Why do people think that social programs give money to the lazy or promote laziness?

[zoony]

I voted for Obama but I loathe welfare, section 8/public housing, and other poverty-inducing programs. I hope these do not increase during his administration.

I'm not against dangling carrots, or helping people to better themselves at all. I think it should be in the form of education grants, job training, low interest business loans, etc.

I guess you can call that social welfare- though quite a bit different than what we have in place today- which is a complete failure. Not sure how anyone can defend it, quite honestly. But oh well.

Hopefully Obama is serious about the Change thing

[jmuJeff]

Until I see somebody or a situation where it has not been abused and somebody has taken advantage of it and bettered themselves I will refuse to believe any rhetoric to the contrary.

My wife is terminally ill with cancer and pulls social security due to an inability to work on a consistent basis. Without that social security $$$, we'd be drowning in medical expenses (and YES, I have a good job with excellent health insurance...even the best health insurance doesn't fully soften the financial blow of cancer).

[wilsonian]

There's a saying in Tennessee- and in many parts of the West as well where there are National Parks with bear problems.

Don't Feed The Bears

in the Smoky Mountains and out west in places like Yellowstone, it was common in the 60s and 70s. Very soon bears forgot how to forage and survive for themselves, and they became a real problem. Bear attacks were out of control, and bear populations over-ran populated areas. It wasn't the bear's fault- despite people having the best of intentions, feeding the bears and giving them handouts made them reliant on humans to find food- it was the only way they knew how.

The National Park Service implemented a very controversial program that was a resounding success- they simply cut the bears off, and made feeding them illegal. The bears very soon learned how to forage for themselves and survive on their own. National Parks have some of the healthiest bear populations with extremely low incidents of attacks nowadays.

Matthew 13:13

What he said.

[Capt. Kaos]

My issues stem from a very personal incident.

My mother had surgery on both feet and was out of work for 3 months recovering. Up to this point she had the same job for 11 years and was going back to work as soon as she physically was able.

She asked for some assisstance getting through those 3 months and was turned down. In the same breath the lady handed a fully capable female a handful of food stamps and a check. The female proceeded to walk out the door and get in her very new automobile.

So yeah, I'm a bit bitter and tend to think of people on public assisstance as lazy.

"Work harder, millions of people on welfare are depending on you"

Thats a bumper sticker but I believe that in truth we find jest.

[Destino]

That doesn't mean you should support the formation of such an organization- just that if there is one adhere to it to the point that you are doing so overly.

I agree with you. But that wasn't what I was responding to.

Jesus clearly understood and supported the concept of paying taxes when there was no other option.

That doesn't mean Jesus would vote for people that support a large socialist federal goverment (i.e. liberals).

It also doesn't mean he would have voted against it. We don't know his stance on food stamps, welfare, etc etc. The bible speaks to how you as an individual should behave when confronted by those in need or when asked to give in the portions we are discussing.

What the bible does not say however is that we are supposed to help people help themselves, implying that those that won't should go without mercy or help from us in anyway. The bible makes no such distinction. You are instructed to help to a fault not err on the side of conservative spending.

[#98QBKiller]

I voted for Obama but I loathe welfare, section 8/public housing, and other poverty-inducing programs. I hope these do not increase during his administration.

There's no reason to believe they should.

[GrapeApe]

You missed the point of my statement, the poster that I was answering said "If you want something mis-managed, let the government run it." I was pointing out how rediculous a statement that is by pointing to the DoD, in that if his statement were true then the DoD would be mis-managed since the government runs it and since its mismanaged it needs to be either cut or have its spending reduced.

Sorry Asbury. My mistake.

[laurent]

I've seen it happen with my own eyes in Germany. Heck, I have somebody in my immediate family that took welfare and and at the same time had jobs that paid him under the table for years.

His reasoning was that he stood to make more money that way than if he actually went out and took a real job.

It's disgusting, at the same time my feeling is that abuse comes with the territory in all walks of life. If I can help people in genuine peril I'll gladly accept that there will always be percentage of people that will exploit my good will.

It sucks, but it's the nature of things the way I see it.

What simply cannot wrap my mind around is an attitude where people are willing to see others suffer for the sole reason of denying aid to those willing to exploit the system.

[Seabee1973]

My wife is terminally ill with cancer and pulls social security due to an inability to work on a consistent basis. Without that social security $$$, we'd be drowning in medical expenses (and YES, I have a good job with excellent health insurance...even the best health insurance doesn't fully soften the financial blow of cancer).

STuff liek taht is understandable but the sytem is broke I knew a guy back in the 80s who was in a MC acident he could work but collected 1500 a month SSI and had won a lump sum of 30,000. He blew it all. and didnt work because anything he made working over like 600 dollars they would start to take dollar for dollar out of his SSI

[Corcaigh]

Government welfare exists at many levels and in many forms.

Companies get special funding and 'set-asides' for contracts, based on the most tenuous of reasons. Alaska Native, is just one (long pre-dating Palin) where a company with essentially a mailing address in Alaska gets funding not available to other companies. Similarly minority-owned (even if said minority is a multi-millionaire with a PHD from Princeton and a Harvard MBA) gets hand outs for their business on government contracts.

Corporate socialism (and social engineering) is rampant in this country - we need to eliminate that as much as reduce and prevent the growth of waste in individual welfare.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Lol. Crab legs have to be the least bang for your buck when it comes to quantity of food.

lol I know. I cant count how many times this happened. They were the big Alaskan crab legs too, and it usually was around 40 bucks.

[Peeping Wizard]

For every "lazy" person you mention, there are thousands upon thousands that are in need.

How do you know? Do you have anything substinative to back up that belief? Just because you believe that is the case does not make it true.

[Mark The Homer]

It's not that the social programs are bad. It's the abuse of them that is bad. There are people who are experts at abusing these systems, and that is the problem.

[Destino]

How do you know? Do you have anything substinative to back up that belief? Just because you believe that is the case does not make it true.

You made and argument that applies to you as well. Do you have anything to make you feel otherwise other than individual examples of abuse. Everything is abused to some extent, even office workers abuse the system as they type on this forum while on the clock (Note: I'm in sales so I can do whatever I want with my time).

[pjfootballer]

How many people have become that way that you know?

I understand the theory, but it doesn't necessarily translate into reality.

The mortgage bailout I can agree. But most people aren't going into situations thinking this.

I work for the government and assess people for millions of dollars a year. Those people are ****ed but and aren't getting bailed out. They are also not expecting to be.

I see them everyday. I work at a hospital that helps uninsured people apply for county charities, national charities and medicaid/disability programs.

Some examples of what I see:

1) Citizen comes in and actually qualifies for medicaid under the income and asset guidelines, but doesn't make the effort to bring me the paperwork (income verification, id/ss cards, birth cert) to help them qualify.

2) Same citizen refused to file child support papers (requirement to apply for adult with adsent parent in the house) and most of the time they won't because they are scared or they are lying and he IS in the home.

3) I worked in a food stamp office for 1 1/2 years with the state of FL. Same people, month after month, year after year, basically had no incentive to get a job when the gov't is feeding them. Now, I don't mind when they are working and just don't make enough money to cover all expenses and the food stamps help.

4) Perpetual cycle of poverty. Grandma gets FS (foodstamps), momma gets them, cousin gets them. Why shouldn't I get them. No incentive to further education to stand on your own 2 feet. Both my neices have applied for grants and qualify because my sister is a single mom and couldn't afford college for them. They've taken the initiative to educate themselves. One is 21 the other is 19.

5)Disabilities. While there are people out there with legitimate disabilities, at least 7 of 10 applicants will not and do not qualify, because quite frankly they aren't disabled. They clog up the system with their "bad backs", "trick Knees" and "Diabetes" (which is not disabling and can be control, and it makes it bad for the people who have cancer, lost limbs (you have to lose 2 in our state- prosthesis will let you work with one) and Congestive Heart Failure/End Stage Renal Disease.

So yes, I see it everyday. There are alot of people who think that gov't programs are an entitlement and not something to help you get on your feet. Most of the programs set up are not for long term. It's supposed to be a temporary situation until you are able to get on your feet, pay your rent, pay your bills, provide health care and feed your family.

I feel sorry for the legit disabilities because their claims are being held up by the endless applications. Did you know that here in Charlotte, they are "ONE" year behind all disability hearings that they actually had to send some cases to Portland, Oregon to help them catch up? Pitiful. I see 55 year old men still living with their mother that haven't worked in a year or more. They say they're no jobs, but hell, get a job at McDonals. $6/hr is better than $0/hr. At least you'd be contributing and trying. Hell, I dug ditches in the heat of FL, put in pool equipment and lugged heavy pipes around for $100/week with my Dad, just to earn money until I found the job with the state. And I'm college educated.

Anyway. Sorry to be so long and I hope some of my information helps you to understand what's really going on out there. I'm at the front lines. Don't let what the media or gov't says fool you.

[helptheSKINS]

I haven't seen many people argue against drug testing to receive welfare and other social programs where money is redistributed. I was expecting a bigger argument. I'm ashamed to say I judged.

[pjfootballer]

My wife is terminally ill with cancer and pulls social security due to an inability to work on a consistent basis. Without that social security $$$, we'd be drowning in medical expenses (and YES, I have a good job with excellent health insurance...even the best health insurance doesn't fully soften the financial blow of cancer).

Using one as the primary and the other as the seconday for co-pays and co-insurances. Very smart and she deserves the disability. My uncle did the same thing. He WORKED for an insurance company and when he was terminally ill, he applied for Medicare/Medicaid. He worked all his life and paid in and there was nothing wrong with what he did or what your wife is doing.:applause:

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Do people think that the American dream is to work hard, make a lot of money, and keep working hard, or is it to work hard, make a lot of money, not have to work as hard any longer, and then keep making a lot of money?

[MoeRedskins]

Don't forget:

Matthew 22:21 "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's."

and as long as we're at it

Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

I'm confused here. Did you read the whole conversation that you were originally a part of or just jump in like you had no idea what was going on. Your posts make no sense.

[HighOnHendrix]

I disagree with most of your post but the part that really bugs me is what you left out. HOW ARE THEY PAYING FOR THESE DRUGS? If they need govt assistance, how on earth can they be paying for drugs. Either they are using my tax money to pay for their drugs or they are stealing additional money/property to pay for it.

I only left that out because it's so obvious; that was the point of the whole back-and-forth about it. I understand the point you're making and agree: I don't want my tax dollars spent second-hand on a drug habit. BUT, such a proposal as drug testing just seems to me to be not only overly authoritarian, but also an open invitation to create yet another sprawling and ultimately useless paper-pushing bureaucracy that will waste even more money and effect as much power over people as they can possibly garner for themselves. Because that's what bureaucracies do; they exist to gain and use power over others and to then perpetuate that power. So looking at it pragmatically, which will cost us more? The way it is, or testing them? It's clearly the latter. Not only will you have to pay to administer these tests, then you will have to incarcerate the people you catch afoul of said tests. I guarantee you that will more than offset the money we would get out of paying them for "assistance".

With all that being said, I frankly think that the number of people on "assistance" abusing drugs is not all that high. They'd rather spend it on whatever else from what I've seen. Dunno if there's a pee test to see if somebody has a giant flat-screen in their crib, but technology is muther****er nowadays!

[HighOnHendrix]

So yes, I see it everyday. There are alot of people who think that gov't programs are an entitlement and not something to help you get on your feet. Most of the programs set up are not for long term. It's supposed to be a temporary situation until you are able to get on your feet, pay your rent, pay your bills, provide health care and feed your family.

Great post. I can't speak for anyone else, but you hit on what really gets me mad about this kind of thing: people who abuse the system. I don't have a problem with any citizen of our country who needs a little help getting that help, only taking what they need, and then returning to being a productive member of society. It's the people who leech off it that need to be purged from the system. I can't stand folks who are always trying to get over on other people. A guy I work with scoffed at me at lunch tonight because I forgot to pay and the cashier didn't notice, but then I remembered later and volunteered to pay. His kind of attitude is where the problem starts. Also I refute the notion that the government needs to be the source of helping those in need. That help can also come from charities, churches, neighbors, etc.

[HighOnHendrix]

It's not that the social programs are bad. It's the abuse of them that is bad. There are people who are experts at abusing these systems, and that is the problem.

Leave it to MTH to say in two lines of text what takes me like ten. I admire your succinctness.

[skinsfan44]

I have a disability (from an on-the-job injury). I am out of work and no one wants to hire me because of said disability.

I was even recently denied Social Security disability benefits after paying into it for 30 years.

I have pissed away all my savings and I am ready to cash in my 401k to help me keep from losing my house.

I was too proud to ask for help before, but I am in dire need now, but I still can’t get any help from the government.

Aren’t there any programs that are out there that are suppose to help people like me???

[HighOnHendrix]

You missed the point of my statement, the poster that I was answering said "If you want something mis-managed, let the government run it." I was pointing out how rediculous a statement that is by pointing to the DoD, in that if his statement were true then the DoD would be mis-managed since the government runs it and since its mismanaged it needs to be either cut or have its spending reduced.

That is mis-managed, too. I think by and large they do a better job than the civilian agencies, but they could use some trimming in the right places. Like those stories about thousand dollar hammers and toilet seats. DoD could be trimmed while retaining or enhancing our capability. Anyone who feels the administration of our government is not a collection of successive blunders should recall their visits to their local DMV. Just think about how much government is involved in you driving your car. You have to title it, register it; pay taxes on it; the government FORCES you to insure it; pay taxes for road upkeep; pay taxes on the gas you buy; many places make you pass an inspection; ditto emissions test; and if you speed or break any of a myriad of laws while driving, the police will fine or imprison you. We could easily do without some of this.

[dwbiggs]

All you have to do is look at France....and that will answer your question.