did not happen at all last week, and they better fix it fast.

2. The receiver has to get enough separation to seem to be a reasonable target, and dont just Brett Farve it up there, but sometimes you have to, and hope you get a miracle catch, or PI.

3. JC has to throw it too him. He has done it once this year against NO.

That might be captain obvious, but it starts with the O line and getting open.

1. Yes. Though, let's also say that the Steelers defense is pretty damn good, so if you're looking at just that game, it's a bit misleading. But yes, overall, they need to protect better.

2. Agree-disagree. The receiver has to get enough separation or position (which in the NFL is akin to separation) to allow the QB a target to throw the ball to. I am COMPLETELY AGAINST indiscriminately "Brett Favreing" it up there on a wing and a prayer. a PI is unlikely, an INT or Incomplete is much more likely, and the least likely is a completion. So more bad than good can happen. If it's incomplete, then you're "behind the sticks" as it were, potentially facing 3rd and long, which is hard to pick up. If it's on a second and short, I can ALMOST see it, but I would prefer a 5-10 yard completion rather than a "wing it" approach.

3. Completely agree. JC's been on target with a number of deep throws this year, but he's got to get the ball to the receiver. He didn't do that in the Pittsburgh game.

As for "it all starts up front," that's true, but you have to have all three parts working. great line blocking and a bad pass or covered receiver, eh, it's all bad in the end.

[JoeGibbsRypenGClark91]

stop posting!

Go tuck yourself in.

[Bacon]

With whom? Santana Moss is double-covered.

Let Devin Thomas earn his paycheck.

[CRobi21]

Go tuck yourself in.

Go not be dumb.

[GenMgr]

Let Devin Thomas earn his paycheck.

You have to convince JC.

[Warhead36]

The biggest problem is that we're not explosive enough on offense to afford throwing away a play just to "take a shot." Of course if Moss is running open deep downfield you hit him, but we don't make enough big plays to the point where we can afford it. Most of our scoring drives are long 10+ play drives where making just one mistake, whether its a penalty, sack, or even one incomplete pass, kills us. Thats also why you don't see JC taking very many chances. We're good enough to beat anyone if we play perfect, mistake free football but we just aren't explosive enough to overcome mistakes.

[NoCalMike]

The thing is, even when a WR is double-covered there are still many options.

As a QB, you can take it upon yourself to just purposely throw the ball 20 yards over everyone's head because that still sends a message that the offense is looking to move the ball down the field.

Right now our offense seems to be stuck in the mode where if Moss is covered, we are going to check all the way down to whoever is basically standing a yard off the line of scrimmage, merely so the pass is completed, yet the ball carrier has nowhere to go.

Throwing the ball downfield, even when it is an incompletion still sends a message.

[Hubbs]

You have to convince JC.

And not without reason. JC has said that he doesn't fully trust Thomas yet, because sometimes he runs the wrong routes. The rook's gotta step up.

[jrfriedm]

But did you also hear the announcers say that the completion you are talking about was the first one on 158 attempts ???

And that ratio is by an Indy team that has three pretty darn good recievers and a QB with tons of experience in his offencive scheme.

Sure the long ball is exciting, and you cannot deny that it speads the field and opens up the running game. But at what risk ??

Umm...You obviously heard wrong. They said that was the 158th between Manning and Wayne for a TD. for a gain of over 50 yds.